RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle

RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (Full Version)

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alicenwondrland -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/20/2010 9:22:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth So, here's a fun philosophical question: Should people with mental health disorders be considered competent to be "in the lifestyle", or should the non-normative psychological functioning preclude someone from participating in WIITWD? Assume I'm talking about non-violent, "manageable" disorders, such as mood/anxiety disorders, OCD, Autism spectrum, etc. - not violent disorders or disorders involving severe delusional thought or behavior. If someone happens to be kinky and crazy, should their kink go unfulfilled? (for that matter, if someone has to be crazy, should they be having intimate/romantic/sexual relations at all?) Lol you consider "manageable disorders" to be crazy? Also, I totally had to look up WIITWD. Well isn't it really a moot question, because you know how people do whatever they want anyway. And people in these groups tend to have less control over their behavior to begin with...so even if they knew an act was not a good idea on some level, they'd probably engage in it anyway...so isn't the real question then, who decides who should play, and how do they decide this, and most of all, how to prevent people if its decided to be not a good idea?

alicenwondrland -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/20/2010 9:24:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: specialk2611 I still want to hear the theory as to why someone with OCD can't have sex? lol... I think having OCD means you're crazy, despite it being a "manageable disorder"[;)]

MsLeatherLace69 -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/20/2010 9:33:09 PM)
I volunteered at a day center for those with mental health issues. Some were very minimal and some were severe. None were a risk to themselves or to others. A reasonable person spending a little bit of time could tell who were the high functioners and who were not. I saw staff become verbally abusive but never saw the members do that to each other. Risks are often higher from "normals" unless you are discussing those who are criminally insane. Mental illness still carries a much great stigma than it should.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/20/2010 9:41:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsLeatherLace69 I volunteered at a day center for those with mental health issues. Some were very minimal and some were severe. None were a risk to themselves or to others. A reasonable person spending a little bit of time could tell who were the high functioners and who were not. I saw staff become verbally abusive but never saw the members do that to each other. Risks are often higher from "normals" unless you are discussing those who are criminally insane. Mental illness still carries a much great stigma than it should. That said, the common narrative here is that "if something seems off, don't walk - run". People are frequently admonished for staying as far away from the "crazy" as possible. That doesn't seem to be the theme in this thread, but then... how do you reconcile the two narratives?

NihilusZero -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/20/2010 11:05:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth That said, the common narrative here is that "if something seems off, don't walk - run". People are frequently admonished for staying as far away from the "crazy" as possible. That doesn't seem to be the theme in this thread, but then... how do you reconcile the two narratives? Sexual/romantic involvement with someone else rides too heavily on the presumption of adulthood/consent (why the concept of underage sexual activity is such a horrific social no-no) to allow much wiggle room. People with mental disorders are prone to garner positive wishfulness...but it's clearly the sort that borders of a flavor variation of pity or pretty patronization; especially when the situation is looked at from a hypothetical angle (humans only vary their concept of an ethical paradigm once it's affecting them personally).

LafayetteLady -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 12:03:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder It depends. Are they stable? Are they taking their meds regularly? Are they under a doctor's care/authority? Going to psych appointments regularly? Monitored? If so then yes. If not then they have a lot of work to do and while they may still seek this out I sure as hell would not want to get into such a mess. Realistically, if someone is suffering from some mental malady and is NOT doing any of the above, they shouldn't be entering into ANY relationship, BDSM or vanilla. People who aren't stable are not making good decisions. Now if someone is already IN a relationship and develops some type of mental issue, that is a totally different situation. They are already involved in a relationship, and as such, partners support each other through such things, not simply bail because there is a problem. As for the OCD portion, while it is considered a mental disorder, the level of OCD (thanks Lucienne for the hysterical mental picture) would be very relevant as to whether they were capable of functioning in a relationship. While Lucienne's comment was funny, for sufferers of OCD like Howie Mandel, I don't think he would be capable of partaking in the activities without suffering emotional trauma (my understanding is there is a certain degree of "germophobia" in his case). But overall, while there are more complexities to BDSM relationships than vanilla, anyone suffering from mental instability should not be entering into either type of relationship.

Ialdabaoth -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 12:06:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Now if someone is already IN a relationship and develops some type of mental issue, that is a totally different situation. They are already involved in a relationship, and as such, partners support each other through such things, not simply bail because there is a problem. Hahahahahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oohhhhh I laugh because it hurts.

