RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 3:33:35 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

I can see where Lady Angelika is coming from, though-teaching someone gentlemanly ways of behaving is going to give their confidence a massive boost, for one thing, and that is never going to stop being sexy...

Bingo!

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 3:53:58 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I'm almost ALWAYS ignored and the conversation goes onto talk about those who are interested in feminization.

You aren't being ignored here. :-) Thank you for chiming in and I appreciate your contribution to this thread.

- LA

He might not be, but I damned well am. And I'm not used to it, by thunder, not used to it at all!

Awww... poor poor Peon! Would you like me to pull down your pants in front of everyone and expose you? You will surely not be ignored any longer! ;-)

quote:

Anyway - to all - could we inject a little relativism here? Supposing (and versus the point that, these days, brute strength doesn't equal 'masculinity'): how are we going to compare the relative masculinities of, say, a) Masai Mara tribesmen who, as a rite of passage in their youth, have to kill lions with only spears and b) even the most intensely bush-chested and monobrowed Western Dom who, for some reason, finds himself amongst a group of them? Put it this way: I'll bet the Masai word for 'girl's blouse' would get muttered a lot in the background . . . .

Oh so very, very true! Domliness is all relative.
- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 4:08:28 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
To LadyAngelika's original point, i love holding doors open for my woman. i love being chivalrous. i love protecting Her. i love serving Her. i love pleasing Her. It is just sad that we live in a time where LA and other women feel that chivalry has to be forced. It's a sad commentary about our society.

The "forced" part was meant slightly as a joke. But then again, I find it completely appaling how many people do not hold doors open. A few months back, I was walking into a bank and there are two sets of doors. The young man before me opened the door and let it slam in my face. I caught it and opened it, which made a sound. He did the same with the second door. At this point, a very distinguished gentleman who was exiting the bank tapped the younger man on the shoulder and told him that he might look back and realise that he let the door slam in the face of a lady.

I find it appaling that common chivalry has to be taught. I alluded earlier of absence of coaches when men were young. So I am probably repeating myself, but I see my role as a coach in this, for men who want to learn. Would I rather start out with a man perfectly chivalrous in everyway? Yes. Will I pass up a man who wants to be but hasn't completely learned everything yet? No, not as long as he wants to learn.

What I end up doing is having a talk with potentials, letting them know about this, and asking them if they feel they can be this for me. If the answer is yes, then we take everything one day at a time. One thing is for sure, they will align themselves with this or they will find that we might have quite a bit of a struggle resulting from the incompatibility.

And for the record, I chose a lifestyle in which all the men in my professional and social environment are very much aligned with this type of behaviour. A man that wouldn't be a perfect gentleman would simply stick out like a sore thumb and probably feel very uncomfortable in my environment.

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 4:11:43 PM

PeonForHer

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. . . And, by the way, we haven't even touched on the question of what defines 'feminine' and 'ladylike'. (We very rarely do, on this forum.) The Queen of GB (etc.) has it that to overeat is both unfeminine and unladylike. This is why she always keeps to a gnat's diet. Being overweight is a no-no if one is to be accepted as feminine and ladylike. Being drunk is also unacceptable and (so I've just learned only tonight) women's testosterone levels are boosted by 50% when they're drunk.

So: overweight women who get drunk aren't feminine.

Any takers amongst female forumeers for that particular definition of 'feminine', anyone? Don't all shout "Yes!! Absolutely!!!" at once, now . . . .

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 4:14:32 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

Any takers amongst female forumeers for that particular definition of 'feminine', anyone? Don't all shout "Yes!! Absolutely!!!" at once, now . . .

Please start a new thread to ask this question as to not hijack this one.

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 4:28:16 PM

PeonForHer

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No.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 4:41:17 PM

DommeMae

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeMae
LadyAngelika: It's a stereotype that submissive men aren't masculine. Submissive men are confident, intelligent, dominant men with a desire for feminine charm and a need female leadership and authority.

Oh I know this well! :-)

quote:

I can't speak for all women but the submissive men I let into my life weren't weak, whinny doormats who wanted to be feminized into girly girls. Oh no!!! They see the WOMAN as the one to be pampered and adored.

Ditto.

- LA

Oh yes indeed the submissive man is dominant. If by “dominant” you mean: take charge. Who wouldn’t want to see their submissive embrace that. No question. A man who submits doesn't have to be taught how to submit to female authority, he thrives on female influence. It’s his fetish. She is his fetish.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 4:55:06 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

Any takers amongst female forumeers for that particular definition of 'feminine', anyone? Don't all shout "Yes!! Absolutely!!!" at once, now . . .

Please start a new thread to ask this question as to not hijack this one.

