RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve)

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/21/2004 5:08:39 AM

ShadowHwk

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lita {Tshai},

These are quite interesting and may well be helpful to many. You might consider reposting them under a fresh topic so that it is more clear as to the content.

ShadowHwk

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/21/2004 7:22:05 AM

trnmastr

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quote:

Every human being has choices. We make them daily. So unless your enslaving Rover, Spot, and Rex your favorite dogs, we are talking about human beings here.

100% agreed, in this day and age everyone has a choice to do with thier lives as they want.
I should have said, within the relationship. I just assumed that since we were talking about the lifestyle most would understand that.
But the fact of the matter is, when you but through all the BS that is the differance between a sub and slave. Choices.
Its not an opinion its a fact.

William

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/21/2004 8:32:51 AM

ShadowHwk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trnmastr

100% agreed, in this day and age everyone has a choice to do with thier lives as they want.
I should have said, within the relationship. I just assumed that since we were talking about the lifestyle most would understand that.
But the fact of the matter is, when you but through all the BS that is the differance between a sub and slave. Choices.
Its not an opinion its a fact.

William

A slave, being a human, with free will, can, at any moment, choose to walk away rather than obey. That is a choice, and no matter what is done to him or her, the choice remains. They may not exercise it, but they have it. Always.

Now you can argue that that a "true" slave (whatever that means) would never make such a choice - but the choice remains and can not be taken from them. Believe what you will, but there is always a choice.

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/21/2004 9:44:06 AM

trnmastr

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quote:

Now you can argue that that a "true" slave (whatever that means) would never make such a choice - but the choice remains and can not be taken from them. Believe what you will, but there is always a choice.

If you look at my post prior to this you will see that I agree with you.
Read that one

William

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/23/2004 6:47:28 PM

MistressDREAD

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I must make a small comment here:
To trnmastr (*THUD THUD THUD!)
We are all in agreement on the FreeDom to
choose issue here as this is a Alternate Lifestyle
Site ShadowHwk but the issue of choice for a slave
is done only one time at the beginning of any scene
or contract or relationship while the submissive can
choose thru out a scene or contract or relationship
to change it. If a slave chooses to leave a scene or
relationship or contract with out permission then
they are no longer a slave but a sub and thats the
protical of Our Lifestyle and with out protical We are
all simply Vanillas once again.....

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/24/2004 3:54:42 AM

trnmastr

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To: MistressDREAD <THUD THUD THUD>

In the the scening world a slave turn into to a sub and a sub turn into a slave. Hell in the scening world anything can happen and does. Thats why they call it a scene.
When you are talking about relationships its a differant story.

William

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/28/2004 6:15:34 AM

MistressDREAD

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The definition of submissive to slave only differ from a scene or a relationship if You as Dominant let it be so. I personally keep both lifestyle choices seperate and definitive so that there is no confusion as to what is what and which is which and those whom are suplicant around Me appreciate this clairity. If one * chooses to be slave I expect slave ways out of them.... if one * chooses to be submissive I expect submissive ways out of them... if either CHOOSES to CHANGE their posission in mid stream, what they desire to be then they are no longer either but a Switch.... and there is a saying about one whom acts as a Switch that I will not quote here. The original Thread was (RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve)) and I find that those whom have the anger issues are the same ones whom have been put on a confusing path as to what the definition of what each position holds for them not only with in the Lifestyle in scenes and protical but in their very life and choice to serve because of whom they come in contact with and the alternating views of Dominants. It is up to Us as Dominants to set the lines between what is and what is not and as a Group come to basic conformity of ways that have allready been set long befor We were here and a part of that which is Alternate and continue alone those lines not watering them down for the sake of ones living. And any human whom has a desire to serve as apposed to being served knows if they feel the desire to do this sum times or to do it all of the time and that defines if they are sub and slave and any whom do not give even those in servitude their due respect in thier choices would of course give the sub or slave cause to have anger by not honoring their positions and choice in thier servitude. As was stated We All are human there for have deep seated feelings in what We do and beleive in with in Our selfs and only desire to be given the respect of that position We choose with clairity and not confusion. Any thing else becomes simply a vanilla relationship with a kink added and taken away as one desires.

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/28/2004 6:51:45 AM

Voltare

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I think the issues have been dealt with quite well, though Dread I have to say...

quote:

It is up to Us as Dominants to set the lines between what is and what is not and as a Group come to basic conformity of ways that have allready been set long befor We were

It's not up to anyone to set any lines, it's up to those who enjoy the lifestye in whatever fashion they enjoy it to set lines for themselves. I have more then enough people who tell me where, when, and how to be without having to come to any sort of consensus.