BLoved -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 3:39:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth That said, the common narrative here is that "if something seems off, don't walk - run". People are frequently admonished for staying as far away from the "crazy" as possible. That doesn't seem to be the theme in this thread, but then... how do you reconcile the two narratives? The more potential for harm one can imagine, the less tolerant one is likely to be.

allthatjaz -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 6:42:32 AM)
We can be the only ones as individuals that decides what is too risky or not. When I think how many times I have been told by a sub or Dom that their recent partner turned out to be a nutcase, it shows how easily people can and do manipulate a reputation on others. The easiest and most vindictive way to start a rumor on the scene is to put it about that a certain person suffers from some sort of insanity. I would like to throw a question on the table here. You have been with your partner for some time. You feel a lot for her/him and you seem like a great match. She/He then tells you one night over one too many Bacardi and cokes that she/he has attempted suicide in the past or has in the past, been committed for serious depression. How do you think you would handle that?

BLoved -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 7:01:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: allthatjaz I would like to throw a question on the table here. You have been with your partner for some time. You feel a lot for her/him and you seem like a great match. She/He then tells you one night over one too many Bacardi and cokes that she/he has attempted suicide in the past or has in the past, been committed for serious depression. How do you think you would handle that? I would hope she would be willing to tell me about it when she's sober. I would ask her what caused the problem, how long ago, was it resolved and how. I would not want to hold it against her if it is in the past and was resolved. I would be concerned if there were unresolved issues and would hope she would choose to resolve them. I would encourage her to do so and would help her with that if I could (if nothing else, offering support while encouraging her to work through this with a professional). I would offer sympathy and understanding as best I can regardless of whether the issues are resolved or not ... no one wants to suffer like that.

juliaoceania -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 7:04:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BLoved quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub I didn't ask if they can have sex. I said "are they capable of consenting to vanilla sex?". My point being that if we are willing to regard them as capable of consenting to the "basic" sex acts, then I don't think we can pick and choose what else they are able to consent to. So how 'crazy' does someone have to be before you say "No, I won't share vanilla sex with you"? That would depend on whether or not I was involved with them before or after they began to have problems... "crazy" is not how most people with mental disorders would be referred to. Having depression, PTSD, and anxiety does not make one "crazy", but these are mental disorders. I have been involved with someone that was suffering from depression because of an injury he sustained that caused the chemistry in his brain to become altered. Chronic pain can do this. I saw my mother go through the same thing. Personally, I do not throw people away because they have problems, life is about learning to overcome and transcend these things, to not get beaten by them, and it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are. At the time I met my Daddy I was a couple years out from being diagnosed with mild PTSD because of the death of my father when I was a youngster and I blamed myself for his death. I carried this around for over 20 years before I dealt with it. I started waking up with my heart racing, nightmares... and I had always had phobias.. not much was known about PTSD when my father passed, or perhaps I would have been given adequate support to protect me from it. My Daddy accepted me even though I was still learning to manage my anxiety, and would do things to calm myself down like talk myself down out loud. I did this the first time I spent a few weeks with him because I lost my ID and without it I couldn't get on a plane, and this caused me so much anxiety I almost couldn't breathe... he loved me anyways. These days we are both well. Neither of us have these sorts of issues... it really is about life. Life happens, and sometime things are good and at other times they are not so good. I would rather be with someone that would stick by me when things were not rosy than the other type of person who attempted to ascertain how damaged I am before thinking me fit for human consumption.

BLoved -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 7:43:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Personally, I do not throw people away because they have problems, life is about learning to overcome and transcend these things, to not get beaten by them, and it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are. I don't think it is fair to characterize anyone who cannot cope with the manifestations of another's illness as "self-centered". There are many illnesses and dysfunctions which can be exceptionally challenging, especially for someone who has no training or experience. True, some people give up at the drop of a hat, some people run. However, some people try very hard to cope, to help their partner, only to discover nothing they do helps and they are living in misery all the time. I think they feel guilty enough without also being tagged as "self-centered".

juliaoceania -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 8:22:31 AM)
quote: I don't think it is fair to characterize anyone who cannot cope with the manifestations of another's illness as "self-centered". Hmmmm... as someone who has taken care of infirm family members, my own child, and my ill dom, I would have to disagree with you.. there is nothing wrong with being self centered, but self centered it is... quote: There are many illnesses and dysfunctions which can be exceptionally challenging, especially for someone who has no training or experience. Again as someone who took care of a family member who was wheelchair bound, had COPD, emphysema, blind from and brain damaged from coming back from being dead for 15 minutes... yes I agree that it is challenging, but to dump a person when they need you the most... um..... not my style... although there are a lots of people who do this every day. If that is what makes em happy, go them, but it does not change who they are as far as being self centered. quote: True, some people give up at the drop of a hat, some people run. However, some people try very hard to cope, to help their partner, only to discover nothing they do helps and they are living in misery all the time. I think they feel guilty enough without also being tagged as "self-centered". I am not saying that at times one doesn't have to give care over to an institution, but again to dump someone because they are too challenging, I was just raised differently and I have different values... just because you are ill-equipped to care for someone doesn't mean you dump them... Meaning you go and visit them, you show concern for them, you make sure they are not laying somewhere in their own filth That is being RESPONSIBLE for a partner.. which is something you advocate for infinitively

