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RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 6:51:43 PM

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Remember if you suffer from being an unHappy Doormat in life, we won't talk about it because it will upset those Happy doormats. Let's not upset the Happy Doormats by reminding them that there are truely unhappy Doormats. It would be a breach of their beliefs and personal understanding.

Anyways, if you are an Unhappy Doormat, you're pretty much screwed because there is no way for it to be dealt with properly! All the countless articles and books on the topic are just worthless. Remember, you have a real life issue that can not be dealt with properly, you're screwed. Don't even bother trying therapy even, why because it can't be dealt with properly.

Sarcasim applied as needed in above statement. Please this is just the internet, don't take anything seriously.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 3/1/2010 6:56:39 PM >

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RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 7:02:29 PM

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Whiplash, I'm pretty much with wisdomtogive on the subject. I don't really care that much one way or the other, and don't plan to use it either way. I do think that people finding the identifiers, as well as the pet names, that they feel are most accurate is good. Also, perhaps because it was so long before I got involved in the public Scene, I never really got much into the jargon, or slashy speak, or weird capitalisation, "true/real" fill-in-the-blank, and so forth. I personally feel there's a huge difference between domination and sadism, and between submission and masochism, but a lot of people use them interchangeably. Other than not wanting to play with them, it doesn't bother me at all - I'm not involved with them, so I don't get any say. When people have tried to argue with me that I must be submissive, or whatever, and I didn't identify with the label or their reasoning, I got rather annoyed and creeped out. They don't know me better than I do, they don't have any right to determine *my* identity. The same word can have different meanings - heck, even contradictory meanings at times! For example, "strike" can mean both hit and miss. The English language is really odd that way.

Generally, people can sort things out from the context. If someone is unhappy or in an abusive relationship, having a different relationship label won't change anything. When we speak of "submission" here, we don't mean that their mouth is slightly foamy and their tail is swinging, like it does in Dressage. Tensing up and grinding their teeth doesn't automatically mean that they aren't submitting, just that perhaps they are struggling a bit.

tazzygirl, I'm a little confused by your confusion, since I mentioned his name!

osf, here are 4 different unicorn doormats for you to choose from. http://wrinkydinkspetgifts.stores.yahoo.net/hoinoutdodom.html I think this one is the prettiest: http://www.wrinkydinks.com/yahoo/horses/horsei128.jpg

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 3/1/2010 7:12:07 PM >

(in reply to Icarys)

RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 7:07:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Whiplash, I'm pretty much with wisdomtogive on the subject. I don't really care that much one way or the other, and don't plan to use it either way. I do think that people finding the identifiers, as well as the pet names, that they feel are most accurate is good. Also, perhaps because it was so long before I got involved in the public Scene, I never really got much into the jargon, or slashy speak, or weird capitalisation, "true/real" fill-in-the-blank, and so forth. I personally feel there's a huge difference between domination and sadism, and between submission and masochism, but a lot of people use them interchangeably. Other than not wanting to play with them, it doesn't bother me at all - I'm not involved with them, so I don't get any say. When people have tried to argue with me that I must be submissive, or whatever, and I didn't identify with the label or their reasoning, I got rather annoyed and creeped out. They don't know me better than I do, they don't have any right to determine *my* identity.

tazzygirl, I'm a little confused by your confusion, since I mentioned his name!

osf, here are 4 different unicorn doormats for you to choose from. http://wrinkydinkspetgifts.stores.yahoo.net/hoinoutdodom.html I think this one is the prettiest: http://www.wrinkydinks.com/yahoo/horses/horsei128.jpg

Well put.

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RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 7:39:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Whiplash, I'm pretty much with wisdomtogive on the subject. I don't really care that much one way or the other, and don't plan to use it either way. I do think that people finding the identifiers, as well as the pet names, that they feel are most accurate is good. Also, perhaps because it was so long before I got involved in the public Scene, I never really got much into the jargon, or slashy speak, or weird capitalisation, "true/real" fill-in-the-blank, and so forth. I personally feel there's a huge difference between domination and sadism, and between submission and masochism, but a lot of people use them interchangeably. Other than not wanting to play with them, it doesn't bother me at all - I'm not involved with them, so I don't get any say. When people have tried to argue with me that I must be submissive, or whatever, and I didn't identify with the label or their reasoning, I got rather annoyed and creeped out. They don't know me better than I do, they don't have any right to determine *my* identity. The same word can have different meanings - heck, even contradictory meanings at times! For example, "strike" can mean both hit and miss. The English language is really odd that way. Generally, people can sort things out from the context. If someone is unhappy or in an abusive relationship, having a different relationship label won't change anything. When we speak of "submission" here, we don't mean that their mouth is slightly foamy and their tail is swinging, like it does in Dressage. Tensing up and grinding their teeth doesn't automatically mean that they aren't submitting, just that perhaps they are struggling a bit.

