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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 4:58:51 PM

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"neener neener"? Why you, I oughta......

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:02:39 PM

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:06:09 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Probably it was always about control though? You have those ten commandments which tell you how to live your life and in return you get a wonderful afterlife rather than a terrible hell.

Most of the ten commandments I happen to agree with on a personal level and if we could bullet point the aims of religion it should be in this simple form. The trouble is instead you don't have bullet points alone but a text with stories open to interpretation. We don't know at what stages in history and how all of these passages of texts were chopped and changed around. What we know for sure is the message has become convoluted by the personal needs of religious leaders at each translation. The King of England wants a divorce so he just creates a whole new branch of religion.

If it did not have the fear element of Hell then I'd say yes it's great but instead I'm asking why a spiritual text can't make me see how I should live my life without threatening me with reprisals? So I see it as a mechanism for control rather than a text for spiritual enlightenment. I should read the text and know of no better way to live my life, it should be obvious. Why do I need to be told not to kill people, I have no such desires in the first place. My thought process doesn’t involve contemplating what happens to me in an afterlife, so the text must recognise we all have different motivators. I should be convinced (quite easily) just on the basis of what I need and want in this life.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 2/6/2010 5:09:58 PM >

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:11:01 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Only truly religious people know the true meaning of religion don't they?

No just Tazzy, everyone else isn't actually Christian.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/6/2010 5:14:06 PM >

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:13:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

Probably it was always about control though? You have those ten commandments which tell you how to live your life and in return you get a wonderful afterlife rather than a terrible hell.

Most of the ten commandments I happen to agree with on a personal level and if we could bullet point the aims of religion it should be in this simple form. The trouble is instead you don't have bullet points alone but a text with stories open to interpretation. We don't know at what stages in history and how all of these passages of texts were chopped and changed around. What we know for sure is the message has become convoluted by the personal needs of religious leaders at each translation. The King of England wants a divorce so he just creates a whole new branch of religion.

If it did not have the fear element of Hell then I'd say yes it's great but instead I'm asking why a spiritual text can't make me see how I should live my life without threatening me with reprisals? So I see it as a mechanism for control rather than a text for spiritual enlightenment. I should read the text and know of no better way to live my life, it should be obvious. Why do I need to be told not to kill people, I have no such desires in the first place. My thought process doesn’t involve contemplating what happens to me in an afterlife, so the text must recognise we all have different motivators. I should be convinced (quite easily) just on the basis of what I need and want in this life.

Good post.

I'd truly love to be able to compare original texts with what we now have.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:18:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

SL4, I agree with much of your post. Probably where we disagree is that I believe that "twue" religion started out from a good standpoint (love, compassion, honesty, courage, etc), and was warped down the line, and I'm guessing that you may think that it started out warped.

Maybe Jesus started his out that way, well except for the honesty....but I'm quite skeptical about Moses.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:21:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Only truly religious people know the true meaning of religion don't they?

No just Tazzy, everyone else isn't actually Christian.

Yeah, when they get to heaven there will be a lot of disappointment regarding the actual entry requirements.

Say perhaps you want to be a chartered accountant and were under the impression you only needed to take a certain course as part of your degree but in reality you also then needed to take this other course you were unaware of but it's too late now as the course isn't run anymore and so you need to start a whole new degree programme.

This lecturer said to me once 'Don't ask your friends for the answer they don't know the answer, we do.'

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:23:43 PM

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image didn't transfer...trying a different way

< Message edited by mikeyOfGeorgia -- 2/6/2010 5:26:29 PM >

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:27:43 PM

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These guys.

If you look closely, one of "These Guys" is a girl

< Message edited by mikeyOfGeorgia -- 2/6/2010 5:28:09 PM >

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:29:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Christianity is the story of an impressive journey from a small sect to a world wide movement governing and informing our daily lives (believer or otherwise).

The underlying attraction is salvation - this point should inform on what exactly drives religion.

Very well said.

- LA

Indeed.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:31:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

SL4, I agree with much of your post. Probably where we disagree is that I believe that "twue" religion started out from a good standpoint (love, compassion, honesty, courage, etc), and was warped down the line, and I'm guessing that you may think that it started out warped.

Maybe Jesus started his out that way, well except for the honesty....but I'm quite skeptical about Moses.