- LA

Perhaps my former answer was a little on the brief side. ;-) You see, I don't believe discussions about what's 'masculine' or 'gentlemanly' can be properly separated from discussions about what's 'feminine' or 'ladylike'. Gentlemen don't tend to go for, or stay with, women who aren't ladylike (according to their own definition of that word). Likewise, men who see themselves as 'masculine' tend only to go for, and stay with, women who they see as 'feminine'.

Or, from what I've seen, anyway. At any rate, it might be worth taking those ideas as a working hypothesis. They might help to explain why, for instance, the 'Goddess' image so many subs have of their femdom partners at the start of D/s relationships suddenly evaporate later on.

But, for what it's worth: for me, 'masculine' and 'feminine' are about as useful to us all here as the term 'natural'. That is, practically useless.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 6:58:28 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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Frankly, i swore to myself i would stay off this post ...

But i will share one thought.

In vanilla life ... no one would ever take me as submissive !!!!!!!!!

An xxx - hole maybe, but submissive .. no.

Yet i love to serve and please the significant Lady (when there is one) in my life.

And if the sexual is a bit "twisted' ... well ... i view it as passionate love-making .... the most passionate imaginable.

That said, i love to put a Lady who earns my trust and respect ... on a pedestal ... and treat Her like the Goddess She is ...

... when She is bright, intelligent, educated, thoughtful and eloquent ... well these traits are HUGE pluses ...

Add in extremely polite and thoughtful in the way She treats other people ... and in my mind ... You have defined ... femininity and Goddess ... with the same words !!!!!!!!!!!

There are feminine Lady Dominants and Goddesses here on Collar Me ... and i am thinking ... some of them are writing on this thread.

Clearly, this is my opinion ... but i will say ... LA, Lockit and the rest of You Beautiful Ladies ... You don't disappoint me ... <big smiles>

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:00:54 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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PS: evaluate by the inner traits ... you just might go to the grave with them ...

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:03:47 PM

Lockit

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Go Wolverines! hehehe I'm sorry... I had to! Rah Michigan! (I am getting email on that wolverine thing! lol)

Now after my... um... redneck, naughty domme act... if you are still talking to me Seeks... That was a real sweet thing to say!

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:08:40 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Santoro

I will give you submission, God, Corps and Country, in that order, a Marines commitment to servitude. I will place myself at the disposal of a woman, I will also leap at the opportunity to face challenges against overwhelming odds, in business or life in general but in support of your position I agree, no woman can teach me to be what I already am.

Not sure how the Marines came into the equation here, but the #1 reason Americans sign up for the military is the simple lack of opportunities elsewhere in their communities and how military service will help pay for one's college education. If the lower classes had access to either good jobs or more affordable education, they would not join the military at all.

During the first stages of the IRAQ war, I believe only one Congressional member had a family member serving in IRAQ -- needless to say -- if they had to send their own family members over there for the war, they might have thought more carefully about whether or not the national costs were worth it.

Psycho seems to be taking some heat -- but I don't see anything wrong with having an anti-war position as a US citizen -- especially when we've used the military for offensive campaigns that have destabilized other countries and costs 10s of thousands of lives in the process.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/16/2010 7:10:05 PM >

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:20:07 PM

Lockit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Santoro

I will give you submission, God, Corps and Country, in that order, a Marines commitment to servitude. I will place myself at the disposal of a woman, I will also leap at the opportunity to face challenges against overwhelming odds, in business or life in general but in support of your position I agree, no woman can teach me to be what I already am.

Not sure how the Marines came into the equation here, but the #1 reason Americans sign up for the military is the simple lack of opportunities elsewhere in their communities and how military service will help pay for one's college education. If the lower classes had access to either good jobs or more affordable education, they would not join the military at all.

During the first stages of the IRAQ war, I believe only one Congressional member had a family member serving in IRAQ -- needless to say -- if they had to send their own family members over there for the war, they might have thought more carefully about whether or not the national costs were worth it.

Psycho seems to be taking some heat -- but I don't see anything wrong with having an anti-war position as a US citizen -- especially when we've used the military for offensive campaigns that have destabilized other countries and costs 10s of thousands of lives in the process.

Oh that is bull shit! I wanted to sign up and tried but I was too small and they wouldn't let me. Why did I want to go? Because I grew up hearing... 'Remember where you come from and the service this family has always provided our country.' Plus I really, really wanted to do boot camp! Drop me on a mountain... see if I can survive... I loved that kind of thing. My son joined recently... not to war... not to get an education or because of no opportunities... but because he has always wanted to be in the military.

And as for the members of American leader's families not serving... you would never... I mean never believe who all I am related to... therefore my son... and many of our family that friggin served and some died. We have had someone in every war this nation has had and we have had losses.

