RE: The terrorist, what creates it ?

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 1:29:02 PM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

When do human rights out weigh religious rights and traditions with you…Or do they?

His example was of a property rights. How did you turn that into a human rights vs. religious rights question?

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 1:35:20 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

When do human rights out weigh religious rights and traditions with you…Or do they?

His example was of a property rights. How did you turn that into a human rights vs. religious rights question?

We are not in Afghanistan for property rights…Don’t you agree?

Butch

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 1:38:59 PM

Termyn8or

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"We are not in Afghanistan for property rights…Don’t you agree"

I don't. If not for their location they would be as peacful as Antarctica.

T

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 1:39:16 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

When do human rights out weigh religious rights and traditions with you…Or do they?

His example was of a property rights. How did you turn that into a human rights vs. religious rights question?

Because Butch is operating on that neo-conservative premise over there and neo-liberal premise over here......which is underpinned by the idea that the Western nations are virtuous and as such hold a moral obligation to go marching round the world on missionary duty. I say neo but I suppose it isn't so new as we've been here before with Christian missionary business (not all mind you - the Church of England was vociferous in its condemnation of the invasion of Iraq). But Butch and Tony Blair are certainly two of a kind......with Blair's: "from the mountains of Afghanistan to the hills of etc etc....these people are our cause too". Problem being that Blair didn't give the locals a chance to respong before saving them....and I'll take a wild stab in the dark and say that the locals would have said something like: "hang on a minute here......we don't want to be your cause....you lunatics.....get your own house in order!"

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 1:45:33 PM

Termyn8or

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Wasn't it once considered that the Roman empire was the entire world, but a bunch of it just hadn't been taken yet ?

T

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 1:47:47 PM

kdsub

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I'm sorry you took my post in the wrong way... I did not mean it as a dig at you at all… I meant it as a serious question. I ...like you believe in staying out of other nations business...but is there a point with you when your morals would require you to act despite reluctance?

As a fair minded human I have struggled with this question myself. Don’t you think it is a valid one?

Butch

ps.. you need to read more of my posts... I manage to piss off just as many conservatives as liberals... I am certainly not a neo conservative...lol.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/8/2010 1:49:40 PM >

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 1:52:17 PM

Termyn8or

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Butch, talk about preaching to the choir. Recently, by witholding judgement, I found that certain allegations were incorrect. I believe, as was the spirit of the law in this country, that a wrongful accusation or conviction is more a travesty than letting a murderer go free.

T

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 2:00:01 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Wasn't it once considered that the Roman empire was the entire world, but a bunch of it just hadn't been taken yet ?

T

Not quite: there were a fair unoccupied territories beyond Rome's boundaries that everybody with half an education knew existed, and there were a lot of smartarses who knew that there was even more stuff beyond that. The Eastern empire (I think before the collapse really got going, though it's a while since I read Gibbon) opened trade routes with China for silk, to pick one example.

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 2:02:13 PM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I meant it as a serious question. I ...like you believe in staying out of other nations business...but is there a point with you when your morals would require you to act despite reluctance?

As a fair minded human I have struggled with this question myself. Don’t you think it is a valid one?

It is a valid question, but I don't think it's relevant to this discussion, which started out about terrorism. Northern Gent made some points about how people naturally respond to having their home(lands) taken over by strangers. The point there had less to do with why the strangers showed up and more to do with the predictable near-universal human reaction of "get the fuck outta my home." I also think it's absurd to suggest that the US invasion of Afghanistan was about human rights vs. religious rights. Certainly not the human rights of Afghani women, as your list of bad deeds would suggest.

A terrorist organization operating under the protection of the Taliban blew the shit out of some famous american buildings, killed a bunch of americans, and scared the shit out of hundreds of millions more. The US invaded Afghanistan with a simple "do not fuck with us" message and the intent to kick some AQ ass. Everything else was window dressing.

As for the question of morals compelling action, I find that a cold-eyed assessment of one's ability to affect the desired change usually renders the question moot. And I'm a pretty aspirational person in general.

