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Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 2:46:32 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline 		The following transpired in another thread, but felt it best suited for a thread of its own.  Any "Sadists" care to share their views???

quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

A masochist IMO would be no use to a real sadist... A sadist by definition is one who enjoys inflicting pain (in reality, upon the unsuspecting OR the unwilling) and therefore a masochist is one who would take mild or even more enjoyment out of pain (for their own sacrificial/unknown deeds). The sadist, a true one (not play) would not fully enjoy the masochist in this case.



1)  COMMENTARY:

As to the above quote, I must say... I find that quite thought provoking.  Yes, I suppose a Sadist (at their core level) would much prefer (and enjoy) inflicting pain, torment, and torture upon the unwilling (a non-masso) rather than the willing (a  masso), as the Sadist would KNOW the masso would be relishing with great anticipation/joy the next strike, where the non-masso would be fearful... hating every second of it.

The challenges, as I'd see them, would be as follows:

a)  Under the guise of this dynamic (and in a LEGAL sense), if one is "unwilling", then consent has NOT been given.

b)  When consent HAS been given, then the only CONSENSUAL/LEGAL pairing is one of a Sadist and massochist (because only a masso would give their consent); leaving the Sadist forever unfulfilled, and left to only "playing" the Sadist.

This would actually make a great thread on its own... you should start it.


2)  QUESTIONS: 

a)  If, as a masso, one's goal is "misery", then finding the most super-duper, evil, bastard of a Sadist that ever walked the earth would only result in the masso's HAPPINESS and contradicting their goal of "misery", yes/no? 

b)  As a masso, wouldn't your pairing with said super-duper, evil, bastard of a Sadist that ever walked the earth  still result in the Sadist being unfulfilled and left to playing the role of Sadist, because YOU (as a masso) would ENJOY every bit of torment and torture?

Seems like a "no win" scenario for either of you, as the Sadist can't legally torture the unwilling/non-consenting, and the masso (if truly desiring misery) is best left to NEVER FINDING a truly evil Sadist; ensuring a life of unfulfilled misery for the masso... yes/no???



----------

One reply given was as follows... again, would like to hear what those who are "Sadists" would say?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

1)  COMMENTARY:

As to the above quote, I must say... I find that quite thought provoking.  Yes, I suppose a Sadist (at their core level) would much prefer (and enjoy) inflicting pain, torment, and torture upon the unwilling (a non-masso) rather than the willing (a  masso), as the Sadist would KNOW the masso would be relishing with great anticipation/joy the next strike, where the non-masso would be fearful... hating every second of it.


It isn't a matter of the sadist preferring to torment and torture the unwilling. From the analytical point of view, a sadist derives their pleasure from the torment and torture itself. It makes no difference to them whether the person being tormented or tortures enjoys it or not. For some sadists, they don't even need to be the one delivering the torment or torture, although that would certainly enhance the enjoyment.

Likewise for the masochist. Their pleasure is derived from the torment and torture they receive (or see others receive).


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
The challenges, as I'd see them, would be as follows:

a)  Under the guise of this dynamic (and in a LEGAL sense), if one is "unwilling", then consent has NOT been given.

b)  When consent HAS been given, then the only CONSENSUAL/LEGAL pairing is one of a Sadist and massochist (because only a masso would give their consent); leaving the Sadist forever unfulfilled, and left to only "playing" the Sadist.



When the sadist steps into torturing and tormenting the "unwilling," it isn't simply the legal ramifications we all recognize as abuse. A sadist can find release within the realms of BDSM style relationships by finding a consenting partner. As I said earlier, the sadist's pleasure comes from the act itself, not the knowledge that the "receiver" is unwilling. If a sadist were to start inflicting torment and torture on the unwilling, it would be time for psychological intervention, something that would naturally result from the legal ramifications that they caused.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

2)  QUESTIONS: 

a)  If, as a masso, one's goal is "misery", then finding the most super-duper, evil, bastard of a Sadist that ever walked the earth would only result in the masso's HAPPINESS and contradicting their goal of "misery", yes/no? 

b)  As a masso, wouldn't your pairing with said super-duper, evil, bastard of a Sadist that ever walked the earth  still result in the Sadist being unfulfilled and left to playing the role of Sadist, because YOU (as a masso) would ENJOY every bit of torment and torture?