BLoved -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 8:24:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Personally, I do not throw people away because they have problems, life is about learning to overcome and transcend these things, to not get beaten by them, and it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are. Having given this more thought I wanted another go at it, and since this isn't a minor edit, I thought a second response appropriate. There are a lot of people who expect the healthy partner to 'fix' the one who is ill. I think that unfair. The healthy partner can help the one who is ill only to the degree the one who is ill is willing to help him/her self. Someone who is ill and refuses to acknowledge the illness, or refuses to seek help, or refuses to follow through with the therapy cannot be forced by the one who is healthy. Short of being declared legally incompetent a person who is ill enjoys all the rights and freedoms of anyone healthy. Consider alcoholism. There is no law to prevent someone from drinking him or herself into a stupor. If he or she refuses to address the problem, there is nothing a healthy partner can do except choose to live with the problem or leave. Consider, Julia, how many woman thought as you do and stayed in a relationship where domestic violence occured. Some people don't know when to give up for their own good, or that of their children. I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all answer to when to stay and when to give up. Some people can be helped, some cannot, some people can help, some cannot. I also think a lot depends upon whether in fact a relationship exists or not. We live in a world where some people won't consider anyone under 6-foot as a dating partner, and others who refuse to date anyone over 125 pounds. Choosing not to begin a relationship with someone who is either demonstrating or admitting to a problem can't possibly be seen as any more superficial a reason than the two I just gave, and for many people I am sure it is the right choice. What makes this tragic, at least for me, is that no one should have to go through life unloved. But because so many illnesses affect judgment, it is really important that those who are ill resolve those issues as much as is possible before judging who will be a good choice for them. And I think it important that those who are healthy not take advantage of such an illness to get themselves chosen.

juliaoceania -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 8:33:46 AM)
quote: Consider, Julia, how many woman thought as you do and stayed in a relationship where domestic violence occured. Some people don't know when to give up for their own good, or that of their children. That is not what we are talking about here... We are talking about mental illness which you basically stated that someone with problems was incapable of consenting to a relationship. Mental illness is the same as any other illness. Now I wouldn't probably be attracted to someone who is mentally ill, or physically incapacitated, but that doesn't mean they are not fit to be in a relationship with someone that finds value in them. I would not end a relationship because someone became depressed or physically incapacitated, because once I love someone I love them... As far as being abusive, there is no mental illness that causes people to be assholes.. that is not a mental condition. Of course if someone becomes a danger to themselves or others they need medical intervention... quote: I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all answer to when to stay and when to give up. Some people can be helped, some cannot, some people can help, some cannot. Again, since I see mental illness as any other illness, like breast cancer, I am sure a lot of men would agree with you, and give up on their mates when they have a breast removed.... Either it is an illness or it isn't an illness... You are the one that is attaching a negative emotion to the term "self centered". I am not. I can be extremely self centered. I look out for me first. I do not think people should be shamed for doing so, and I call a spade a spade... leaving someone who becomes ill is self centered.... You are right, there are many reasons to be self centered, one of which is looking out for number one. My PTSD was in fact triggered by caring for my step father.. but in retrospect I got far more out of it than the pain it caused me....

