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RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 6:57:34 PM

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quote:

I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree.

I have no reason to flame this post. The words "To me" make it plain that it is his opinion, and if he wishes to hold onto that belief it is not my place to pass judgement.

Remember the 5% rule, there will be somebody out there who will be the person this person wants.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Temji)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 7:08:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deannawill
I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree.

In my opinion, two of the most intelligent, thoughtful and interesting posters on collarme (and believe me, there are very SMART people here) are female slaves. I can't wait 'till you get to read them!!!

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to deannawill)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/1/2004 10:04:18 PM

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From: Sacramento, California
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For me personally .. it's just labels.

In regard to those I might control slave and submissive isn't really what I tend to focus on, rather the term I prefer to focus on is *mine*.

*grin*

Everything else is pretty much moot with me. Mine is mine, the only ones that need to concern themselves with what that means is me and the other folks involved.

Same goes for the ol S.O., labels don't really stick with on me, lol, I just don't fit into any of the little neatly labled boxes, so yanno being the priority to each other is.

What we term it, how we live it, and the issues we face are left for us to muddle through - so it's cool, couldn't care less what others what to call me - let em label me if their baggage insists on it, matters not to me, or us.

I spent way too many years trying to be what others saw in me to ever bother with that now.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to January)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/2/2004 7:25:16 AM

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quote:

I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree.

You know Deanna, I can fully understand that. Making judgment calls and statements is really always the best way to go. Being on the other side of the equation, I understand all the more and feel the same towards any submissive. Well, it's not that I don't have a regard, more pity I suppose. To have this *need* to hold back part of themselves, this *fear* of totally giving themselves..... Maybe it's having so little confidence in or trust of the dominant who would own them? ::Sighs:: It's just depressing thinking about.

Of course, those who know me on this board know that is not how I really feel about those who are submissive. I have respect for all peoples choices as long as they aren't harming minors or imposing them on me. I do honestly feel sad that you limit your interactions to the point that you believe that comment about slaves though. I assure you, I am far from lacking mental prowess, and though emotional, certainly not in an unstable or harmful way. My strongest emotion is love for both Master and my children. And trust me, there is nothing wrong in his desire to own a slave either. He's even human enough to admit error when he makes one and to not only understand that the children come first, but even to *want* to know I am the type of woman that puts the welfare of those who are in need of care first.

::Laughing:: and trust me, try to harm any of my sons or Master and you will see how *capable* I am of taking care of things :)

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to deannawill)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/2/2004 7:47:38 AM

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OMGAWDDD
I DONT EVEN
HAVE TO MAKE
COMMENT CAUSE
estrict SAID IT
ALL.......

quote:

Well, it's not that I don't have a regard, more pity I suppose. To have this *need* to hold back part of themselves, this *fear* of totally giving themselves..... Maybe it's having so little confidence in or trust of the dominant who would own them? ::Sighs:: It's just depressing thinking about.

Of course, those who know me on this board know that is not how I really feel about those who are submissive. I have respect for all peoples choices as long as they aren't harming minors or imposing them on me. I do honestly feel sad that you limit your interactions to the point that you believe that comment about slaves though. I assure you, I am far from lacking mental prowess, and though emotional, certainly not in an unstable or harmful way. My strongest emotion is love for both Master and my children. And trust me, there is nothing wrong in his desire to own a slave either.

HOLDS ONTO MY slaves DANCING POLE SO
IM NOT TEMPTED TO SAY ANYTHING ELSE.
GGGRRRRRRR ERRRRRR FIGHT THE FEELING
GURL FIGHT THE FEELINGGGGGGG.........

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/2/2004 8:05:14 AM

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<sitting here hoping shai^tana will also respond>

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[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/2/2004 9:08:37 AM

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Joined: 1/6/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EvilSoul
"The reason I placed the title like that is because I need to understand the fullness of why so many in this lifestyle that claim to be apart of it on the *submissive* or *slave* level, have such an anger when they are called something they do not claim to be there self being .( call a sub a slave and it's fighting time) and this goes vice versa . I would like to read some good comments on this issue

Does this controversy of labels apply only to sub/slave?