Seems like a "no win" scenario for either of you, as the Sadist can't legally torture the unwilling/non-consenting, and the masso (if truly desiring misery) is best left to NEVER FINDING a truly evil Sadist; ensuring a life of unfulfilled misery for the masso... yes/no???






If the first part were true (which it isn't) then your second part would of course also be true. It would also support the concept that the "bottom" is always the one in control of the "top," which is another extremely touchy subject to be sure.

The pairing of a sadist with a masochist, in a sense, is a healthy relationship.

What would be really terrific would be if LadyPact chimed in on this one. As an actual sadist, she would be best able to shed some light on the subject.

I daresay though, that even as a "true" sadist and not one who is just "playing" at being one, I don't think she has an issue with clip smiling (unless it is inappropriate at the time).


< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 3/14/2010 2:52:07 PM >
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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 3:02:44 PM   
naughtysubK


Posts: 62
Joined: 5/2/2004
Status: offline 		not a sadist, but somehat of a masochist. and submissive.

I have never been a big fan of canes, but my Dominant LOVES to use the cane on me. I told him recently that I still don't love the cane, but I endure it because I know how much he enjoys caning me. He was quite delighted by this statement.

Don't know whether the sadist in him liked hearing that I really don't take physical pleasure in a caning, or if it was the Dominant in him that was happy that I endure something I don't really like in order to please him. Or a little of both.

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 3:08:36 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I responded in the other thread a bit, but I think you brought up some really interesting aspects. For me, "blissful misery" suggests being in that state of mind where I love hating something. I tend to generally divide things loosely into "good pain" (physically feels good) and "bad pain" (just plain hurts). Sometimes, I tolerate "bad pain" because I must, at the doctor's office, or if I accidentally hurt myself, or I'm in a martial arts class, and sometimes I can actively enjoy toughing it out, or feeling that I am bringing pleasure to my Master by enduring it for him. I haven't had the last reaction when I didn't feel submissive toward the person inflicting the pain. Those conflicting feelings, being pulled in two directions at once, can be hot as all get out.

I am also a sadist, but for me, it's less the specific acts or the specific toy/tool than the reactions I get from the other person. I do enjoy it when they are genuinely hurting, crying, whimpering, moaning, flinching, and so forth, but it can be a lot of fun to get them blissed out as well. Usually I blend the two to find the balance I want, where it's *almost* more than my submissive playpartner can endure. Again, her pain reactions aren't consistent across the board - some things, she loves and can take a lot of, whereas moving to a more sensitive spot, or switching to something else, makes her writhe in pain and the tears come.

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 3:10:24 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		My Sir is a sadist - and he likes to beat women. He doesn't have an issue with his "beaten" getting pleasure with what he does, since in the end he is a physical sadist, not a psychological one. In fact he likes his women to have pleasure as reward for taking what he dishes out.

Its kind of like that old joke - the masochist begs to be beaten, the sadist says no!

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 3:18:17 PM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		I'd describe myself as a masochist, but that doesn't mean I love pain for the sake of it...if that makes sense!

For me, it's the sexual response to pain that works for me. Pain just hurts - no way around it. But it also gets me wet. And I go off to subspace, which is lovely. In fact, I can't orgasm without some pain being involved.

So when I'm with a sadist, my reactions should be pretty much what he's looking for. I'll beg him to stop, I'll cry, moan, whimper and all that good stuff and I will absolutely mean it at that moment, but I'll also be massively sexually aroused. And later on I will touch the welts and bruises, and feel the ache, and be aroused all over again

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 3:40:22 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		If someone has a moment, would they mind directing Me to the original thread?  Thank you.

