RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2

RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress

Message

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/18/2010 7:46:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: And The Addams Family was my first taste of gender equality; not only was Morticia a fully equal part of the household, but she was a better fencer. Oh and I loved the way he would kiss up Morticia's arm! [image]http://www.popmatters.com/images/film_art/a/addamsfamvol2-ins.jpg[/image] - LA Clearly demonstrating that one may have both passion and manners. [;)]

dcnovice -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/18/2010 7:48:57 PM)
[image]http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/128860846999155475.jpg[/image]

PeonForHer -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/18/2010 7:59:44 PM)
There's a frequent theme in fiction and cinema: the villain with perfect manners. Comes across very clearly with Hannibal Lecter. A fellow-prisoner growls at Agent Starling "I can smell your pussy". Lecter apologises to Starling for that. The next morning, the ill-mannered prisoner is, natch, dead.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/18/2010 8:38:13 PM)
quote: the villain with perfect manners I think I dated one or two of those... - LA

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/18/2010 8:53:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 I think you, and a lot of other people here, have trouble stomaching that weakness is an element of femininity, and that control is an element of masculinity. Welcome back. I don't know if "stomaching" is quite the word I'd use as I don't really have much invested in either term. It's more of an intellectual exercise as my usage of the terms seems at odds with yours and I'm trying to determine if my understanding of the concepts is at odds with common usage or if yours is. My dictionary lists "feminine" as "having qualities or or characteristics traditionally ascribed to women, as sensitivity, delicacy, or prettiness". I'm not sure that's the perfect definition as I'd have to think about women and characters I consider as exemplars of femininity and whether they met the definition, but even given that what it doesn't include is "weak". quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 Lauren Bacall means nothing to me. I think I've seen her in one movie. I have no idea what's she's like, so...pick another example. I'll use the same genre I was using for "gentleman". I consider Morticia Addams (in either the Carolyn Jones or Anjelica Huston incarnation) quite feminine. I don't believe she is weak. quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 quote: Similarly, I don't believe that being "masculine" requires someone to be in charge. Some masculine men dominate and run things. Some do not. Not by the definition of masculine as I understand it. That's the issue at hand, I think. As I understand it, masculinity has nothing to do with being "in charge". The classic Western hero, the strong silent type - whether Gary Cooper or Clint Eastwood - is considered to be extremely "masculine" - yet is never in charge of anything. If attacked or insulted, the Western hero reacts strongly - if confronted with an injustice, he corrects it - but at the end of the day the hero rides off into the sunset alone. I would argue that the "masculine" man is not defined by his relationship with others but more by his adhering to his own inner code, and as such notions such as "control" are irrelevant to the concept of masculinity. quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 ...and didn't those relationships destroy those men? Because they lost control of themselves to a woman, and were dragged down and crushed by mercurial femininity? There's a fine line between being inspired by and controlled by a woman, and in literature fate has generally been cruel to those who cross the line. I mean Christ, who the hell wants to emulate Lancelot and Guinevere? That's up there with emulating Romeo and Juliet on the list of bad ideas. I don't know if Caesar's assassination in the Senate can be blamed on Cleopatra. I believe that, historically, she argued that he should bring a bodyguard with him and he shrugged her off. I will grant you that Lancelot's relationship with Guinevere destroyed him (and her and everyone around them) but I'm not sure if that's due to an innate flaw in their relationship dynamic or due to the fact that she happened to be married to the king. However, a particular incident isn't sufficient to prove or disprove a general type. If you're saying that for a masculine man to submit to a powerful woman will result in his (or their) destruction - I'd have to say it probably depends on the woman. I think that "dominance" and "submission" are gender neutral terms and so are words like "control" and "weakness". A football team is composed of what are regarded as very masculine men. The captain of the team is usually the quarterback, who is regarded as the weakest of the offensive team - the one "in charge" being the least masculine, not to mention the coach who is even less "masculine". At the extreme end, a man who is obsessed with being in control, who has to be in charge at all times, the caricature of the anal-retentive martinet isn't viewed as "masculine" at all and is generally despised or ridiculed. quote: ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23 ...while having an interest in hot rods and pro-sports are masculine characteristics but not male characteristics. I don't know if having an interest in hot rods and pro-sports would head my list of "masculine" characteristics. They're probably not even on it. This is probably extremely illustrative of the discrepancies between our views.