There are in fact many other "label clashes" (there's one behind every tree):

Doms who get irate being called Master
Masters who hate being regarded as Doms
Lords who deplore Dom and Master
Dommes who get angry when called Fem Doms
Mistresses who deplore being called Dommes
Goddesses who hate being called Mistress
Fake Dominants get irate when called wannabes
subs referred to as SAMs often show anger
etc, etc, etc

Any label can be made to appear prestigious, just ask the "Sanitation Engineer" hanging onto the back of the stinky garbage truck. He makes $5 per hour and hates being called a garbage man.

Note: It's now more politically correct to say "garbage person".

Want to piss off a dope dealer?... call them a dope dealer!

Some say "po-tay-tow"... some say "po-tah-tow", but it's still a vegetable... not animal or mineral... still just a veggie!

Being hard pressed for a sincere label, one that never changes... ahhh, Alcoholic! Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic... either practicing, or recovering!

Make no mistake about it, whatever you do... don't ever call a cunt a bitch!

Inyouagain

_____________________________

Careful with that axe, Eugene

(in reply to EvilSoul)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/5/2004 9:33:22 AM

stormiKnightBEAR

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Sir,

With all due respect..........

A submissive is allowed to be very vocal and have limitations without
wondering if this is good for the Dom or not. Mainly because a Dom
that is with that submissive <hopefully> is smart enough to have
discussed those limits and knows what she would or would not do.
As a submissive, she could without public ridicule look at her Dom and
say.. Sir you are off your rocker if you think I will do <insert your choice>,
as a slave, that would be equal to calling the Pope a baptist preacher to his
face. A total slap. It would not "dishonor" the submissive, but the slave
would loose all Honor.

A slave while yes being human and having choices and rights to live life,
CHOOSES to put her MASTERS needs above her own. Does it mean the
slave must agree? No. What it means is she is service minded enough to
be willing to do what Master wants. Is that easy? Absolutely not, not
by the wildest imagination is that easy. There are times that stormi would
love to blow a gasket but, she knows that whatever it is gives Master
pleasure so she bites her tongue then ask privately to discuss it later.
But in all honesty, Master usually starts the discussion first as He knows
His slave well enough to read her body language.

And with all due respect...... Please do not say OLD GUARD did not do this or
that. For those of us, that have been blessed enough to be in the arms of Leather
men and women who considered OLD GUARD in the Leather community, that
is a offensive statement. It is noted that not everyone believes what the
leather community does, or lives by the code of Honor that the leather community
holds its self to, that is very obvious by some of the post from members and
even moderators about OLD GUARD.

Nothing says that everything has to be agreed upon by all. Nothing says that
everyone must live their lifestyle choice by the protocols and conditions of others,
nothing says that because one is experienced and the other is not, that it makes
one better than the other. It is truly ALL in the eyes of the beholder. So just agree
that it's ok to disagree and not throw statements out that can be viewed as flaming
post or attacks. <Or use the almighty ignore......what a wonderful invention>

You and others might not agree with the definitions given here and that is perfectly
okay. But the orginal poster wanted to know why it's an insult to be called the other.
Hopefully, he will see it's a pride thing. Most subs look down on slaves because slaves
are willing to be 3rd or 15th or 100th in a Master's life, where a sub will not always
agree to that. As a slave, the only thing stormi can recommend is this to remember
that until you walk in a slave's shoes...... you can't understand what it takes or feels
like to be a slave.

Proudly in Leather,
stormi
~W~ property of Master Bear

_____________________________

owned white silk slave of TEMJI aka Master Bear

PROUD TO BE TEXAN AND AMERICAN BY BIRTH~
GOD BLESS TEXAS AND THE U.S.A !!!!

(in reply to ShadowHwk)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/5/2004 6:52:45 PM

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[quote: with all due respect...... Please do not say OLD GUARD did not do this or
that. For those of us, that have been blessed enough to be in the arms of Leather
men and women who considered OLD GUARD in the Leather community, that
is a offensive statement.]

There a a few certainties in life. The sun will rise, the sun will set, water is wet, and some will rag on others judging others, and still be the most judgemental.

