RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 5:15:57 PM)

where is this administrations policy that specifically stated that we are out "to win hearts and minds?"

That seems so last administration where we were going to be greeted as liberators as well.



Politesub53 -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 5:18:56 PM)

Merc, you deliberately overlook my point. You started a thread on the subject when Obama is President, but didnt when Bush was President. I am suggesting this isnt impartial. Do you not think saving lives was a better idea than keeping the embassy open. History has a long line of nations closing embassies abroad in times of crisis.

I dont get what you are suggesting about the terrorist and constipation either. Maybe i didnt get the analogy between pawn and castle. I would suggest the greater prize for the terrorists would have been if the plane had blown up over a built up area.



Mercnbeth -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 5:33:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Merc, you deliberately overlook my point. You started a thread on the subject when Obama is President, but didnt when Bush was President. I am suggesting this isnt impartial. Do you not think saving lives was a better idea than keeping the embassy open. History has a long line of nations closing embassies abroad in times of crisis.
Not having a time machine I can't recall the reasoning behind not posting. Sorry.

quote:

I dont get what you are suggesting about the terrorist and constipation either. Maybe i didnt get the analogy between pawn and castle. I would suggest the greater prize for the terrorists would have been if the plane had blown up over a built up area.
9/11 did many things. One thing it didn't do was create a propaganda image of the US as coward in the face of an attack. Granted I may be the only one seeing it this way, but abandoning the embassy did as much, if not more, for the cause of al Quada than if the terrorist plan succeeded.

The "isolated extremist" wasn't. Now he's labeled a "suspected terrorist". What's 'suspect'? He was taken off the airline with smoking underwear. You want to go with the corrupting the jury pool idea?



tazzygirl -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 5:39:27 PM)

British embassy in Yemen closedDigg it
Press Association, Sunday January 3 2010
The British embassy in Yemen has been closed for security reasons, the Foreign Office said.

The move comes after it was announced that the UK and US are jointly funding a counter-terrorism unit in Yemen - where the suspected Christmas Day airline attacker, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, is thought to have been radicalised.

A Foreign Office spokeswoman said the British embassy was closed "for security reasons" and a decision would be taken later as to whether it will reopen on Monday.

Earlier, Prime Minister Gordon Brown said the failed Detroit airliner plot was "a new type of threat and it is from a new source which is obviously Yemen, but there are many other potential sources in Somalia, as well as Afghanistan and Pakistan".

The US embassy in Yemen was also closed in response to "ongoing threats" from al Qaida.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2986315/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm#2989338

I believe their is a huge difference between "closing" and "deserting"

Other "Closings"

Background
From July 17, 1979, when Saddam Hussein first came to power in Iraq, until just
prior to the beginning of Operation Desert Storm in January 1991, the United States had
full diplomatic relations with Saddam Hussein’s government. On January 12, 1991, four
days before Operation Desert Storm, the United States closed its embassy doors in
Baghdad. At the time of its closing, the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad maintained a staff of
approximately 50 and an annual budget of $3.5 million. From 1991 until 2004, the
United States did not have diplomatic relations with Iraq.

http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS21867.pdf

US embassy in Yemen bombed


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/09/20089177649418697.html

ACCRA, Ghana, Aug. 31— The United States closed its Embassies in the West African nations of Ghana and Togo today because of security threats, officials said.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/01/world/world-news-briefs-2-us-embassies-closed.html

WASHINGTON, Dec. 17— The United States has closed 38 embassies in Africa for at least two days to protect employees against possible terrorist reprisals for the American air strikes on Iraq, Administration officials said today.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/12/18/world/on-two-fronts-security-us-closes-38-embassies-in-africa-as-a-precaution.html

The U.S. Embassy closed its offices in Saudi Arabia (search) Saturday to review security procedures, while embassy officials warned terrorists are close to launching an attack in the desert kingdom.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,102509,00.html

Amazingly, a quick google and i found all these. How incredibly intelligent of me... and its even more amazing Merc or Fox news couldnt seem to do the same.



housesub4you -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 5:53:07 PM)

Seems I remember a time not to long ago, that if you did not support the President and all his actions, you where the terrorist, you where helping the terrorist win, you where weakening our country (you, of course being anyone that disagrees with the President)

My my how times and thinking change when a party gets voted out.   If it helped the terrorist when people did not support the GOP President and spoke out against his policies in public, why is it not helping them now???  How come it's ok now to trash everything the President does and it does not aid the terrorist??  Seems some elected officials have forgotten there whining from a few years back

This is just a general thought Tazzy, not directed at you



tazzygirl -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 6:03:54 PM)

Trash?