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/18/2010 9:09:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer There's a frequent theme in fiction and cinema: the villain with perfect manners. Comes across very clearly with Hannibal Lecter. A fellow-prisoner growls at Agent Starling "I can smell your pussy". Lecter apologises to Starling for that. The next morning, the ill-mannered prisoner is, natch, dead. It's an interesting reversal from the "classic" heroes of cinema - whether the hero (a la the Lone Ranger or the Thin Man or whatever) had perfect manners and the villains were generally a bunch of poorly-mannered louts (i.e. thugs or goons).

LadyAngelika -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/18/2010 9:15:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack Clearly demonstrating that one may have both passion and manners. [;)] Oh gosh yes!! :-) - LA

LadyPact -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 4:10:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious Haha! Gotta love that Ms Monroe... But seriously, I'm interested. I think what is attracting me is the difference from other protocol-type training; as far as I can tell, most protocol-y stuff you could train a sub to do is applicable mainly in a D/s setting-training someone to keep their eyes down and their posture straight is all well and good when they are on your bedroom floor, but not massively helpful in other contexts. Teaching someone how to be a gentleman, on the other hand, is going to help everywhere, right? It's going to affect how people treat the sub in the wider world, in a positive way. Which is pretty wicked :-) Actually, this is quite incorrect. Those of us who run leather or other high protocol dynamics don't limit the behavior of a gentleman to the bedroom alone. I can promise you that My boy's etiquette and manners set for the dynamic are in place everywhere. It's required whether at home, out shopping or participating in events. Some of this is as simple as putting a protocol in place within the dynamic, such as it is required for your s-type to open your car door or making your plate first before eating dinner. Of course, as the Dominant, it's up to you to put these protocols in place and keep the expectation to be followed. One method of encouraging this greatly is becoming involved in high protocol events. Ladies teas, Madame's brunches, and high protocol dinners or wine service evenings. Not only will your s-type receive additional instruction on a higher level of behavior for the setting, it's an environment where that standard is the order of the day. The positive reinforcement of which encourages it to 'trickle down' into your day to day life. Many times the 'practice' leading up to the date of such an event is done at home so your s-type is prepared for when the event is held. Two things that I might mention here. Positive reinforcement encourages the behavior, both by you and by outside sources. In turn, this tends to make the behavior contagious. When one s-type is praised for their gentlemanly behavior, the others in the group tend to pick it up as well.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 5:10:44 AM)
I agree with your entire post LadyPact, and particularly this part: quote: Two things that I might mention here. Positive reinforcement encourages the behavior, both by you and by outside sources. In turn, this tends to make the behavior contagious. When one s-type is praised for their gentlemanly behavior, the others in the group tend to pick it up as well. - LA

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 8:02:29 AM)
Let a manly man do what it takes to give birth to a nine pounder over the course of fourty four hours and let's see how manly man they are! lol Feminine doesn't mean weak! I've seen men with colds... you cannot convince me that they could handle the birthing process... hell, many of them can't even handle watching it! Oh and don't get me started on how weak they can be when it comes to a poopy diaper! (Proof of this in a simplistic verson could be how dramatic it is for some men to actually take a poop... something major they talk about like some women talk about giving birth!) [;)] Men can use the dictionary to discribe something that fails to explain something fully and put women back in a little box by the discription. Let's go to real life shall we? Application says a whole lot more to me than a frigging book that discribes something in a paragraph or two. What next? Oh, if she cusses, she is manly or how about if she wants to smoke or run a business or damn... run for public office? Simplistic views of what is feminine are not putting me back into a box!

