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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/21/2010 7:55:41 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

Excellent.

Forced Masculinity.

can I be a forced Renaissance Gentleman?

<)< it is not really forced but a lifelong aspiration.

Maybe your Domme could indulge you if you ask her nicely ;-)

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/21/2010 7:57:18 PM

Lockit

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LOL Didn't they basically wear tight's? Sorry... I just found that ironic. lol

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/21/2010 7:58:37 PM

InvisibleBlack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

Oh, Tish! Say something in French!

J'apprécie énormément vos contributions, mon cher. C'est rafraichissant d'avoir d'excellentes perspectives intelligentes et sensés. J'adore!!

- LA

Ah, Cara Mia!

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/21/2010 8:03:06 PM

pyroaquatic

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If only there was more time with her. :c

@lockit...

okay victoria era dress (or fifties) with Renaissance style methodology and spirit.

Funny, I do all of those things the Links led to. At least try.

< Message edited by pyroaquatic -- 1/21/2010 8:05:23 PM >

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/21/2010 8:03:16 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

LOL Didn't they basically wear tight's? Sorry... I just found that ironic. lol

An regal wigs!

If someone wants to play renaissance with me, I'll lock him in an Iron Maiden ;-)

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/21/2010 9:29:22 PM

SimplyIsaac

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

I do think that submission qua submission* is feminine, and that dominance qua dominance is masculine. In fact I consider dominance** the quintessential masculine quality, and submission the quintessential feminine quality. So I do think that male submission is feminine in of itself.

That's cool. I thought you were saying the above was universal fact and not opinion in regards to our times. In fairness, the only near universal concept is that man=dominator and woman=manservant has been around for a long time, but is pretty antiquated. My opinion? It's antiquated for a reason.

So, do you agree with the idea that submissive men can be masculine, overall? I ask this not by measuring with the yardstick of a bygone age, but by modern intellectual standards, definitions, etc.

< Message edited by SimplyIsaac -- 1/21/2010 9:31:47 PM >

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 1:32:08 AM

VaguelyCurious

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Sorry for the long delay-blame the time difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

I also think you're just winding Lucienne up, but I'm going to assume you believe what you just wrote: that there is no longer any agreement on what is masculine and what is feminine.

What you said before, and what started this whole argument, was that you thought submission could not be masculine. Leaving aside the validity of the two statements, if the first one holds then surely the second one is meaningless. No?

No. There may be no agreement, but that doesn't mean that masculine and feminine don't mean anything. It just means that most people have gone crazy on stupid juice.

But if we have all gone crazy on stupid juice (nice expression, shame you insist on expressing the sentiment-I wouldn't call the feminist fight for equality crazy), doesn't that mean there is no point in having the original argument at all? If we can't find common ground on what constitutes masculinity or femininity (and the more of your posts I read the more I am convinced this is the case-you are coming at this from a very different angle to anyone else here, which is your prerogative, but it does make it difficult to see things from your point of view) then is there any point in discussing whether or not submission can be masculine, domination feminine, etc?

quote:

I mean basically I think you're all just wrong, and kinda dumb to boot. Sorry if that offends anyone. (I'm not really sorry.)

You said in another post that a) I was intelligent (although I don't see why you're singling me out and still insulting RedMagic, Lockit et al), and b) you had never insulted me. I just want to flag this part of your post up in that context.

quote:

I get along best with people who either a) know what they're talking about or b) know they don't know anything and thus adopt a student mind. It's the people (I won't name names. I won't name names. I won't name names.) who don't realize that they don't know anything and should be learning, but insist on telling those who know more that they are wrong, who provoke incivility from me.

Please could you read that statement again? Do you think that if you weren't you, you would get along with yourself? (I know the syntax of that sentence is painful, something for which I apologize, but I was woken up at wtf am by some idiot setting off the fire alarm with their shower, and I haven't quite recovered yet.)

quote:

I'm very Zen. In Zen, the roshi (master) simply slaps stupid students upside the head until they learn to adopt a student mind. Many roshi even have long sticks they lay next to them as they teach, so they can smack students without having to get up.

I'd also point out that in Zen the students have accepted the roshi as their master. They have come to him to ask for learning. He doesn't have the right to whap anyone upside the head who has not submitted to him. We have come to you for learning on the topic of masculinity and femininity, we have come to discuss Lady A's penchant for training up gentlemanly submissives. While that analogy is cute, I don't think it is particularly applicable here.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 5:06:55 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
Nothing RedMagic has ever said or will ever say will ever qualify as something worth listening to. ...Why would I take advice from people I consider that far beneath me?

Woo hoo!!!!!!!!

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 5:08:42 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
Nothing RedMagic has ever said or will ever say will ever qualify as something worth listening to. ...Why would I take advice from people I consider that far beneath me?

Woo hoo!!!!!!!!

