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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/14/2010 5:07:33 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
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quote:

I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation.



well... I don't feel that I have choosen my sexual, gender or kink orientation... but I definitely am making the choice to be active with my given orietntation... and my results (good or bad) are the result of those choices.

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/14/2010 5:24:16 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

Hard to know you are something if you don't know the something even exists.


And even if you know it exists, sometimes it doesn't click right away. Sometimes you don't realise that a possibility exists for you. When your world is telling you that you need to be something else, whether you are young or old, it can be confusing and overwhelming.

- LA


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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/14/2010 5:25:36 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:

I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation.



well... I don't feel that I have choosen my sexual, gender or kink orientation... but I definitely am making the choice to be active with my given orietntation... and my results (good or bad) are the result of those choices.

That actually seemed to be the majority opinion, though some people were strongly against this. Thanks for chiming it.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/14/2010 6:47:59 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
It took you how many years to accept something you already knew about yourself since age 12-17?


If you really think it boils down to a simple question like that, you obviously do not have a clue what sexual orientation confusion is all about.

- LA



The point I was making is that you knew when you were 12-17 years of age.. dispite the confusion it caused you. Hence supporting the comments about people knowing at an early age. regardless of the confusion or issues.


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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/14/2010 7:25:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
It took you how many years to accept something you already knew about yourself since age 12-17?

If you really think it boils down to a simple question like that, you obviously do not have a clue what sexual orientation confusion is all about.

- LA

The point I was making is that you knew when you were 12-17 years of age.. dispite the confusion it caused you. Hence supporting the comments about people knowing at an early age. regardless of the confusion or issues.

I never said the contrary. Go back to the OP.
quote:

Now I'm willing to accept that we might not necessarily chose our desires, but I do think that we are making an active choice when we seek out the relationships that we do.

Just a page ago, I wrote:
quote:

This thread was not meant to be nurture vs nature. I started off by saying that our desires are our desires, no matter how we aquired them. I guess a more accurate way to explain what was going on in my mind as I wrote the OP is that I don't really have a deterministic view of life. Because I am a citizen of a country where I have the right to be who I want to be regardless of challenges getting there, the path I chose is the path I chose. Simply.

While I've appreciated all your contributions to this thread, I'm not sure what is the point of this contribution when you are essentially trying to convince me of what I was saying from the begining. Unless of course I'm missing something, which is always quite possible.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/19/2010 10:39:37 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation.
Carol and I were submissive and dominant long before we knew there were words for those things (and I am not using those words in their kinky context, I'm describing personality attributes). Looking back, I can see how the d/s interplay between us was a large part of what brought us together. In that sense, neither of us chose anything. I didn't choose to be dominant. She didn't choose to be submissive. And I think those two attributes significantly contributed to us becoming a couple without our conscious choice also. I think of it like north and south poles of magnets sticking together... they don't really "choose" to nor does it matter whether they know they are magnets.

What we HAVE chosen is to explore that aspect of us... and so long as it seems to be working out for us, enhance it. That part is conscious choice.. well.. at least for me. I'm less clear how much choice she has in the matter.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 1:22:27 AM   
seekingOwnertoo


Posts: 1323
Joined: 8/1/2009
Status: offline 		Determinism or Choice ????

Well, Lady A, this time ... welcome to flight school ...

The answer to the question You ask ... when it relates to biological matters ... is we are genetically fixed parameters. There is not a whole lot You can do to change them. Basically, in a physical sense, we are animals ....

BUT ... as humans, we are NOT purely genetically fixed animals ...

We also have a spirit ... a spirit that is best described by Socrates famous three part divison of the soul ... Thymos, Desire and Reason.

And each person has a choice in how they utilize the three aspects of their soul ... THAT IS THE CHOICE PART.

And the choices we have are MORAL in nature ... not physical ...

By moral i mean ... rob a bank, cheat your friend, steal your neighbors spouse ... or what ever. Conversely we also have a choice to listen to other people, care for each other, live by the golden rule ... or whatever.

When we die, the judgement part comes FROM how we handle/manage/utilize our MORAL CHOICES!

That said ... it matters NOT ... whether You are Dominant, submisssive, gay, hetro etc. etc. etc.

What matters is HOW YOU GROW IN YOUR RELATIONSHIPS ... are You handling them MATURELY ... and growing with each other in a mature way, understanding each other ...

The sexual acts and preferences don't matter one iota ... because that can be love in the scope of a mature relationship ...

The point is ... when we understand that Our reason can RULE thymos and desire ... then we are truly human. But choosing to let reason rule our lives ... is a very difficult CHOICE ... every day ... in every way!

Just ask me ... i am a Jenious .... LOL

Sorry for preaching ... but someone just woke this dead thread up .. and the title was TOO delicious for me to pass up ... LOL ... but do stay away from philosophy ... when i am in the area!

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 6:35:11 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Now I'm willing to accept that we might not necessarily chose our desires, but I do think that we are making an active choice when we seek out the relationships that we do.



Active choices require being self aware of the intrinsic motivations that drive us and most people utterly lack that ability.  I had to learn to be kinky, I wasn't one of those kids with wierd sexual fantasies, I sort of backed into kink.  I wasn't even always dominant, as a kid I was very much a puppy dog to women but as I matured into myself, as I began to come into my own, I became domiNEERing.  I used my physical size, my intellect to emotionally abuse and manipulate women into giving me what I wanted. 

CHOOSE that path?  Oh hell no!  I was in a fog of my own issues, insecurities, and the other crap people have to work through.