Well said. :)

The OP was looking for reasons and views concerning the word having such a negative connotation.

These reasons are not just limited to the BDSM sub-culture, the views are not limited either. In fact people who come into BDSM come from the outside world bringing those very same beliefs and views with them. Also we are part of the same vanilla culture too, it influences our views and beliefs.

How the word is typically used in day to day life, the context and it's applications. How it's used in the BDSM sub-culture and it's context and applications.

In terms of me being a "white knight", I'm not certain what I would champion fully here. I could set up a .com domain name. Use it to Endorse "Happy Doormat Submissives" go into detail about how much they ain't like the Unhappy Doormats in life. I could perhaps, take the route of fusing things together in a workable fashion. Where both CoExist. Some people really got me to thinking about Motivation in this thread. On the other Hand, I could flip over to the other extreme and just Admonish and Abore it's use altogther.

Fuck, Being the White Knight that I am, what three stances should I take? Pondering Ironic Musing and Paradox's... Pehaps, I'll pull out a 6 sided dice and roll it (1-2) (3-4) (5-6) to figure out what battle to fight.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 3/1/2010 8:21:17 PM >

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(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 7:40:53 PM

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Why not let them use it if they want to, but not encourage them to do so?

Actually, some of the people who are currently healthy and happy doormats have said they have had some problems with it in past relationships. I think that being self-aware of our weaknesses and our tendencies *helps* us to manage them, and to hopefully channel them in more positive directions.

Oh, and the dice talk reminded me of this: http://xkcd.com/708/

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 3/1/2010 7:56:05 PM >

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)

RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 7:46:53 PM

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hoping you roll 5-6 Whiplash

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Everything I needed to know about life I learned by killing smart people and eating thier brains.
Give Me your heart. Make it real. Or else forget about it.

(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 8:10:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Why not let them use it if they want to, but not encourage them to do so?

Actually, some of the people who are currently healthy and happy doormats have said they have had some problems with it in past relationships. I think that being self-aware of our weaknesses and our tendencies *helps* us to manage them, and to hopefully channel them in more positive directions.

I've sort of noticed that as well. Not always true, but seems to be more times than not the case. All about getting to "Know Thy Self" at times.

Edited - thanks for the cute dicey cartoon.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 3/1/2010 8:15:57 PM >

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to Andalusite)

RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 9:53:11 PM

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WARNING I'm going to get a little Geeky here.

quote:

Initially, this is intended to invite discussion into the reasons and views concerning the word having such a negative connotation and what each of us views as the traits indicative of someone we would label a doormat

NihilusZero,

I've attempted to cover all the possible reasons and views concerning the negative connotation, as I could humanly grasp and think about.

I felt it best to not attempt to define a doormat by specific set of traits/characteristics. In fact, I even took a post by RS and reduced it down, focused upon discipline. A very good point was made regarding motivation. Hence, the acting out the fear of displeasing or the desire to please. Perhaps it's best to refrain by describing somebody by traits but rather by their motivations and what measures of self discipline in involved.

It could injected that a D/s relation will affect the outward/inward traits of the submissive in this case. If a Doormat submissive who pleases other people out of fear, meets a Dominant partner they desire to please. The motivation is affected, where fear is replaced by desire. Depending upon the character of the Dominant partner, the relationship can evol as a healthy relationship where as healthy boundaries and Discipline is established. This would explain or could explain what a "Happy Doormat" really is. However, if the character of the Dominant in question is not good, the motivation of the submissive may revert back to pleasing out of fear instead of desire. I hope this somewhat makes sense in term of possible explaination of things.