< Message edited by ModeratorThree -- 6/9/2004 8:43:39 PM >

(in reply to stormiKnightBEAR)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/5/2004 11:54:26 PM

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To look at this from a slightly different perspective. If you care to look at the male submissive/slave ads (I use this because they are the ones I have been viewing), you will see a number of them that intermix the titles of submissive and slave. "slavefido" then under description, they list themselves as submissive. Or subchuckie, and description of slave. If the ones using these titles are having difficulty lighting on the dime, then I see no solution to the problem from here. Myself I agree with the ones who said, you own the collar you call the shots. Smiling, but it is interesting to read all the views. The best way I knew to start an intensely heated discussion with my D/s friends was to ask, so what's your definition of a slave? Tess

(in reply to ShadowHwk)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/6/2004 2:07:31 AM

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From: East Anglia UK
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Interesting disscussion, something I've never really thought about before.

I've just asked my sub? If she prefers being called a slave or sub.
Slave apparently, I prefer sub. Maybe because we're not part of a real world scene, its not important to us. Sometimes before we really start playing, I'll ask if there is something she really wants to be called, then depending on what sort of mood I am in, I might call her it.

I am called Master by her, yet I don't like anyone else calling me a Master.

(in reply to Sundew02)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/6/2004 9:51:23 AM

rain

Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deannawill
I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree.

While i do not consider myself to be a slave, i do know a few, and i think the opposite is true. A slave must truly know themselves and have high regard for themselves in ordre to have the total power exchange required of them. The slaves i have met are certainly NOT doormats, they are intelligent, opinionated, and often very extroverted.

i have a great deal of respect for those strong enough to live as a slave, as it is not something i would be capable of.

cheers,

~rain~

_____________________________

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today. - James Dean

(in reply to deannawill)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/6/2004 10:03:52 AM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

quote:
quote:

ORIGINAL: deannawill
I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree.

While i do not consider myself to be a slave, i do know a few, and i think the opposite is true.

Midear Rain-

Well, I agree with the rest of what you said, but I'd draw the line at 'opposite'- I don't think submissives are 'Lacking, etc.,'<g>.

But i do rather catagorise a 'slave' as a higher grade (maybe industrial duty?) sort of submissive.

In speaking with a wonderful young man last night at the Long Island Fetish Event [LIFE], he made his perferance for 'slave' as a self definition very clear to me.

"To call myself a slave, is to say that I serve from an choice- I have not been enticed, cajoled, tricked or maniplated into complying- I do a thing because I said I will, regardless of weather or not it is something that get something out of. It come from my strength, not need."

It summed up a lot of my thinking on the subject nicely.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

< Message edited by topcat -- 6/6/2004 1:05:07 PM >

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to rain)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/6/2004 6:26:29 PM

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quote:

Any label can be made to appear prestigious, just ask the "Sanitation Engineer" hanging onto the back of the stinky garbage truck. He makes $5 per hour and hates being called a garbage man.

Actually, he is either a state employee or a union member, so he makes a lot more than $5 an hour and has wonderful benefits.

When I am working a union job I could give a rats rear end what they call me as long as Im on the payroll...

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/7/2004 5:00:26 AM

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It is vastly easier to pick apart a statement than to make one.

quote:

I have no respect or regard for "slaves". To me they are sadly lacking in mental prowess, or they are emotionally unstable to a harmful degree.

For that to be accurate, the facts must support the contention. What of slaves who not only do not lack mental prowess, but who actually possess it in abundance? There are slaves who have successful careers and family and are highly educated. Slaves like this would be emotionally more stable, not less, look at their determination, look at their fortitude and endurance and goal realization.

The generalizations above fall hard when confronted with the facts.

To be fair though, I am not generalizing, I'm only talking about one slave, the only one I can really talk about.

It could be that a slave strives to give all, it could be they need the sheer excess of it, that they seek the great "letting go" that being as subservient as possible realizes. It can also be that they seek their own ultimate expression of love and devotion....and sensuality. To me, that all sounds soundly well grounded despite it's inherent excess, or completeness.

