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Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 11:16:45 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		I thought it might interesting to have a discussion on how debating ideas and hearing other people's point of view helps you work things out in the realm of what it is that we do and other aspects of our lives.

In high school, I was the captain of the debate team and I quite loved having heated discussions as it felt it help me form a more multidimensional vision of the world.

I often refer to this great resource on debating. I don't want to post it in it's entirety here as that might be too much of a copyright infringement and make the post too long, but I highly recommend that you read it.

The opening paragraph states:

If we don't want to live in a dictatorship, we must be vigilant to preserve our freedoms.  If we wish to preserve our freedoms, we must be informed on the issues.  Being informed on the issues requires that we become acquainted with alternative points of view.  The history of the development of civilization can be seen as the history of debates on issues.  In democratic societies, there must be public debating.  Newspapers have served this purpose and still do to some extent in this country.  However, we seem to have lost awareness of the importance of debating since the days of Thomas Paine.  The sixty-second sound bite has created the illusion that the important issues are all brief and cut-and-dried.  The importance of debating issues is fading from the public consciousness.  One principle aim of The Truth Tree is to increase awareness of the importance of rational debating.  But constructive debating is an art.  With all this in mind, the following suggestions are offered.

The author goes on to discuss techniques for:
  • Clarity
  • Evidence
  • Emotionalism
  • Causality
  • Innuendo

The author also focusses attention on the following topics:

  • Be sure of your facts.
  • Understand your opponents' arguments. 
  • Do not impute ridiculous or malevolent ideas to your opponent.
  • Regression to the mean.
  • Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric.

And in the end, the author does write that "The idea is that a little invective is a good thing because it adds spice" and I agree with this. But there is a balance, no?

After considering this, do you see how you could use proper debating techniques more effectively here and make Collarme a more enjoyable place to discuss/debate?

- LA


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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 12:24:00 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		I'm changing the world one ignorant person at a time, starting with myself.

I was never a member of a debating team, I’ve just always had things to say. I’m not sure how important it is to win a debate or even how winning a debate is measured? I’m sure that no matter how logical or illogical the things I say are there will be people that disagree with me and agree with me, respectively, based on their own views rather than the strengths of my arguments.

You can only ever convince someone you are right about something if they’ve never really given that something much thought and you have.

I don’t know what the author exactly means by emotionalism. I think it hard to argue when someone states an emotive argument and so think it a deplorable tactic on the whole but lots of people do it.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/23/2010 12:35:16 PM >

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 12:37:16 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

I'm changing the world one ignorant person at a time, starting with myself.


Oh that is a brilliant response! I don't consider myself ignorant, though I might be ignorant in certain areas. And yes, I believe that one of our purposes in life is to evolve!

quote:

I was never a member of a debating team, I’ve just always had things to say. I’m not sure how important it is to win a debate or even how winning a debate is measured? I’m sure that no matter how logical or illogical the things I say are they’ll be people that disagree with me and agree with me, respectively, based on their own views rather than the strengths of my arguments.


In debating competitions, there is honour in winning a debate. Winning is usually based on strength of arguments to prove a point but is taken into balance with the debater's conduct. But most I know aren't in it to win. Respectable debaters are in it for the debate.

quote:

You can only ever convince someone you are right about something if they’ve never really given that something much thought and you have.


Agreed. And I'd argue that I'm not even interested in convincing anyone of my views. I'm interested in presenting my views, hearing others and seeing where we might find common ground and maybe come up with a third, new view.

quote:

I don’t know what the author exactly means by emotionalism. I think it hard to argue when someone states an emotive argument and so think it a deplorable tactic on the whole but lots of people do it.


Well the thing is that when emotional tactics outlined by the author are used, they act as barriers to a debate. Oh yes it's very difficult sometimes to have a debate and not get emotional. I don't think it's always possible. But at the same time, I think that sometimes, we need to put our emotions aside and try and listen to the other person. It is amazing how much we can gain from this.