What I'm writting about now, is my way of addressing "the traits" aspect of your OP. Motivation tends to effect and/or drive choices we make in life at times, while not always the case. My own personal belief or view, which I'm going to inject in the middle of things now. Is that we make way more conscious and unconsious decisions on a daily basis than we give ourselves credit for. Even when it comes down to the smallest of actions or things we do, we are making a choices all the time. I also hold the personal view of belief, that us human beings use our imagination/minds in a manner to make pre-choices or decisions. While this is obvious when we schedule appointments and such, or think about what to plan or meals or places we like to go. There is still more at work, so I believe.

Again, I'm going to assert my own view and belief, that we engage in fantasy to explore ideas and concepts safely, to come to pre-choices or pre-decisions regarding things. A sort of mental mind fuck of What-If's and we test our responses, morals, ethics and thoughts. Perhaps it's our ability to establish pre-choices and combine those choices together, is what sperates us some from other animals.

What, I just wrote about was rather a ramp up to respond to your second Question of the OP, which is...

quote:

What is the difference between a doormat and a sub/slave in a relationship so trustworthy that demands made by hir D-type aren't even internally critiqued/questioned?

I'm only going to attempt to address the internally critiqued/questioned aspect of your question. the doormat/sub/slave stuff I feel is a distraction from the mental conditioning you are calling into question here.

It's my belief that one's trust in another person, affects their pre-choice/pre-decisions as well as immediate choices/decisions. These choices are made over the smallest things. Again, I assert this as my own personal view. However, this is the kind of trust that is literally mentally built based on interaction, then affects current choice and pre-choice. These is stored in memory. There are many other factors involved, I'm aware that there are. I'm attempting to give a simplist outline of a general concept/view that I myself personally have, in regards to this madness.

I will make the assertion, that our choices or decisions are stored in our human memory. To the point we no longer critique/question things so much, even the world around us, because we have built up memories of choices, that we invoke as we need when we need them. Hence why we don't put too much conscious thought in many given things. However, when we are faced with a Choice/decision to make, that we are uncertain about, we will engage in trying to critique/question things.

I will say this, and this is how I sincerely view things.

Just because a submissive/slave does not open their mouth and express that they are critiqueing/questioning something, does not mean they are not in the back of their minds, In my view this simply would be humanly impossible unless their brain is defeative in nature.

I've shared with you my own view that would explain the apparent diminishment of a sub/slave calling things into question or critiquing things. Why because, it becomes rather the same old natural routine of things that's been tried tested and true. However, should a Dominant fuck up enough times to affect the memory and choice processing of the mind. She just might be engaged in fantasy thoughts about packing up and moving out the house, or ending things. If they engage in this enough times, in a manner to make a prechoice, that if you screw up one more time, don't be suprised.

This is my own views regarding "internal critiquing/questioning". I hope this offers a sincere view that explains in part there there becomes less and less of a need for a sub/slave/anybody to critique/question things in time. Again, this is all my own personal view and opinion on the matter, which has been in part shaped from things I've read and thought about.

Be Well...

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 3/1/2010 10:51:50 PM >

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Doormats - 3/1/2010 10:23:49 PM

delicatelydirty

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I spent years being what I define as a "doormat" I did what people wanted to avoid conflict... regardless of the pain it might cause me. My reasons stemmed from years of abuse, it is easier to comply than the alternative and even with good people I carried this mentality...

I state in my profile that I am not a doormat..... because I have spent a lot of time fixing the damage that was done to me and now I can stand up for myself and not just let everyone else's needs automatically be more important than mine..... now I realise that my wants and needs are valid and should be considered even if in the end the someone elses needs over ride them sometimes .

So for me this is a term that I use more as an everyday term than in relation to my submission.

Oh and I have actually met a doormat... that was his kink, he loved being walked on...

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)

RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 1:01:53 AM

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quote:

I spent years being what I define as a "doormat" I did what people wanted to avoid conflict... regardless of the pain it might cause me. My reasons stemmed from years of abuse, it is easier to comply than the alternative and even with good people I carried this mentality...

I state in my profile that I am not a doormat..... because I have spent a lot of time fixing the damage that was done to me and now I can stand up for myself and not just let everyone else's needs automatically be more important than mine..... now I realise that my wants and needs are valid and should be considered even if in the end the someone elses needs over ride them sometimes .

So for me this is a term that I use more as an everyday term than in relation to my submission.

Oh and I have actually met a doormat... that was his kink, he loved being walked on...