We are all, regardless of stripe, seeking what fulfills us, it's relative and subjective as can be imagined.

There are plenty of kinks I don't think much of, and that's just my own preferences, and surely my right. But there's damned few people I don't respect without them specifically earning that ignoble dishonor.

Lastly, there are some damned strong slaves out there. Emotionally, educationally, and in terms of dedication. In that, they have something very worthwhile to give...and they give it literally with all they've got.

I think that point may have been missed in the above quote.

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/7/2004 7:54:26 AM

rain

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quote:

Well, I agree with the rest of what you said, but I'd draw the line at 'opposite'- I don't think submissives are 'Lacking, etc.,'<g>.

topcat,

i see your point- i did not intend to say that subs are lacking in any way- i was merely expressing my opinion re: slaves.

But, you are correct, subs are strong, intelligent, and often extroverted as well!

Cheers,

rain

_____________________________

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today. - James Dean

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/7/2004 11:45:24 AM

Temji

Posts: 43
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

There a a few certainties in life. The sun will rise, the sun will set, water is wet, and stormi will rag on others judging others, and still be the most judgemental.

greetings, Estring...

I see nothing in stormi's post that is judgemental at all... a clear statement of why being called one or the other is offensive to her, yes... and a request to not make blanket statements about "old guard" or "new guard", yes... nothing judgemental however...

you'll note she's not responding to you... she can't... you'll further note that you'll get no response from Me either after this one...

I will choose to inform you however that we have now asked the moderators approximately a half dozen times why you're allowed to make posts like the one quoted, and if she responds in kind she is chastised. We cannot get an answer.. so ... in order to avoid unwarranted chastisement for her, she is no longer allowed to respond to you. I choose not to...

My email however remains available to you...

I am ... Temji KnightStorm

yahoo email and messenger: [email protected]
icq: 15696640
hotmail and msn: [email protected]

be well,

Temji

(in reply to rain)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/7/2004 2:47:52 PM

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Maybe the reason is the Moderators agree with me. Lol. I have no problem with stormi expressing her views. I agree with some of them. But in every single post she takes pot shots at we here who may disagree with her. It gets old after awhile.
For example, to say "Don't" express opposing views on Old Guard slavery because she and her friends are offended is much different than saying she disagrees with our opinions. In just about every post she implies that we who may disagree with her are ignorant in this lifestyle. Sorry to disagree, but we are not.
Read your slaves' posts again.

(in reply to Temji)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/8/2004 12:49:26 AM

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oophs..sometimes being French and a red head is a curse

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 6/8/2004 1:07:19 AM >

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to Estring)

RE: Anger between two little words(slave or submissve) - 6/9/2004 9:38:21 PM

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Interesting thread. One thing everyone knows in the back of their minds is that there is no true slavery in the U.S., obviously. A submissive, a pet, a pig, a slave can walk out the door with no repercussions. A dom, top, master, sir has absolutely no control, ownership, guardianship, possession at all over any other person, in reality. To think otherwise is to be delusional.

All bdsm and D/s, M/s etc. is simply a shared agreement based on the sexual energy between partners. Yes, we all can play without sex or any extension of a desire for sex, but the foundation of WIITWD is sexual. Anything else and it becomes an economic proposition, and no one is going to do anything for long without something in return!

Can you lead a political movement, or follow a charismatic leader to the death? Yes, but that isn't bdsm. There's no sexual power exchange (at least in terms of the movement/ideas/ideology).

I enjoy playing at sex with power exchange a component. That's why I'm here, that's why one sees so many people looking for an exclusive partnership. You don't see that at General Electric...'Yep, I'm working for a company, and I want to have a monogomous relationship with my employer!' It's sheer nonsense to think otherwise.

Personally, I find the difference between submissive and slave to be genuine, and for me it is a level of acceptance of an illusion of submitting/slavery. I hate topping from the bottom (though conversation is certainly OK, orders are not!), and a slave makes a decision not to interfere unless necessary. Submissives, in my mind, are more equal, not as deep of an agreement to probe the depths and heights of power exchange.

That's not a rule at all, it's just how I feel, and how I approach it. YMMV.

(in reply to ShadowHwk)

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