Oh my, it's too early in the morning for dancing pineapples. Besides, don't you find dancing emoticons just a little too feminine? ;-)

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 5:18:22 AM

lusciouslips19

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Did Psycoboy compare himself to a Zen MAster??????

Really, his dillusions of grandeur, make him impossible to reason with. Hes just not in touch with reality . He doesnt get it and he never will.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 5:26:22 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Besides, don't you find dancing emoticons just a little too feminine? ;-)

Oooh, masculinize me, baby!

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 6:16:26 AM

QueenRah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Oh it lead me to this instructional video which would be good for all posters who flame. ;-)

- LA

Forgive one more sidetrack. I promise I'll stop...eventually. Check out this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eab4rb97K7o&feature=fvw (It's right next to the above.) It may make you cry. Did me. Actually, I do see *some* connection between this psa and the "conversation" underway, at least in the tone and style of some folks' responses.

To the screamers, would you really want your example to be followed by your progeny?

QR

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 6:48:19 AM

cloudboy

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quote:

If we can't find common ground on what constitutes masculinity or femininity (and the more of your posts I read the more I am convinced this is the case-you are coming at this from a very different angle to anyone else here, which is your prerogative, but it does make it difficult to see things from your point of view) then is there any point in discussing whether or not submission can be masculine, domination feminine, etc?

The best point he makes is that "masculinity" and "femininity" are not gender determined traits, and that the OP's view of masculine traits is nothing more than a series of traditionally held feminine traits (without the clothing.)

Any thread started by a femdom or maledom -- talking about forced masculinity or femininity -- simply ends up pitting one subjective position v. another. Its a naturally divisive issue, and I don't get how the mods put psycho on moderation for pressing his side of the argument. Its not like he created the thread to draw attention to himself or make backhanded statements and implications about another group of people.

Please shoot me a PM if you ever do unearth the universal masculine male. My vote would be Wolverine from the X-Men. He certainly could take a lot of pain, but I don't think he enjoyed it.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 7:35:04 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Any thread started by a femdom or maledom -- talking about forced masculinity or femininity -- simply ends up pitting one subjective position v. another. Its a naturally divisive issue, and I don't get how the mods put psycho on moderation for pressing his side of the argument. Its not like he created the thread to draw attention to himself or make backhanded statements and implications about another group of people.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't moderated for his views on gender issues-he posted a graphically violent image which violated the TOS, in an attack on the military ethos which was an aside from the original debate.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 7:44:41 AM

cloudboy

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I did not know that. Thanks for the clarification. (I love clarifications.)

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 7:57:51 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I love clarifications.

Do you really? Based on what I've seen of your behaviour on this thread, I wouldn't have said so.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 8:12:04 AM

VideoAdminSigma

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It is not habit to discuss openly moderations of users on these forums by the moderators or administrators. It was beyond the picture (but that certainly was unhelpful), it is for his propensity of wholesale insulting of classes of people unprovoked. Any disagreement by other posters is usually seen as an 'attack' and he goes off on another insult spree.

We are waiting to see if he is mature enough to take the signature line off on his own, as we would not allow someone else to put that about him in their's, but would delete every post ever made, and probably ban them from the site.

The thing is, when he makes his arguements without vituperations, he has some cogent and thought provoking views and argumentation.

I recommend if you have trouble accepting any poster's viewpoint out here, you have an easy remedy -- use the hide button located on the bottom left of that users post. Use of the hide, block and delete buttons throughout this site will instantly return you to a serene and verdant world, for; what is the sound of one hand clapping?

You can make these people impotent, not important.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 9:23:30 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23

quote:

Whoa. Okay ... hang on a sec. Your highest example of femininity is the Princess Aurora in Sleeping Beauty? The woman who spends the better part of the plot unconscious? I agree with you that the "damsel in distress" is as valid a feminine archetype as the "femme fatale" ... but to hold up an unconscious victim as the perfect example of being feminine - I think even the Victorians wouldn't go that far. I'm pretty sure the Victorian man wanted his woman awake and aware. You don't see that the point you're putting forward is extreme?

If you asked me to cite an example of the perfectly masculine character, I'd cite the Terminator from the first Terminator movie (but not the later ones). So yes, I am aware that the example is extreme. That was the point.

So, your example of a perfectly masculine character is a machine that feels no pity, no pain, and no fear. A machine that has no moral agency but is programmed with an objective and is constructed to pursue that objective without concern for anything else. A machine with sufficient artificial intelligence to negotiate a complicated and unfamiliar world but no ability to form an opinion of its own or override its programming. A machine that has not purpose to its existence other than to follow orders is the perfectly masculine character.

quote:

quote:

However - I absolutely don't want to go into this digression as it would result in a massive threadjack to no purpose. I do want to ask a question though - you do understand that your viewpoint here is seriously skewed from the normal? That's it's not the typical viewpoint?