(and i didnt take your post as personal)

They arent just trashing him, seems they are hanging him in effigy... again.

PLAINS, Ga. — The U.S. Secret Service says it is investigating an effigy of President Barack Obama found hanging from a building in the hometown of former President Jimmy Carter.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/03/obama-effigy-feds-probe-h_n_409922.html






Musicmystery -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 8:57:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

It would be nice if you, or anyone - including those looking so longingly and jealously to live in 'Merc-land'


Wait...what??? You own a country? You are always letting us know how rich you are but this is the first I had heard of you owning a country. Dang dats kewel. Does it have socialized medicine? What is the immigration policy? Are there quotas?

HST.


It's more of a Through the Looking Glass kind of world, where logic doesn't apply, and reason is treason.



philosophy -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 11:09:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Granted I may be the only one seeing it this way, but abandoning the embassy did as much, if not more, for the cause of al Quada than if the terrorist plan succeeded.



...are you sure Merc? Because, from where i sit, you've just suggested that the lives of anyone working at the Yemeni Embassy and any bystanders would have been a good price to pay in order to maintain some alleged advantage in a propaganda war.



luckydawg -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/5/2010 11:19:43 PM)

Im not sure philosophy, I htink you are mis reading Mercs position. He does use an "if" the plot suceeded.

If we lost the base, we would get a huge loss in the "propoaganda war", not maintain an alledged advantage.

I assume Merc meant to increase defenses of that and other forward operating bases in this "Propaganda war(seems like a rather biased term to use, but I will go with it for now)", and thwarting the oepreation, while projecting a Propaganda of calm, resolute strength, resutling in the deaths of our enemies.

Also there is nothing stopping the closed base from being attacked hurting the bystanders.



Politesub53 -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 3:21:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Merc, you deliberately overlook my point. You started a thread on the subject when Obama is President, but didnt when Bush was President. I am suggesting this isnt impartial. Do you not think saving lives was a better idea than keeping the embassy open. History has a long line of nations closing embassies abroad in times of crisis.
Not having a time machine I can't recall the reasoning behind not posting. Sorry.

quote:

I dont get what you are suggesting about the terrorist and constipation either. Maybe i didnt get the analogy between pawn and castle. I would suggest the greater prize for the terrorists would have been if the plane had blown up over a built up area.
9/11 did many things. One thing it didn't do was create a propaganda image of the US as coward in the face of an attack. Granted I may be the only one seeing it this way, but abandoning the embassy did as much, if not more, for the cause of al Quada than if the terrorist plan succeeded.

The "isolated extremist" wasn't. Now he's labeled a "suspected terrorist". What's 'suspect'? He was taken off the airline with smoking underwear. You want to go with the corrupting the jury pool idea?


Merc again you miss the point, although I suspect you understand what I am saying only too well. You have never, that I have seen, made a similar comment regards Bush, yet are happy to constantly do so regards Obama.

You also use the word abandoning, closing an embassy for a day or so is hardly that. As Tazzy and I have pointed out, is that the closing of embassies is nothing new.



Mercnbeth -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 6:07:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tazzygirl
Amazingly, a quick google and i found all these. How incredibly intelligent of me... and its even more amazing Merc or Fox news couldn't seem to do the same.

Not hard to amaze you huh?

I didn't look.

I knew someone would focus on the source of the Obama transcript. One problem Taz-not one reference was made to the FOX article. Was Obama's speech misrepresented?

An agenda based shot at the source of the message when the message sucks! Except in this case the only message was from the President. If it bothers you - take it up wih him, not FOX

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
...are you sure Merc? Because, from where i sit, you've just suggested that the lives of anyone working at the Yemeni Embassy and any bystanders would have been a good price to pay in order to maintain some alleged advantage in a propaganda war.
Your assumption is death. My assumption is that a strongly defended embassy wouldn't be attacked. We'll never know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Merc again you miss the point, although I suspect you understand what I am saying only too well. You have never, that I have seen, made a similar comment regards Bush, yet are happy to constantly do so regards Obama.
Polite, You may not have looked at my comments about Bush's waste of the military and resources, but they were made.