Yeah, that Moses was tricky.

Something good I read from Herman Hesse:

quote:

I do not consider myself less ignorant than most people. I have been and still am a seeker, but I have ceased to question stars and books; I have begun to listen to the teachings my blood whispers to me. My story is not a pleasant one; it is neither sweet nor harmonious, as invented stories are; it has the taste of nonsense and chaos, of madness and dreams — like the lives of all men who stop deceiving themselves.
Each man's life represents the road toward himself, and attempt at such a road, the intimation of a path. No man has ever been entirely and completely himself. Yet each one strives to become that — one in an awkward, the other in a more intelligent way, each as best he can.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:35:32 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I'd truly love to be able to compare original texts with what we now have.

Very difficult though, there are some ancient languages that contain words which have no real meaning in the modern sense or lead to oversimplification. LaoZi for example translates as 'old master' but is also used to refer to the creator of the LaoZi text. Nobody knows much about the creator of the LaoZi text or even if the author was an amalgamation of many historical figures due to the meaning of LaoZi. If you give the same label to many people over time then it's difficult or impossible to fathom who is who historically and what is what.

Stuff is already lost through translation and that is even before considering creative interpretation. We have to rely on experts with informed opinions.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 2/6/2010 5:37:21 PM >

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 5:49:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3
Only truly religious people know the true meaning of religion don't they?

No just Tazzy, everyone else isn't actually Christian.

LOL... i do believe you got a thing for me, Steel!

But, do show me where i ever claimed to be christian.. or a part of any formal religion, please... bet you cant

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 6:39:11 PM

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But on the whole I think critical thinking would create problems.

That's a very pessimistic view.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 6:55:59 PM

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Yeah I know "religion" is your religion or some such thing, maybe you throw the term spirituality in there somewhere. But considering your metaphorical hard-on for the new testament that really just has to do with your denomination of Christianity.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 7:01:18 PM

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lol.. again.. show me, Steel. I rebutt whats posted.. i dont open up debates on religious or spiritual matters.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 7:14:12 PM

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I wonder if anyone has ever considered what is written down as scriptures was an ideal for that space in time, but time has now moved on, that being what is written might not be applicable to the present or indeed the future. The way I see it with the world, we as a modern people are repeating history in what we do, our interaction with others, we are chasing our tail, going around in circles, that is why we do not progress away from our past. Using a bit of writing from the dim and distant past for something to aspire to, to me, is not moving forward.

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 7:21:44 PM

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i have made that comment before. what was written, was perfect for the time. we grow as a person.. we also grow as a race (read as human race) its called... enlightenment. and i was belittled for bringing it up... lol... something im getting used to seeing around these parts.

people who believe in a higher power dont always have to believe in a particular theology. i, for one, draw from many beliefs... and make it my own. the only thing i am torn on is the "heaven" vs "reincarnation" aspect... im still working on that one

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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 7:26:55 PM

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I can agree with this:
Lack of evidence when billions of people have been searching for evidence of god for 1000s of years is very strong evidence that there is no god. I haven't "chosen" to be an atheist, it is the inevitable conclusion from an objective analysis.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Blind faith isn’t enough for me. Telling me god exists because he created the universe and it exists isn’t proof either. I just need more.

I think the universe was created by itself; no divine being managing the situation. I’m trying to be logical so this makes sense to me.

I don’t want to convert anyone to anything and I guess I’m damned like you said. It has been interesting reading people’s opinions about this website.

It's simple really. We have 3 basic choices:

We can choose to believe that God exists.
We can choose to believe that no God exists.
We can choose to believe that we do not know with absolute certainty whether or not God exists.

During my lifetime observations, I've never seen absolute proof that God does or doesn't exist. Therefore, I have chosen to believe that I do not know.

If anyone out there has absolute proof, please show me.

If you don't have absolute proof, but have still chosen to believe that God does or doesn't exist, please tell me why you have chosen to believe this.

"Absolute proof" is an impossible standard to meet except in mathematics, and even then you run into the incompleteness theorem.

Lack of evidence when billions of people have been searching for evidence of god for 1000s of years is very strong evidence that there is no god. I haven't "chosen" to be an atheist, it is the inevitable conclusion from an objective analysis.