The only thing I chose to do was to want to have better, healthier relationships.  Each one has been better than the last.  I keep choosing better partners, I keep creating better relationships, I strive to be a better person.

THAT is the only choice I have made, why I like women was settled by biology, why I seek out dominant women to subdue was probably set by my mother, why I like forced anal sex was probably just luck.  But becoming a talented and creative dominant was an active choice I make every day.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 7:46:10 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I'm of the opinion we choose who we are.

But I also believe we choose everything we do and are in life.

I think using this whole "born this way" has become an excuse that is prevalent in our "mememe" society.

I chose to be submissive to Master because he inspired it in me. It may have been inspired but I could have just as easily walked away and continued to seek someone else. I'm more than glad I didn't but I could have.



(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 7:48:21 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I pretty much dont think I had any input when my parents thunk me up.

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RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 8:06:45 AM   
RealSub58


Posts: 1073
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Now I'm willing to accept that we might not necessarily chose our desires, 

I actually have a hard time accepting that an able mind and bodied mature individual living in the Western World feels they aren't actively chosing their sexual, gender or kink orientation.

- LA


people choose their desires. 
they have options. 
from their experience, their genetic make up, cultural identity.... people make choices of what desires they want, need and don't want or need.

then at one point in their life, they come to want desires they once thought not desireable.

sexual orientation in a button to push if you are having a disagreement or want a hotly debated topic.

gender?   actively chosen if wanting/needing to change.

what i think interesting about kink is that most people dont realize a practiced sexual desire might even be a kink to someone else.
example  -- sucking cock and anal sex. 
i never questioned if they were unusual, i never saw them as  kink.  just desireable even before i became Sir's wanton cumslut

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 8:11:02 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Now I'm willing to accept that we might not necessarily chose our desires, but I do think that we are making an active choice when we seek out the relationships that we do.



Active choices require being self aware of the intrinsic motivations that drive us and most people utterly lack that ability.  I had to learn to be kinky, I wasn't one of those kids with wierd sexual fantasies, I sort of backed into kink.  I wasn't even always dominant, as a kid I was very much a puppy dog to women but as I matured into myself, as I began to come into my own, I became domiNEERing.  I used my physical size, my intellect to emotionally abuse and manipulate women into giving me what I wanted. 

CHOOSE that path?  Oh hell no!  I was in a fog of my own issues, insecurities, and the other crap people have to work through.

The only thing I chose to do was to want to have better, healthier relationships.  Each one has been better than the last.  I keep choosing better partners, I keep creating better relationships, I strive to be a better person.

THAT is the only choice I have made, why I like women was settled by biology, why I seek out dominant women to subdue was probably set by my mother, why I like forced anal sex was probably just luck.  But becoming a talented and creative dominant was an active choice I make every day.



Thanks for your insight Michael. When I said choice in my OP, I wasn't limiting it to active choice.

It is my opinion that we are always making choices, consciously or unconsciously and those choices are highly influenced by how we were born and how we were socialized to be.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 8:21:29 AM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Resisting the attempts of others to define you is a good start. Realizing that the social structure in which you reside may not be the correct expression of the core self is often a good beginning.

Customs and social roles come down from ancient roots which may no longer even be valid to those who practice them today-but the inculcation and reenforcement of mores still keep them alive.

So one starts by examining history.

Then you sound out possible paths you might find fullfilling to pursue. Passion and interest will always key you-they can be changed if the realities fail to match imagination and expectation.

Personally, I have no desire to be a slave to vanilla expectations. Or to live in the shackles of a dead past. Determiinsim is about exploring possibilities in life beyond the pale of the herd.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 9:31:55 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I'm a bisexual switch - right now, I have a Master and a female submissive playpartner. I don't have the impression that I "chose" to be either, more that I discovered that I was interested in both. I do choose who to get involved with, but I can't choose to dominate or submit to them. We spend time together, do things together, interact in various ways, and either it develops, or it doesn't. I don't view D/s as having any correlation whatsoever to personality in general. Some dominants are shy, and possibly even need to develop self-confidence. Some submissives are very assertive, and will step into leadership positions readily when necessary.

When I was searching, before my Master and I got involved, I didn't care what BDSM orientation label people had, only whether or not I was compatible with that individual person. It was lumped in with ethnicity, eye color, and height as neutral. I am a lot more attracted to women than men in general, although the emotional compatibility has been more of an issue than the sex/BDSM aspects.

(in reply to Smutmonger)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Who you are. A question of determinism or did you h... - 2/20/2010 9:40:26 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		There is a real debate going on that reflects the clash between "identity" and role assignment - to riff off of domiguy here, having an "unusual" gender identity is a choice, we do choose our roles, but in the sense that we tend to choose that with with which we are happy and comfortable, and we are happiest with that which reflects our identity.

Often, even if it happens to be inconvenient for ourselves or others, or even subject to considerable opposition - because role assignment is what "society" does, and they assign roles that are convenient for them, whether it's racial, socio-economic, or gender stereotyping, your "happiness" or to what extent it reflects your internal identity is really not their concern.

In fact, you can get away with being as queer as a Three dollar bill as long as you play the outward role of denouncing it for the convenience of "society"- shit, it's practically become the definition of the republican party, they're very much obsessed with the appearance of things, and are apparent; more comfortable with this elaborate, practically farcical facade, than they are with just dealing with things as they are, and allowing people to be who they are - why "society" would collapse - chaos - cats fucking dogs, the whole thing.



< Message edited by xssve -- 2/20/2010 9:41:52 AM >

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 175
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