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 2:03:03 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm sorry you took my post in the wrong way... I did not mean it as a dig at you at all… I meant it as a serious question. I ...like you believe in staying out of other nations business...but is there a point with you when your morals would require you to act despite reluctance?

As a fair minded human I have struggled with this question myself. Don’t you think it is a valid one?

Butch

ps.. you need to read more of my posts... I manage to piss off just as many conservatives as liberals... I am certainly not a neo conservative...lol.

Yes Butch - I do think it's a valid question - though the problem is one of: "fair minded human". Who is the judge and jury in this matter - and appointed by whom?

Those at the forefront of revolutions believe they are virtuous and can set people free. Before long they are lopping heads off left right and centre. Where you take power through coercion - then you'll need to use force to retain that power.

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 2:11:23 PM

DarlingSavage

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It seems in our western ways we are now a target for the terrorist, now more so than ever before, why ?

Why is it we are a target ?

What have we done to become a target ?

How can we stop it ?

Y'all were a target when I was there, London. Seems like every other day there was a bomb threat somewhere with buildings cordoned off. So, this isn't new. Why are y'all such targets for terrorism? What are y'all doing so wrong? I think people are still pissed off over all that imperialism and colonizing y'all have done over the centuries. It's just British karma, that's all. I'm not so sure anyone actually got bombed while I was there. They were pretty good at keeping people out of the place that was about to go off. They were also pretty good at diffusing bombs before they went off. Seems to me like the bombers really didn't want to bomb anyone, they just wanted to scare people. Somebody was calling the cops and telling them where the bombs were before they went off. I lived there in 1984 for several months.

ETA: and I loved it! Would love to go back!

< Message edited by DarlingSavage -- 3/8/2010 2:12:15 PM >

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 2:14:58 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It seems in our western ways we are now a target for the terrorist, now more so than ever before, why ?

Why is it we are a target ?

What have we done to become a target ?

How can we stop it ?

Y'all were a target when I was there, London. Seems like every other day there was a bomb threat somewhere with buildings cordoned off. So, this isn't new. Why are y'all such targets for terrorism? What are y'all doing so wrong? I think people are still pissed off over all that imperialism and colonizing y'all have done over the centuries. It's just British karma, that's all. I'm not so sure anyone actually got bombed while I was there. They were pretty good at keeping people out of the place that was about to go off. They were also pretty good at diffusing bombs before they went off. Seems to me like the bombers really didn't want to bomb anyone, they just wanted to scare people. Somebody was calling the cops and telling them where the bombs were before they went off. I lived there in 1984 for several months.

And in the case of the IRA.....

Well at some point the Irish were going to get pissed off and do something about it.....

And they couldn't compete with the British Army so fighting with tanks/planes etc wasn't a viable option.....

So what tactics were left open to them?

I'm not saying people deserve to die....but 'terrorist' action is a logical outcome.....

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 2:16:58 PM

Moonhead

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The IRA were always more interested in causing property damage than killing people. Sadly, the current crop of shi'ites and wannabes who apparently haven't ever read the Koran don't share that attitude.
Still, at least that's left the Police with a clue how to deal with bombing and experience in tracking down bombers before they blow shit up. The main reason the thing in 2005 happened was because half of the Met was up in Scotland holding Blair's hand and kicking the crap out of any antiglobalisation protestors they could find instead of, you know, actually doing their fucking jobs...

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 3/8/2010 2:17:48 PM >

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 4:55:40 PM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It seems in our western ways we are now a target for the terrorist, now more so than ever before, why ?

Why is it we are a target ?

What have we done to become a target ?

How can we stop it ?

What creates the terrorist? Go there. See the place for yourself, look with eyes that actually see things rather than being enthralled by culture. Lack of education, religious intolerance bolstered by religion running the government, squalid conditions, shit loads of abject poverty and a few million square miles of sand.

We are complicit in drawing the targets on our backs as well, from historical policy to current day politics, from the average joe stumbling around doing nothing more than acting like religious types are kooks and acting like they're from a better place.