PeonForHer -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 8:07:42 AM)
'Smoking' - unfeminine? I think you're wrong on that one, Lockit. If she smokes, she's suave, chic, a little bit dangerous and probably a wow in the sack. Think Marlene Dietrich in all those iconic photos.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 8:45:59 AM)
Actual interview q & a: Reporter: Do you smoke after you make love? Mae West: I don't know. I've never looked.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 10:38:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious Haha! Gotta love that Ms Monroe... But seriously, I'm interested. I think what is attracting me is the difference from other protocol-type training; as far as I can tell, most protocol-y stuff you could train a sub to do is applicable mainly in a D/s setting-training someone to keep their eyes down and their posture straight is all well and good when they are on your bedroom floor, but not massively helpful in other contexts. Teaching someone how to be a gentleman, on the other hand, is going to help everywhere, right? It's going to affect how people treat the sub in the wider world, in a positive way. Which is pretty wicked :-) Actually, this is quite incorrect. Those of us who run leather or other high protocol dynamics don't limit the behavior of a gentleman to the bedroom alone. I can promise you that My boy's etiquette and manners set for the dynamic are in place everywhere. It's required whether at home, out shopping or participating in events. Some of this is as simple as putting a protocol in place within the dynamic, such as it is required for your s-type to open your car door or making your plate first before eating dinner. Of course, as the Dominant, it's up to you to put these protocols in place and keep the expectation to be followed. One method of encouraging this greatly is becoming involved in high protocol events. Ladies teas, Madame's brunches, and high protocol dinners or wine service evenings. Not only will your s-type receive additional instruction on a higher level of behavior for the setting, it's an environment where that standard is the order of the day. The positive reinforcement of which encourages it to 'trickle down' into your day to day life. Many times the 'practice' leading up to the date of such an event is done at home so your s-type is prepared for when the event is held. Two things that I might mention here. Positive reinforcement encourages the behavior, both by you and by outside sources. In turn, this tends to make the behavior contagious. When one s-type is praised for their gentlemanly behavior, the others in the group tend to pick it up as well. Ok-I fully accept that I don't know much about protocol training and that I've got it wrong here. That's what the 'as far as I can tell' part was for ;-) I'm not sure whether we really are disagreeing, though-the behaviours you have listed do seem mainly to be connected to gentlemanly manners. I wrote that post pretty late last night, and I think the image I had in my head when I wrote was mainly the 'take your clothes off at the door and kneel whenever I enter the room' style protocol; looking over what I wrote now I sound pretty dismissive (I know protocol is about more than that) and I apologise.

LadyPact -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 10:48:58 AM)
Absolutely no need to apologize. I don't think we're disagreeing. Much of it is based on a submissive having the manners of a gentleman. You'll find many basis for etiquette among various BDSM subcultures. The 'naked and kneel when I come home' variety tends to fall under more the terminology of ritual, rather than protocol.

Politesub53 -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 10:52:03 AM)
Lockit my sweet. We dont get colds, its the dreaded man flu, only we know how much suffering is associated with it. [;)]

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 11:02:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Absolutely no need to apologize. I don't think we're disagreeing. Much of it is based on a submissive having the manners of a gentleman. You'll find many basis for etiquette among various BDSM subcultures. The 'naked and kneel when I come home' variety tends to fall under more the terminology of ritual, rather than protocol. Ok, my bad-I will know what word to use when next time. Thankyou.

Lockit -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 12:56:34 PM)
VideoAdminAlpha is a bad moderator. She put me on active moderation for expressing a political opinion that does not violate the TOS. It's an abuse of her position and power, and she should not be allowed to moderate this or any other forum. psychonaut... I am not going to speak for our moderator... but I will say, you should have been moderated for a number of things and all having nothing to do with a political view and a lot to do with inflamitory comments.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 1:11:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit VideoAdminAlpha is a bad moderator. She put me on active moderation for expressing a political opinion that does not violate the TOS. It's an abuse of her position and power, and she should not be allowed to moderate this or any other forum. psychonaut... I am not going to speak for our moderator... but I will say, you should have been moderated for a number of things and all having nothing to do with a political view and a lot to do with inflamitory comments. I'm pretty sure that picture violated TOS as well.

Drifa -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 1:24:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Lockit my sweet. We dont get colds, its the dreaded man flu, only we know how much suffering is associated with it. [;)] Is that worse than the dreaded man cold?

OttersSwim -> RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 (1/19/2010 1:28:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit VideoAdminAlpha is a bad moderator. She put me on active moderation for expressing a political opinion that does not violate the TOS. It's an abuse of her position and power, and she should not be allowed to moderate this or any other forum. psychonaut... I am not going to speak for our moderator... but I will say, you should have been moderated for a number of things and all having nothing to do with a political view and a lot to do with inflamitory comments. Here is what it should have said: VideoAdminAlpha is a very kind moderator. She only put me on active moderation for expressing an idiotic, inflammatory slam and open attack against other members and that had very little to do with the topic, and a really disturbing picture that probably violated the TOS and totally hijacked the thread. It was an abuse of my membership here on CM and a positive proof that she is worthy of her position and power, and she should absolutely be allowed to moderate this or any other forum. I am lucky that I am still here posting at all. I wish to apologize to all members, and especially those serving in, or who have served in the military. Sincerely, Psychonaut23

Page: << < prev 15 16 [17] 18 19 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

6.298828E-02