Excellent post, DD! Welcome to the forums

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RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 1:11:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delicatelydirty

I spent years being what I define as a "doormat" I did what people wanted to avoid conflict... regardless of the pain it might cause me. My reasons stemmed from years of abuse, it is easier to comply than the alternative and even with good people I carried this mentality...

I state in my profile that I am not a doormat..... because I have spent a lot of time fixing the damage that was done to me and now I can stand up for myself and not just let everyone else's needs automatically be more important than mine..... now I realise that my wants and needs are valid and should be considered even if in the end the someone elses needs over ride them sometimes .

So for me this is a term that I use more as an everyday term than in relation to my submission.

Oh and I have actually met a doormat... that was his kink, he loved being walked on...

Rocking post!

(in reply to delicatelydirty)

RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 7:05:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: delicatelydirty

I spent years being what I define as a "doormat" I did what people wanted to avoid conflict... regardless of the pain it might cause me. My reasons stemmed from years of abuse, it is easier to comply than the alternative and even with good people I carried this mentality...

I state in my profile that I am not a doormat..... because I have spent a lot of time fixing the damage that was done to me and now I can stand up for myself and not just let everyone else's needs automatically be more important than mine..... now I realise that my wants and needs are valid and should be considered even if in the end the someone elses needs over ride them sometimes .

So for me this is a term that I use more as an everyday term than in relation to my submission.

Oh and I have actually met a doormat... that was his kink, he loved being walked on...

and yet you have the term in youre profile used in context to youre submission/submissive personality.

why not put something like - i have a strong sense of self, or, my emotional and physical needs are intrinsic to my submission.

im not saying rewrite youre profile at all, im just asking why you feel that a term you coined for youreself as relevant once is still relevant to you now, even ater youve left that whole mindset behind. its only when you mention doormat that people associate that word with youre profile. why not abandon that whole period in youre life by ditching the negativity of something youve worked so hard to overcome.

i see no point in the word. clearly from this thread alone it causes conflict, confusion and misunderstanding. what is clearly understood in any other dynamic as weakness is for some, here, a fully acceptable way of being, and yet the connotation is negative for so many.

doormat describes nothing. it is a nothing word, open to misuse and abuse - surely something more descriptive and personal and pertinant to you is better than a non-word that has negative connotations attached to it, both descriptively and emotionally.

... just saying, non- aggressively (adding that cos its sometimes hard to tell on here) - im just curious about this word when its pure meaning and original source came from a derrogatory mindset to denote something is weak about a person who willingly puts their needs aside for another.

vanilla meaning = pathetic
bdsm meaning = submissive

forget abuse for a minute. here we are talking about submission to another who inspires in us a desire to give our all - thats submission - when you use the term 'doormat' in context to submission you are creating a vaccum of understanding. in what sense arent you a doormat, how does that correlate with submission for you, how much submission are you prepared to give before the 'defensive anti-doormat' button starts to bleep. if i were a dominant reading that statement, those are the questions id be asking myself.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to delicatelydirty)

RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 7:38:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
My dominance in relationships is not based on "liking" it (I do, but it's not an active decision), it's based on the fact that that is how I gravitate when in a relationship. It's a personal trait. I also happen to seek out greater extremes on the control spectrum.

There is no "problem" with control in any situation save the degree of non-consensuality. The amount of a specific thing being greater does not proportionally bring it closer to the realm of "problem".

I agree that any degree of control which has been consented to is fine. Personally, I don't consider Domination to be an active decision either, except that I choose whether or not to act upon it.

On this particular site, the only available relationship designations are based in D/s or M/s. So, some people who are sadists or tops might use the Dominant label, even if they aren't especially into control. Sure, there are other BDSM personals sites, but I don't see anything wrong with them coming here and seeking a partner. A lot of people actually think that submission and masochism are the same thing, and I've run into a few of them in the past. I've had to turn down people as potential playpartners or relationship partners over it - it's extremely unnerving being told how beautifully I was submitting when I was just bottoming. On the flip side, there are lots of service-submissive men who wanted me to call them their slave, and to call me Mistress, without having any deeper relationship than that. Mere obedience (good as it can be) isn't enough for me to take on someone as my submissive. I need to feel that vulnerability, to be able to actually exert control. I don't refer to my female submissive playpartner as *my* submissive, even though she does submit to me during play, because I *don't* exert control of her at other times.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 7:40:34 AM

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quote:

It's a personal trait.