Please understand that I am currently in a state where the endorphins are still buzzing about My brain.  If what I have to say makes no sense, just ask.  I'll be happy to try to make it understandable.

In My personal opinion, there are things to be said on both sides of the argument.  However, Me personally, I pair better with masochists.  I can go to better depths of My sadism and I find this to be true in cases of long term dynamics or play partners.  There's absolutely something to be said for knowing someone well.

I think an important point to make is that a masochist doesn't necessarily like every kind of play or every single toy.  Just this weekend, we found that clip isn't exactly fond of the ugly stick.  This made the ugly stick a perfect means to the end of getting that particular reaction from him.  Not that I only want that during play time.  I want the smiles mixed in, too.  Yet, what good sadist doesn't want all different reactions to bring their sub/bottom to a whimpering, trembling pile of goo who, for whatever reason, has been reduced to the quivering, compliant, begging to please state that you know they can obtain?

Just like in submission, clip, as a masochist, knows he's not going to like everything that happens during a scene.  The important thing is that I like what happens during play.  Should I be in the mood for him to suffer, that's what is going to happen.  Yes, the mood might strike Me to whack him five extra times with the ugly stick because it's getting Me wet.  Hell, it's a great encouragement opportunity for him to come up with something that he might like better, such as bringing Me to an orgasm, rather than to thank Mistress for another five strokes.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 3:48:24 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
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Status: offline 		Here ya go LP: http://www.collarchat.com/m_3113902/tm.htm

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 3:59:54 PM   
osf


Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
Status: offline 		go far enough and even a maso will cry

i love it when i hear a maso say they can take anything

i have a thick leather work belt that says they can't

< Message edited by osf -- 3/14/2010 4:00:35 PM >

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 4:06:04 PM   
Fitznicely


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
As to the above quote, I must say... I find that quite thought provoking.  Yes, I suppose a Sadist (at their core level) would much prefer (and enjoy) inflicting pain, torment, and torture upon the unwilling (a non-masso) rather than the willing (a  masso), as the Sadist would KNOW the masso would be relishing with great anticipation/joy the next strike, where the non-masso would be fearful... hating every second of it.


Speaking personally, I much prefer a "victim" who reacts to the pain I inflict. I've never had an interest in playing with a masso who relishes the pain and takes pride in however many times they can be hit, or how much blood is flowing, or whatever.

What I enjoy, as I say, is the reaction, the interaction, the flinch, tears, begging, etc, but I also need to know, for my own fulfilment, that it's hurting...better yet, FUCKING hurting.

quote:



a)  Under the guise of this dynamic (and in a LEGAL sense), if one is "unwilling", then consent has NOT been given.


I don't agree with this at all. In the course of life, we all have to do things we're unwilling to do. Pay taxes, work for a living, bury a relative, end a relationship. We don't want to do these things, but we consent to them happening, whether through lack of choice, or through a sense of duty. Willingness, or the lack thereof doesn't naturally imply consent or lack thereof.



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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 4:31:10 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Ethical Sadism is Significantly different than Unethical Sadism in my view. I see huge distinctions between the two even if those distinctions at the finer points become rather subjective from person to person.

Second point, I have never had trouble taking individuals that consider themself masocistic and bring them to states of sensation that give me pleasure for the pain I percieve that I am causing them. It's been my experience that no one masocist enjoys all the pain they recieve. Hell, I even had my girls beg to stop having orgasms which turned from a rather pleasurable feeling to a painful one for them in the scene. I guess it's truth that too much of a good thing is bad!