BLoved -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 8:57:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Consider, Julia, how many woman thought as you do and stayed in a relationship where domestic violence occured. Some people don't know when to give up for their own good, or that of their children. That is not what we are talking about here... We are talking about mental illness which you basically stated that someone with problems was incapable of consenting to a relationship. Mental illness is the same as any other illness. Now I wouldn't probably be attracted to someone who is mentally ill, or physically incapacitated, but that doesn't mean they are not fit to be in a relationship with someone that finds value in them. I would not end a relationship because someone became depressed or physically incapacitated, because once I love someone I love them... As was true for me when my wife developed cancer. I used domestic violence because it is a form of mental illness we all understand. I am not versed in all illnesses but I am aware of enough of them to think of a few that would give reason for someone to hesitate. Understand, if the people involved have exchanged life-long vows in love then I would hope neither would run. But I would understand the need to run if the illness were untreated and posed a risk to the well-being of others, either physical or emotional. But if those vows have not yet occurred, I can understand either hesitating at the thought of what they might be called upon to endure. In that case self-centeredness is understandable, as neither have made the commitment to a life together and both are still considering what is best for themselves. They may also be concerned about what is best for the other, but their own interests are still dominant. quote: As far as being abusive, there is no mental illness that causes people to be assholes.. that is not a mental condition. Of course if someone becomes a danger to themselves or others they need medical intervention... Being abusive is a symptom of low self-esteem. It is the same reason as the playground bully beats up littler kids. It is an over-inflated sense of self-worth to compensate for feelings of inadequacy and inferiority. It can be treated. quote: quote: I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all answer to when to stay and when to give up. Some people can be helped, some cannot, some people can help, some cannot. Again, since I see mental illness as any other illness, like breast cancer, I am sure a lot of men would agree with you, and give up on their mates when they have a breast removed.... "Endings" - A True Story quote: Either it is an illness or it isn't an illness... Not all illnesses are alike, nor can all be tolerated to the same degree, nor is everyone prepared to handle everything that can possibly go wrong, nor does everyone who is ill seek out treatment. quote: You are the one that is attaching a negative emotion to the term "self centered". I am not. I can be extremely self centered. I look out for me first. I do not think people should be shamed for doing so, and I call a spade a spade... leaving someone who becomes ill is self centered.... You said "... it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are." I am not the one attaching a "negative emotion" to your statement. The negativity is clear enough in the original. quote: You are right, there are many reasons to be self centered, one of which is looking out for number one. My PTSD was in fact triggered by caring for my step father.. but in retrospect I got far more out of it than the pain it caused me.... Not everyone does.

juliaoceania -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 9:05:12 AM)
quote: I used domestic violence because it is a form of mental illness we all understand. I have never seen domestic violence or people who commit domestic violence as being mentally ill... just because mentally ill people have done this does not mean that all mentally ill people do.. And there are many abusive people who are NOT mentally ill... therefore you are wrong to call this a form of mental illness... it isn't quote: Understand, if the people involved have exchanged life-long vows in love then I would hope neither would run. But I would understand the need to run if the illness were untreated and posed a risk to the well-being of others, either physical or emotional. I stated that you must address people that are a risk to themselves or others... this takes the form of getting that person help. If I had a child that was a risk to themselves or to others I wouldn't leave them either... quote: But if those vows have not yet occurred, I can understand either hesitating at the thought of what they might be called upon to endure. In that case self-centeredness is understandable, as neither have made the commitment to a life together and both are still considering what is best for themselves. They may also be concerned about what is best for the other, but their own interests are still dominant. Some of us do not need vows to be committed. I never exchanged a vow with my step father, if I ever care for my mother I have never taken a vow with her either quote: Not all illnesses are alike, nor can all be tolerated to the same degree, nor is everyone prepared to handle everything that can possibly go wrong, nor does everyone who is ill seek out treatment. I would say that in the case of alcoholism this is true, it would also be true I suppose if someone refused treatment for cancer also. quote: You said "... it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are." I am not the one attaching a "negative emotion" to your statement. The negativity is clear enough in the original I do not think people who are self centered to the exclusion of caring about my welfare as being worthy of my time. It does not mean they aren't worthy of someone else's.... Edited to add... you were the one that stated that people need to be without mental illness to be involved in relationships.. parsing my words does not support your own