- LA

Edited to add - PS: Thanks so much for being the first one to dive in. I am wondering if this thread will even go anywhere, but I have high hopes and low expectations :-)


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/23/2010 12:38:18 PM >

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 2:54:12 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I've generally lost my taste for debate. About the deepest I got into it here, was on some abortion threads.

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Skinned up knees and salty lips
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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:18:30 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I've generally lost my taste for debate.


Do you mind sharing why that has happened?

- LA


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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:21:25 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		If you are on the debate team at tables facing one another maybe your ideas are fine. Here in an anonymous net forum? I dunno.

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:26:33 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

If you are on the debate team at tables facing one another maybe your ideas are fine. Here in an anonymous net forum? I dunno.


Ok. What is different? Why couldn't these ideas apply here?

- LA


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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:29:29 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I've generally lost my taste for debate.


Do you mind sharing why that has happened?

- LA



Sure. There are quite a few reasons, among them, a doubt that much good comes from the activity, and also, as I get older, I tend to have more of a "let things be" attitude towards the world. Doesn't mean I like many of the things I see, or hear, but... just let them go.

Following something you mentioned, LA; as I was formulating my thoughts and beliefs, long ago, debate helped me do so. It showed me where some of my ideas were wrong, or lacking, as well as cementing some others.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:47:59 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I've generally lost my taste for debate.


Do you mind sharing why that has happened?

- LA



Sure. There are quite a few reasons, among them, a doubt that much good comes from the activity, and also, as I get older, I tend to have more of a "let things be" attitude towards the world. Doesn't mean I like many of the things I see, or hear, but... just let them go.


Ah so the thrill is gone! ;-)

quote:

Following something you mentioned, LA; as I was formulating my thoughts and beliefs, long ago, debate helped me do so. It showed me where some of my ideas were wrong, or lacking, as well as cementing some others.


Ok, so in your first post, you say that you have a doubt that much good comes from the activity but in the second, you say that long ago, debate helped you formulate your thoughts and beliefs.

Did I understand that well? If I didn't could you please clarify. And if I did, then do you see the same contradiction as me?

- LA


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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:50:53 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The boat has left the dock on this one.

This bunch of people is the most unsophisticated people that I have seen in a long time.

These are the same people who got chauffeured to school in new Cadillacs and daddy bought them a new car for their 16th birthday. This is that crowd.

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:53:32 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline 		Who are you talking about now?

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 3:58:10 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Hello Angelika,

I debate because I enjoy it.  However, when things get into comparisons that can't be made, name calling, and ridiculous insults/personal attacks, I generally step out.  I don't like all or nothing thinking and find that people who participate in that way of looking at the world are unrealistic and rather foolish.

I will sometimes ask someone who is deliberately inflammatory how they came to their conclusions.  I like to hear about their process - partly because I don't like the anger that is behind their attacks and partly because it takes the person off guard and partly because it deepens the discussion so that it is about joining rather than separating. 

Best,
sunshine


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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 4:01:56 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Angelika,

I debate because I enjoy it.  However, when things get into comparisons that can't be made, name calling, and ridiculous insults/personal attacks, I generally step out.  I don't like all or nothing thinking and find that people who participate in that way of looking at the world are unrealistic and rather foolish.


Agreed. Do you think it might because they don't know how to debate properly or chose to ignore the recommended practices such as the ones provided in the tutorial mentioned in the OP?

Do you think that promoting a similar type of tutorial might be helpful?

quote:

I will sometimes ask someone who is deliberately inflammatory how they came to their conclusions.  I like to hear about their process - partly because I don't like the anger that is behind their attacks and partly because it takes the person off guard and partly because it deepens the discussion so that it is about joining rather than separating. 

Best,
sunshine


I think that is a good way of going about it. It is nice when they are able to explain it and not get defensive, right?