Yes, I'm well aware that most people believe that being a soldier is manly and heroic. But I don't think I'm really that far off. When was the last time you saw a film or read a book about a soldier and he followed every order, did exactly as he was told, and never questioned his superiors and his orders? Independence of thought and action is quintessentially masculine, which is why the hero cop is Dirty Harry, and the heroic soldier is the one who defies the orders of his superiors and does what is right.

If independence of thought and action is quintessentially masculine, how is it that the perfectly masculine character is a Cyborg with no will of its own that never deviates from its orders? Do I need to break this down more for you to catch on to the contradiction in your position?

Additionally {dusts off film geek credentials and sci-fi merit badge}, why is it that only the Terminator in the first movie is a perfectly masculine character? What separates him from the Terminators that follow? The Terminators in the the original and T2 are the exact same model. One is programmed to destroy, the other to protect. Is destruction quintessentially masculine? If so, why doesn't the T-1000 get its "perfectly masculine character" card? Is it because, contrasted with the Terminator, it isn't manufactured with man parts but instead acquires them after traveling through time and modeling its form off a human being? Developing on this point, what distinguishes the Terminator of the original from the T-X, whose adaptive skills are far more advanced in service of the objective? Does it really all come down to being created with man parts? Because I think I could go along with a baseline definition that every human with a penis has a claim to some semblance of masculinity.

ETA: By the "man parts" standard, I'd argue that the Terminator isn't even the most masculine character in the movie, forget the larger culture. Kyle Reese had functioning man parts, he used them, and he reproduced.

< Message edited by Lucienne -- 1/22/2010 9:35:09 AM >

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 9:47:11 AM

pyroaquatic

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I concur Lucienne. I believe the term is Androgenic. The Terminator is Androgenic.

A Gentleman does not let his emotions show through or let them cloud his judgment. He has the confidence of a very special Lady and that is the one person who shall know the inner 'mechanisms' of said gentleman.

I see it as this.

I am an Alpha-type (let us suppose this is 'forced'). How intoxicating would it be to know that a Dominant Female has/is given control over a male that has influence of his male colleagues?

I would imagine it would be very erotic indeed.

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You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/22/2010 10:13:20 AM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Psychonaut23
I can make a pretty solid argument that the feminists won the fight for equality and that to continue fighting for it is pretty much the definition of crazy. Women have 100% equality under the law. What more can be fought for? Only equality of outcomes.

I'll believe that fighting for equality of outcomes is a sane idea when someone can explain to me how to achieve it without resorting to tyranny and hobbling the exceptional.

I'm not going to argue with you about this-I'm sure Aynne or someone could put the counter-argument more eloquently than I could (if I'm honest I have never read the books), and I hate arguing on multiple fronts, especially if someone has just slipped in something objectionable but ultimately distracting-must be my easily-confused feminine side ;-)

I will point out, however, that many of the alterations to 'feminine' stereotypes occurred during the fight for legal equality. I'm sure you aren't going to argue that that fight was unnecessary. Whether or not we still need to fight is not relevant.

quote:

Take me out of the equation and I think that you'll find that none of you can find any common ground on what constitutes masculinity/femininity, that you'll all end up at the point of agreeing to disagree. I think you'll find you're all mired in subjectivity. Which makes every conversation about these topics a pointless endeavor.

I disagree with you here; certainly, I think that we would differ on many points, but I also think that we could find some points we all agreed on.

Obviously we're all mired in subjectivity-duh! But I honestly feel like most of us are at least vaguely on the same page.

quote:

quote:

quote:

I mean basically I think you're all just wrong, and kinda dumb to boot. Sorry if that offends anyone. (I'm not really sorry.)

You said in another post that a) I was intelligent (although I don't see why you're singling me out and still insulting RedMagic, Lockit et al), and b) you had never insulted me. I just want to flag this part of your post up in that context.

I still haven't insulted you directly. And I wasn't thinking about you when I wrote that.

Whether or not it was directed at me specifically, the words 'you all' imply that you were talking to all of us who disagree with you. All of us including me, especially seeing as it was me you were replying to at the time. I'm not running to the hills, screamingly offended, or anything; I'm just pointing out that you do attack people who haven't attacked you-the fact that you weren't thinking about me does not negate the fact that it was me you were talking to. Maybe you need to stop and think before you start slamming everyone in sight, is all I'm saying.

quote:

But I do think some of the ideas you subscribe to are pretty dumb. I have faith I can change your perception of those ideas though, because you do seem intelligent enough to change your mind.

I'm a physics student. As a result I consider getting anything at all right first time to be a minor miracle. So I'm quite happy to change my mind, provided you can supply me with sufficient evidence; I'm willing to admit that definitions of masculinity/femininity are changing and/or disintegrating (depending on how melodramatic you feel the need to be). What I don't accept, however, and what I still don't think you've provided any concrete evidence for, is your original assertion that submission cannot be masculine.

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