As has been said more eloquantely by many, better then I might state, the label is far less important then the experience. When someone asks me if I am dominant, I say yes - this is a trait I possess. If someone asks me if I am a Master, I just shrug and smile. I usually figure the person who needs to ask my professed role in conversation, isn't going to have an appreciation for the answer I give anyway.

Stephan

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/28/2004 7:17:23 AM

MistressDREAD

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I do think that You misread sumthing I wrote Voltare and would never expect any Dominant to be * told any thing. I do beleive I stated for those of Us whom deem Our selfs Dominant to come to a concensus for the sake of the lifestyles proticals in general and to quell the anger that lies between the respect that is given in any lifestyle choice be it suplicant or Dominant, and I am sorry that You as a Dominant put Your self in a place to be told where , when and how to be. And I will be the first to admit that I am but a Simple Woman with not much eloquance at all but Dominant all the same.
Honor above all else!

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/28/2004 8:06:49 AM

Voltare

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No, I believe you were quite clear. My point is there is no need for consensus in the lifestyle, nor are standard protocals necessary. How my slave serves me, how your slave serves you not only are likely very different, but they should be different - as you have needs different from my own.

For purposes of discussion, we create labels and terms so that the concepts of submission are clear to all. What I consider a 'sub' and a 'slave' will probably be different from your belief (my short definition being a submissive needs to reserve the right to say no, a slave desires to have the right to say no taken away) when I use the word sub/slave, you and I have an idea that we are talking about a person who takes pleasure or finds fulfillment in a primarily subserviant or obedient role on either end of the spectrum, from strictly sexual, to strictly domestic, to somewhere inbetween.

As to situations where others tell me 'what to do' this is something that happens to all dominants (and submissives) who choose to interact in society. Street signs tell us how fast we may drive, there are laws regulating the type of building materials I use on my house, there are zoning laws that prohibit me from opening certain types of businesses downtown, as well as rules of ettiquitte permitting or restricting how I may dress my slave in public. If I wish to be part of society, then there are rules I must follow. Nobody forces me to leave my front door, I choose to be around vanilla people. If I don't like their rules - I can always go home.

Stephan

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/28/2004 4:31:05 PM

niele

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First of all, hello, lita! It's good to see a familiar name around here! Okay...down to business...
It is, of course, only this girls' opinion. But, she feels that there is a difference in each individual's mind between slave and sub. There are some who would call this one a sub. she calls herself a slave. To her, the difference lies in the level of control that she gives up, and also in some of the training. Perhaps she is mistaken, but she has always been of the impression that slaves are more extensively trained in many areas. But, as so M/many have stated in this thread, the only opinion that counts, when it comes right down to it, is Y/your own, and that os the O/one Y/you are with.
niele

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 1/31/2004 8:33:43 PM

glynda

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i believe it is simple. a submissive has her limits , a slave has her Masters. Many can not understand that, as simple as it is.... i have served and been trained as both..... neither is above the other in any pecking order.... it is just a different level of trust. one must know there Master very very well before one agrees to be there slave, for you are truly putting your life in there hands. A good Master will cherish that gift with his life, and will make sure no harm ever comes to her.

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 2/6/2004 9:43:59 AM

MrKing

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I have a working definiton for me that seems to work fairly well in sorting other people out.

Domanance and submissiveness are charactor traits, usually, but not always sexualized in some way. We all have some mixture of the two; it's rare to meet a "pure" Dominant or submissive type, and when you do, unless they are very much into corrective headwork and very self aware, you are more likely to think "asshole" or "doormat." In fact, I've met one such Dominant sadist, who got into BDSM entirely because he needed an ethical framework to allow him to be himself without creating reflexive chaos and hurt feelings. He just fucked with people reflexively until he got his leathers.

Master and slave are more chosen roles and statements of relationships. Unlike a personality trait, there's choice involved, at least to some degree.

But at the same time, there are personalilty traits involved, which is related to Dominance and submission, but it's more pack-related; the idea of a secure relitive position and types of responsiblity.

I've known slaves who are not at all submissive.

I'm a little more submissive than dominant, but I'm definitely a Master type; I've been called a "service-oriented" Master. T'was intended as an insult, I believe, but I find it quite accurate and not at all offensive.

My style of mastery dosen't look the same as a more naturally dominant person's but it's quite effective, and it's always backed by an ability to dominate at need. It's just that, when it comes to that, for me, it usually means I've screwed up some way. :)

I sometimes refer to my Mastery as "Picard-Style" leadership.