- LA




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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 4:07:03 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		LA: yes, there is a seeming contradiction in my two paragraphs The second one was a bit of an "edit", though I did not label it so. Debate was a tool that helped at one time, but to a large degree, I am beyond it. This should not be taken as a statement of "now I know it all", either lol.

pahunk: what in the hell are you talking about?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 4:12:51 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
To me its kind of like chess. I don't think I'll change the world here but I do like to hear what others think and I learn this and that. And I debate to try to keep my wits sharp, its either use it or lose it.

Its also kind of like people watching. We humans are so fucking strange and some of us are just absolute train wrecks while others are totally with it.

But its all fun to experience, and think I take something away from every conversation, one way or another.




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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 4:44:32 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

LA: yes, there is a seeming contradiction in my two paragraphs The second one was a bit of an "edit", though I did not label it so. Debate was a tool that helped at one time, but to a large degree, I am beyond it. This should not be taken as a statement of "now I know it all", either lol.

Ok, so let me propose this. If you've figured out a lot, wouldn't it be beneficial to give back and engage newbies in a debate so that they might get the benefit of figuring thing out?

Oh and I hope you don't think I'm picking on you ;-)

quote:

pahunk: what in the hell are you talking about?


Yeah. That was    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< way out in left field.

- LA


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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 4:59:46 PM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
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It's God's way of keeping us from eating each other.

We're too engaged in passionate opinion to say grace.

chia* (the pet)


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You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 4:59:47 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

LA: yes, there is a seeming contradiction in my two paragraphs The second one was a bit of an "edit", though I did not label it so. Debate was a tool that helped at one time, but to a large degree, I am beyond it. This should not be taken as a statement of "now I know it all", either lol.

Ok, so let me propose this. If you've figured out a lot, wouldn't it be beneficial to give back and engage newbies in a debate so that they might get the benefit of figuring thing out?

Oh and I hope you don't think I'm picking on you ;-)

- LA



Course not.

It could indeed be beneficial, but that's assuming: (1) I'm nice enough to want to do so , and (2), that the newbies here would benefit from it.

Honestly, I very, very rarely see any newbies engaging in such debate. I'm not saying no one ever learns anything here, just that it isn't usually derived from debate. Well, not debate between newbie and "veterans", perhaps the newbie picks things up from watching older posters going at it with one another.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 5:05:42 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

LA: yes, there is a seeming contradiction in my two paragraphs The second one was a bit of an "edit", though I did not label it so. Debate was a tool that helped at one time, but to a large degree, I am beyond it. This should not be taken as a statement of "now I know it all", either lol.

Ok, so let me propose this. If you've figured out a lot, wouldn't it be beneficial to give back and engage newbies in a debate so that they might get the benefit of figuring thing out?

Oh and I hope you don't think I'm picking on you ;-)

- LA



Course not.

Good!

quote:

It could indeed be beneficial, but that's assuming: (1) I'm nice enough to want to do so ,

Oh come on! You are a big sweetie ;-)

quote:


and (2), that the newbies here would benefit from it.

I think they would...

quote:


Honestly, I very, very rarely see any newbies engaging in such debate. I'm not saying no one ever learns anything here, just that it isn't usually derived from debate.

I learned a lot here and elsewhere when I was a newbie!

quote:

Well, not debate between newbie and "veterans", perhaps the newbie picks things up from watching older posters going at it with one another.


Who are you calling old?!?!? ;-)

- LA


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RE: Why do you debate? - 1/23/2010 5:15:26 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Oh come on! You are a big sweetie ;-)


Sometimes...

quote:

I learned a lot here and elsewhere when I was a newbie!


You are perhaps unnaturally inquisitive, as well as intelligent. So, you may have had an experience that would not be replicated all the time.

quote:

Who are you calling old?!?!? ;-)


Umm......them! Over there...yes, that's it...

A number of things come to mind when I think of you, and old isn't one of them.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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