However, maybe you're missing the major point which is confirmed by you. There is no change generated by this administration, nor as you and others point out, any difference between Obama's actions and Bush's.

The situation was ripe for a change in actions and philosophy. Without sending any drone bombs there could have been a stance made. As it turns out, the two day absence points to the fear and inability of the US to be a presence exhibiting stability in an area that needs it.

I agree with you and Tazzy; "nothing new". You want to see that as a good thing - I won't argue the difference of opinion.



LadyEllen -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:22:22 AM)

You assume a strongly defended Embassy wont be attacked? Interesting assumption - is it based on previous alike situations or something more occult?

E



Mercnbeth -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:24:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

You assume a strongly defended Embassy wont be attacked? Interesting assumption - is it based on previous alike situations or something more occult?

E

No - I use the same thought process that a strongly defended Embassy would be. Except if you did use the occult.



thompsonx -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:31:05 AM)

quote:

If we lost the base, we would get a huge loss in the "propoaganda war", not maintain an alledged advantage.


It is an embassy not a base.
It looks from here as if the "propaganda war" only exists in your mind.
Our allies are bought and paid for so why would you care what the enemy thinks?

HST.



thompsonx -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:33:35 AM)

quote:

No - I use the same thought process that a strongly defended Embassy would be.


What does this sentence fragment mean?

HST.



mnottertail -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:36:46 AM)

quote:


Merc:
Your assumption is death. My assumption is that a strongly defended embassy wouldn't be attacked. We'll never know.


Saigon
Beirut
Nairobi
Kenya
Dar
and so on over the years.

Those were defended fairly strongly and were attacked. What leads you to assume Merc, that THIS time someone would go, 'Hey you dumbasses, we cant attack that;the fuckers defeneded'!
People who carry arms against others know that sombodies gonna fuckin die, they are just hoping to christ it aint 'me.' (a valid use of the royal sense of 'me' here, luckydawg).

Now, a heavily defended bank in the United States may not be laid siege to simply to avoid the appearance of a social faux paux. (Unless unemployment comes up to 40-50% perhaps) but in any army or military organization in the world (whether ideological or otherwise) mission is far more important then men by a factor of at least 1000.

Ron



thompsonx -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:38:05 AM)

quote:

9/11 did many things. One thing it didn't do was create a propaganda image of the US as coward in the face of an attack. Granted I may be the only one seeing it this way, but abandoning the embassy did as much, if not more, for the cause of al Quada than if the terrorist plan succeeded.


Perhaps you could validate either of those statements.
How does the U.S. appear cowardly when it invaded two countries in response to 9/11?
Clearly you are the only one who sees it that way.
You will have to walk me through this part about how it is better for a/q not to kill infidels.

HST.



thompsonx -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:42:10 AM)

quote:

I knew someone would focus on the source of the Obama transcript. One problem Taz-not one reference was made to the FOX article. Was Obama's speech misrepresented?


Only by you.
For the third time I will remind you that the Fox article did not make a connection between the airplane bomber and the embassy.
For fucks sake did you even read it?

HST.



LadyEllen -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:42:34 AM)

So again then, you choose to pour valuable personnel and materiel into the known position for attack, a position that is not of any strategic importance, when you know from experience that this will not deter the attackers and that any success they enjoy, as they have enjoyed in many similar situations in the past, may be disastrous to your overall position.

This, rather than closing down the Embassy for a few days whilst you assess, act on the intel received and pursue the plotters before they can attack.

"Dont let the enemy determine the place and time of battle" I think it goes, and its sound advice, for if you are willing to do as the enemy wants you will soon be defeated. Your position here and in other threads is that the Boston incident is not the action of an isolated hothead but of a serious organisation with deadly intent presenting a credible threat, and it seems you wish to play straight into their hands.

E




Mercnbeth -> RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender (1/6/2010 7:43:13 AM)

quote:

It looks from here as if the "propaganda war" only exists in your mind
.You must not read anything stated by this Administration. However based upon your other comments, reading comprehension isn't your strong point.

Ron,
Saigon was never overrun until the last helicopter left.

All the others had the lowest level security status at the time of the attack making comparison irrelevant.



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