Honestly, it's hard to blame them sometimes. Just as honest, if people have to die, rather it be them than us.

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 5:01:29 PM

willbeurdaddy

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We are a target because we provide a convenient villain for a movement that has finally learned to utilize modern technology to their advantage and to resume a centuries old quest for world domination.

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 5:06:47 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

a movement that has finally learned to utilize modern technology to their advantage and to resume a centuries old quest for world domination

Christianity?

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 6:30:33 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I meant it as a serious question. I ...like you believe in staying out of other nations business...but is there a point with you when your morals would require you to act despite reluctance?

As a fair minded human I have struggled with this question myself. Don’t you think it is a valid one?

It is a valid question, but I don't think it's relevant to this discussion, which started out about terrorism. Northern Gent made some points about how people naturally respond to having their home(lands) taken over by strangers. The point there had less to do with why the strangers showed up and more to do with the predictable near-universal human reaction of "get the fuck outta my home." I also think it's absurd to suggest that the US invasion of Afghanistan was about human rights vs. religious rights. Certainly not the human rights of Afghani women, as your list of bad deeds would suggest.

A terrorist organization operating under the protection of the Taliban blew the shit out of some famous american buildings, killed a bunch of americans, and scared the shit out of hundreds of millions more. The US invaded Afghanistan with a simple "do not fuck with us" message and the intent to kick some AQ ass. Everything else was window dressing.

As for the question of morals compelling action, I find that a cold-eyed assessment of one's ability to affect the desired change usually renders the question moot. And I'm a pretty aspirational person in general.

No you misunderstand me... we had valid reasons to go into Afghanistan...I don't believe we did in Iraq...If Afghanistan had given up terrorist or at least not provide haven to them then we would not have invaded.

BUT we are there now... can we in all conscious allow murder, mutilation, and discrimination of women when we are responsible?

This is the big question I struggle with. I think it is of the utmost importance and there are no easy answers.

Butch

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 6:39:19 PM

DarlingSavage

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quote:

The IRA were always more interested in causing property damage than killing people

No, they've been pretty interested in killing people. I just saw 50 Dead Men Walking. It gave a lot of info on how they were running things over on their own turf. They were not very nice. I confess that my knowledge of the IRA is limited to films. History isn't really my area of expertise.

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 6:39:31 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm sorry you took my post in the wrong way... I did not mean it as a dig at you at all… I meant it as a serious question. I ...like you believe in staying out of other nations business...but is there a point with you when your morals would require you to act despite reluctance?

As a fair minded human I have struggled with this question myself. Don’t you think it is a valid one?

Butch

ps.. you need to read more of my posts... I manage to piss off just as many conservatives as liberals... I am certainly not a neo conservative...lol.

Yes Butch - I do think it's a valid question - though the problem is one of: "fair minded human". Who is the judge and jury in this matter - and appointed by whom?

Those at the forefront of revolutions believe they are virtuous and can set people free. Before long they are lopping heads off left right and centre. Where you take power through coercion - then you'll need to use force to retain that power.

Believe me I do understand and agree with what you are saying to a point...but we are there now right or wrong... If you were in charge could you turn a blind eye? I would struggle with that answer and try to remain as neutral as I could be… BUT… I would not allow the violation of basic human rights.

When we leave, which I hope is soon, I expect Afghanistan to govern in any way they deem appropriate.

Butch

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RE: The terrorist, what creates it ? - 3/8/2010 9:22:24 PM

AnimusRex

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I think Tim nailed it pretty simply-

Terrorism is a tactic, and when done well, works.

If America was a tiny undeveloped country, and Al-Quaida had a fleet of 600 ships, hundreds of bombers and fighters, and a couple million men in uniform, they would invade, under the pretext of "liberating" us from backward Christianity and oversexualization of women, and we would respond with hit-and-run tactics and car bombs (Wolveriiiiines!!!).

Terrorism is what you do when you are faced with overwhelming odds, because its the only thing you CAN do.

Google "Fawkes, Guy" or "Irgun, Menachem Begin"

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