As for the matters war was brought about with... I won't comment and will leave that for the politic's board. But the rest... as far as I see it... was pure opinion and has no truth according to how my family functions.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:25:59 PM

kc692

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider

LOL. I think she is going to look for a looooong time. Of course i could put up a list for my self for a sub, but if she really did exist I would think that she would be looking for Branson (Virgin Airwyas) in stead of a midle aged tradesman with a few pounds extra and a thinning top.
Well we can all dream. Which way did Elizabeth Hurley go?
What i do find absolute amusing is that her profile states only what she wants. Not a single word of what she is offering in return, not even a glimpse of what she might look like.

I have not read past this post on this thread(well not much of it anway,) but am going to. Rockspider, she will kil me for tellin on her but LadyAngelika is red hot gorgeous(truly). I know it is ONE of the reasons she does not put her picture on her profile...

Diva, go ahead and kill me, I know troll mail just bumped up, but maybe the good kind did too. sorry, but it had to be said how RED HAWT wicked you are.

edited to add; Quit beinging up old theads, lol there is one user I know is perusing them this very moment looking for a particular subject to solve a mystery for them.

< Message edited by kc692 -- 1/16/2010 7:27:56 PM >

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:28:03 PM

Lockit

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LOL... KC... you don't know how hard I refrained from saying that! lol I agree!

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:36:41 PM

arkolt2000

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quote:

One of things that has gotten me thinking is why do a great deal of sub men want to be dressed up like women? Is it because they want to be like us? Is it because they look up to us? What I've learned from those I've taken the time to get to know (and of course I'm not implying that this is every crossdresser's motivation) is that there is a desire to ignore the male aspect within themselves, to castrate it emotionally, to supress it.

Well fuck that! I want to bring it out the masculinity in my man ;-)

But surely the point is that many submissive men want to be completely sexually submissive.

being sexually submissive as a man, IMHO, CAN (not exclusively at all) essentially mean that you are a complete provider for a particular woman -it means that you do any task or anything else to please her without question - but she still considers you inadequate as a sexual partner, despite your attempts to please her! (as in you're not manly enough for her, your 'genes' aren't good enough for her, so she exploits your servile attitude, but has sex with other men)

i personally think female sexual dominance over a man can have a lot to do with the rejection and denial of that man's sexual desire for her - based on the fact that he is inadequate as a sexual partner.

This has to do with how much of a "man" you are -

there are psychological studies that show women prefer men who are more dominant - with greater facial signage of high testorone levels, such as strong jaws etc... - when they are at their most fertile during the month. Which indicates that many perhaps prefer more "manly" men as potential fathers/sexual partners??

So surely this desire to be feminised is more to do with a submissive desire to be humiliated as inadequate, in terms of suitability as a sexual partner, on account of a lack of "manliness"? And that a desire to serve a lady that you find very attractive, while simulataneously being humiliated for your lack of manliness by that lady, is a very strong expression of female dominance?

sp

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:44:11 PM

Lockit

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Arkolt... that might be true with some domina's, but by far, not all. You are discribing something that would never happen in my relationships! Never!

You are playing into that falasy that submissive men are weak and nearly worthless and that sexually they are lacking. That is a falsehood. I have had some great lover's, manly man types... good producers of offspring and beautiful one's I might add.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:48:23 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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It has little to do with sexual inadequecy ...

And humiliation can be accomplished in many ways ...

That said ... i am thinking these really desirable Ladies here ... first of all what to be accepted for the wonderful Ladies that they are.

They want you to be first ... a knight in shining armor ... supporting them mentally and emotionally ... caring for them ... concerned about how they feel ... praising them for there accomplishments .... appreciating them for the bright, intelligent people they are ...

Yes, they might have "twisted" sexual desires ... but you have to be real ... and a man in this regard ... to appeal to them ...

and humiliation might just be part of the "twisted" sexual .... but it is really smart to let them define what "twisted" is ... and not "force" it on them with what you want ...

< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 1/16/2010 7:49:50 PM >

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:51:36 PM

arkolt2000

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quote:

Arkolt... that might be true with some domina's, but by far, not all. You are discribing something that would never happen in my relationships! Never!

You are playing into that falasy that submissive men are weak and nearly worthless and that sexually they are lacking. That is a falsehood. I have had some great lover's, manly man types... good producers of offspring and beautiful one's I might add.

But no - i completely think that it's something that CAN BE an expression dominance - DEFINITELY not something that is always present, just a relatively extreme version of female dominance.

It is just one of many expressions of it (IMHO) - and it's one that gives rise to the 'forced feminisation' fantasy, which is what this thread is about, no?

i don't think that all submissive men are weak at all!

i think that some want to be considered as weak though, by a dominant woman - and some want to be considered sexually lacking.

Your version, to me, is just a more extreme version of traditional marriage - and a very healthy kind of submission that many men go through to a greater or lesser extent when they settle with a partner for the long term.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/16/2010 7:54:42 PM

arkolt2000

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