But the point is, that since these are in part personality traits, you have to allow for them in order to effectively master, or even top another. (and vice versa).

Even when you make the choice, "I will be an owner of human beings, or I will be a real slave," you still have to allow for that. I've owned slaves that were not particularly submissive at all - but they absolutely NEEDED to be owned, and feel owned. Which is not at all the same as feeling dominated. That appears to be a separate thing, and woe betide you if you mistake the one for the other.

I think the biggest difference between D/s and M/s though is the fact that M/s has to be done at a level of intensity that can be maintained consistantly, in public and in private. Now I know the line between the two is fuzzy indeed, confused by people using terms interchangably and all, but in essence, I have to, as Master and Owner, be able to maintain ALL the responsiblities toward all that I own, all the time, either by delegation or directly. Because, in TPE, they don't HAVE any responsiblities, they have duties. And the buck stops here.

If a slave screws up, it's my fault. If a submissive screws up, it's her fault. I guess that's the way I'd put it.

I don't consider one sort superior to the other, and indeed, one can be both submissive and slave. I consider them different things, different mindsets, appealing to different people.

Me, I don't get a rush from controlling behavior, desinging rituals of submission and such; the thing that turns my crank is knowing that this is my property and I can do with it as I wish. If I feel resistance, if I have to force compliance, I don't feel like an Owner; I start feeling more like - well, as if someone left a five dollar bill on the dresser afterwards. I feel used.

...Hey, we don't call them "kinks" for nothin'...

I guess the real purpose of such discussion is not to resolve the argument - there really is none - but rather to find those who's mindset agrees enough so that, well, heh, so that one can get usefully and properly laid. :^>

She that has ears, let her hear. :>

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 5/31/2004 10:33:15 PM

MistressDREAD

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 5/31/2004 10:38:35 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

The lifestyle today is so hung up on titles, names and distinctions that noone knows anything anymore.

"Was it Keirkegaard, or Dick Van Patten, who said "if you label me, you negate me"" - Mike Myers, Waynes World.

It is not the label people get upset with, in my opinion, it is their own personal idea of what that label means. This may or not be what the label means to a body of people who identify as a group, just what it means to themselves.

My approach is to treat everybody the same (respect, etc) and not assume anything about that person even if they provide me with some label to apply to them. Even if person A says "I am a slave" I do not know what the word "slave" means to them, so I am walking into spiderwebs making assumptions based on that word.

Sinergy

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 6:38:03 AM

MistressDREAD

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My approach is a bit diffie Singery as
I tell those whom I enter into a possible
conversation with what slave means to Me and
also sub so they are aware what in My eyes
is expected and can determine for them selfs
if they fit the bill and the generlized rules for
such labels and honorifics are known in genera
across alternate lifestyle lines and its only those
whom do not actually know what all of them mean
that usually are unconfortable using them.
Labels are VERY IMPORTANT in Our Lifestyle
and even in the vanilla world as well.

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 5:02:53 PM

deannawill

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I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree. And I usually place the same qualifications to those who would purport to 'own' one. I have projected myself at "CollarMe" as a 'submissive'. A submissive can be guided, controlled, owned, and cared-for just as well as a slave, but she is not the proverbial 'doormat'. Fortunately, most Dom/mes seem to prefer submissives to mental morons. Perhaps it is because the slave owners are afraid they cannot control anyone who can think. But that is another subject.

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 5:23:59 PM

proudsub

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quote:

I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree.

Can't wait to hear the replies to this statement.

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 6:34:26 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

For me I will defer to the person's preference if I know what it is (I tend to refrain from too many labels anyway, usually preferring names).

The approach I use is to treat them with respect, if they are obviously collared or in a relationship I ask them to give my respects to their significant other, and if I feel a label is important to have to apply to them I ask the person for the information.

I have had the occaision to ask one time, when a submissive kept referring to his Mistress over and over again. So I asked if he identified as a slave and asked a few questions about his point of view on the whole Mistress/slave thing.

It was informative and educational, and the conversation went on to more important things: fishing.

Sinergy

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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 6:47:01 PM

Temji

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greetings...

first... I assure you... being Gorean off line draws every bit as much flak as being Gorean ON line.

second... as regards sub vs. slave... call em what you want... or call Me what you want... much as Dom/Sir/Master/whatever... only two things matter in the end...

that I know who I am... and that My girl does what she is directed to do.

be well,

Temji KnightStorm

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