BLoved -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 9:27:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I used domestic violence because it is a form of mental illness we all understand. I have never seen domestic violence or people who commit domestic violence as being mentally ill... just because mentally ill people have done this does not mean that all mentally ill people do.. And there are many abusive people who are NOT mentally ill... therefore you are wrong to call this a form of mental illness... it isn't I consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness. Some forms of illness have physical causes, such as bi-polar. Some forms of illness are the result of experiences, such as post-traumatic stress. Low self-esteem fits within this category. quote: quote: Understand, if the people involved have exchanged life-long vows in love then I would hope neither would run. But I would understand the need to run if the illness were untreated and posed a risk to the well-being of others, either physical or emotional. I stated that you must address people that are a risk to themselves or others... this takes the form of getting that person help. If I had a child that was a risk to themselves or to others I wouldn't leave them either... You cannot force an adult to get help if they have not been declared legally incompetent. If the adult in question refuses help, there will be no "getting that person help". quote: quote: But if those vows have not yet occurred, I can understand either hesitating at the thought of what they might be called upon to endure. In that case self-centeredness is understandable, as neither have made the commitment to a life together and both are still considering what is best for themselves. They may also be concerned about what is best for the other, but their own interests are still dominant. Some of us do not need vows to be committed. I never exchanged a vow with my step father, if I ever care for my mother I have never taken a vow with her either I beg to differ. You have in your heart. I am not speaking of formal vows. I am speaking of loving someone so much you'd go through hell for them. When you make that decision, that's a "vow" you make to yourself and your loved one. quote: quote: Not all illnesses are alike, nor can all be tolerated to the same degree, nor is everyone prepared to handle everything that can possibly go wrong, nor does everyone who is ill seek out treatment. I would say that in the case of alcoholism this is true, it would also be true I suppose if someone refused treatment for cancer also. A lot of people live in denial about problems because they're just too afraid to face them. quote: quote: You said "... it shows us who is worthy of our time and attention, and who the self centered people who can't deal with life are." I am not the one attaching a "negative emotion" to your statement. The negativity is clear enough in the original I do not think people who are self centered to the exclusion of caring about my welfare as being worthy of my time. It does not mean they aren't worthy of someone else's.... Edited to add... you were the one that stated that people need to be without mental illness to be involved in relationships.. parsing my words does not support your own I am addressing your belief that people who leave are "self centered people who can't deal with life". I think that's an unfair characterization. I think everyone does the best they can, some do better than others. Not everyone has the skills to handle such a relationship as this topic covers. I would not condemn anyone who felt the need to run. Living with someone who is dying is hell, because you want to hope she'll beat the odds and there is that dread she won't. There were more than a few times when I wished I could have escaped those feelings. But the thought of her alone with that ... We each do the best we can, but I'll fault no one who runs.

juliaoceania -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 9:51:15 AM)
quote: I consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness. Where did you do your residency as a psychiatrist? quote: Some forms of illness have physical causes, such as bi-polar. Some forms of illness are the result of experiences, such as post-traumatic stress. Low self-esteem fits within this category. PTSD does not fit this category... you have no basis for saying this and it truly shows that you do not understand this disorder quote: You cannot force an adult to get help if they have not been declared legally incompetent. If the adult in question refuses help, there will be no "getting that person help". If someone is making threats against themselves and others you can intervene legally quote: I am not speaking of formal vows. I am speaking of loving someone so much you'd go through hell for them. To me that is what your original statement was getting at..... formal vows quote: I am addressing your belief that people who leave are "self centered people who can't deal with life". I never said self centered people can't deal with life... if I had said this you would have directly quoted it, which this shows your propensity to put words into other people's mouths. Self centered people often choose not to deal with something, doesn't mean they "can't". I would be the first to say some people "can't"... but that doesn't change that the reason that they can't is that they are centered on themselves. There is nothing wrong with being self centered... in fact in some cases it is laudable. It means one knows themselves and what they can and cannot do, but it is what it is... I quote: think everyone does the best they can, some do better than others. Not everyone has the skills to handle such a relationship as this topic covers. I would not condemn anyone who felt the need to run. Agreed... and what does that have to do with whether or not someone can consent to being in an intimate relationship with a person that has been diagnosed with a mental condition or the person who has that condition being fit to consent to being involved? Nothing quote: Living with someone who is dying is hell, because you want to hope she'll beat the odds and there is that dread she won't. You are confusing your issues with dealing with a dying mate with the ability of people to consent to being with a person with mental problems... people can and do consent to being in these relationships daily... quote: There were more than a few times when I wished I could have escaped those feelings. But the thought of her alone with that ... We each do the best we can, but I'll fault no one who runs. I haven't faulted anyone... I have just stated that someone who would leave a mate to rot in a convalescent hospital or a mental ward without a further thought and just carry on with life because that person is ill... these people are self centered... There is nothing inherently wrong with being self centered, I can be tremendously so when I feel it is justified. We get one shot at life and living it, people do what they can live with and if someone can live with dropping a loved one off and never looking in their rear view mirror, well that is on them.. I can't, and that is all about me, I do not want to be that sort of person so again, my motivation is not always a selfless one, but founded on who I want to be in this world... Get back to the topic at hand... people with depression, bipolar disorder, even schizophrenia, often have long term or life long relationships with friends, family, and loved ones... and your contention that they cannot consent to this is ludicrous in my mind... As I said, I wouldn't knowingly involve myself with someone that has more problems than I do.. of any sort, but after that commitment is there I ain't running out on that person, even if I do not have the technical ability to care for them, I am still visiting, making sure that they are properly cared for, etc. Your mileage may differ....

DarkSteven -> RE: Mental Health and the lifestyle (2/21/2010 9:53:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BLoved I consider all forms of dysfunctional behaviour as symptoms of mental illness. You're replacing the nebulous term "mental illness" with an equally nebulous one, "dysfunctional behavior".

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