Is dominance a personal trait. Isn't it only working when others allow it..or accept it?
Ofcourse we can behave dominant..but are we dominant then?

< Message edited by Justme696 -- 3/2/2010 7:41:17 AM >

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RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 7:50:49 AM

osf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

It's a personal trait.

Is dominance a personal trait. Isn't it only working when others allow it..or accept it?
Ofcourse we can behave dominant..but are we dominant then?

I tried dominating a rock once, it's easy as long as you don't expect too much.

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RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 7:53:23 AM

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lol
but the relation is rock solid

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RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 8:19:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

Remember if you suffer from being an unHappy Doormat in life, we won't talk about it because it will upset those Happy doormats. Let's not upset the Happy Doormats by reminding them that there are truely unhappy Doormats. It would be a breach of their beliefs and personal understanding.

Sarcasim applied as needed in above statement. Please this is just the internet, don't take anything seriously.

I know you were playing around when you wrote this, but it hit on something for me that's been bothering me about this whole thread. You are right that in society a doormat personality is a negative thing. It takes alot to look closely enough at yourself to say... I'm a doormat. It takes alot to learn how to live with it, and it takes alot to figure out how that actually fits nicely with your overall place in life if you are a slave. I have no argument that there are many people who are doormats in certain relationships, or to the world at large, and are miserable. What seems to have been said again and again here, is that if you are happy then you can't be a doormat. If you aren't in an anbusive relationship you can't be a doormat. I don't understand why it can't be accepted that I figured this out about myself, recognized it and figured out how to live with it.

We have brains, we just have to push ourselves reallllly hard to say what we think or to tell someone no. Can we prioritize, yes. Why? Because you have an excuse... I can't pick you up from work because I have to pick so and so up from the airport. (No one can get mad at you for saying no in that situation because no one can be in two places at once)

Ack. I have totally stayed out of this because i am soooo totalllyyyyyy nooooot comfortable chiming in on anything remotely heated! However, I went against my grain because I saw a way to sort of sum up what those of us who identify as a doormat are objecting to in this thread. You don't have to be miserable to be a doormat. You don't have to currently be getting the shit kicked out of you in a bad way, to be a doormat. It's come down to.... you are happy therefor you are not a doormat... which seems silly.

Personally I don't have a stake in being labelled as a doormat by anyone, i know what i am, and i'm the one who has to work with it, but don't tell me that because i found a way to deal with it and make it an asset to my Master, that you (general sense) know what i am or am not. Self awareness is a good thing.

Oh and Whiplash (how do i keep winding up noting something to you??) I hope you realize I was just using your post to sort of jump off of.

~s

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)

RE: Doormats - 3/2/2010 8:58:45 AM

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Doormat was originally used to describe ANY woman who obeyed ANY Man for ANY reason. The woman's libbers in the 70's were trying to convince women to be independent of Men by taking their fight into the marriage. They accomplished thier mission looking at all the little girls having grown up without fathers.

Any one old enough can remember the "battle of the sexes"? the term doormat came out of that battle to counter the term Henpecked.

Henpecked. That was a popular term BEFORE the battle of the sexes. It describes a Man who obeys thier Wife. There was a lot of henpecking going on in the 50's and 60's. And is still raging in the vanilla world.

When I was a kid in the 60's single parent homes were very rare. Now the opposite is true. Thanks libbers for convincing women they dont need no dispicable man telling them what to do.

Maybe We should start comparing Male submissives who obey thier Mistress to henpecked?

(edit: The last line is sarcasm. I dont really want to do that. k?)

< Message edited by Lorenzo19 -- 3/2/2010 9:01:16 AM >

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Everything I needed to know about life I learned by killing smart people and eating thier brains.
Give Me your heart. Make it real. Or else forget about it.

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RE: Doormats - 3/3/2010 2:58:39 AM

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Here's something interesting to take into consideration..

metaphorically speaking

Check it out, and mull it over in regards to the Doormat Debate.

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Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to NihilusZero)

RE: Doormats - 3/3/2010 8:09:29 AM

osf

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Why don't we ask the doormat concerned if she considers herself a doormat?

_____________________________

all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)

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