So in short... I find the comment to be rather unfounded by my experiences of playing with over a dozen individuals that consider themself masocistic. Then of course, maybe they where not "Real" masocists those lying bastards and bitchs!



editted to add..... btw.. I find non-masocists that want to experience pain to be rather fun to play... but for me it is rather sensual as opposed to significant SM intensity. I find they have less pain tolerance and as such... I just don't have to work as hard to get them to point to where they are begging for it to stop. Masocists tend to have a higher pain threshold (not all of course) and well that requires alot more from me to get them to that edge that I enjoy. Regardless... both have great pleasures... kinds like having Dark Chocolate or Milk Chocolate.... IT"S CHOCOLATE!!!!! IT"S ALWAYS GOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 3/14/2010 4:37:06 PM >

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 4:37:59 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Here ya go LP: http://www.collarchat.com/m_3113902/tm.htm

Thank you, Anda.  Very kind of you.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 5:03:10 PM   
heartfeltsub


Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		i am remembering what Lucky Albatross used to say on threads like this, that a service submissive who is not a masochist, but gets pleasure from serving his/her Master/Dominant is an excellent match for a Sadist. They don't enjoy the pain, but do get some of their needs to serve met in submitting to pain that they don't like in service to another.



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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 5:22:25 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The challenges, as I'd see them, would be as follows:

a) Under the guise of this dynamic (and in a LEGAL sense), if one is "unwilling", then consent has NOT been given.


Simple semantics here. Change "unwilling" to "reluctant" and not only do you have a better definition of the situation in many fetish dynamics but it all fits together. One can easily consent to something that they are reluctant to do or to have done to them.

Beyond that I do agree the basic premise of the poster you quoted or at least it is certainly how I feel. I don't enjoy doing things that my submissive enjoys nearly as much as I do those things that she hates. I try things out and add those things to my short list that she despises. It's still a consensual thing but it's about the closest you can get to the real thing.


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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 5:27:39 PM   
SassySarijane


Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline 		From the masochistic side, I can tell you that my sadist friends who top me derive great enjoyment from working to find my limits and find what I don't like. I can take a lot which pleases them as they can go longer, do more and be rougher with me in play; and they love the work involved in finding those things and areas that I do not like or am not able to take much of or on.

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 5:40:58 PM   
MissBeautiful2U


Posts: 98
Joined: 12/5/2008
Status: offline 		Fast reply.

I consider myself a sadist because I enjoy inflicting pain, but I want the person I am playing with to enjoy it on some level.  I think most people have some degree of sadist or masochist in them, if you are going to split hairs.  A girl who likes a light hand spanking still likes that spanking.  I want someone whose masochistic urges are in the range of my sadistic urges. 

I've never heard that to be a sadist you should want to inflict the pain on an unknowing or unwilling partner.  That thought offends my sense of responsibility.  I will say someone who falls high on masochistic chart is not as fun for me to play with because it takes a lot to get a pain response out of them.  Believe me though, I have gotten a pain reaction out of someone I was playing with and while they react to the pain, later they tell me they enjoyed it.  It is part of the overall scene we are engaged in. 

So if your definition of a masochist is someone who craves pain even though it hurts at the time and reacts to it, that is indeed what I want!  :)

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 5:51:02 PM   
osf


Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
Status: offline 		I'm not a true sadist, so I just hit harder to make up for it

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all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 5:51:38 PM   
ownedbyPF


Posts: 126
Joined: 2/18/2010
Status: offline 		How funny... My Master and I were just talking about something similar the other night. I'm not a maso. I don't enjoy pain. I think I have found my way into subspace twice. My Master is a sadist. Nothing gets him hotter than making me scream in agony and cry hysterically. There isn't a thought really of "what I can take." He goes until he's decided he is done.

As I said, not a maso, no sub space. I feel every bit of aganozing torment. Yet, I need it. I desperately need him to take me, use me, and beat me without any regard for my "enjoyment", or for me. THAT makes me wet and hot! However, honestly, when it's happening, I don't even realize I'm wet. I don't realize it until he stops for a few minutes and fingers me or some such thing and suddenly I'm like... omg... I'm crazy wet!

When he starts I'm scared, when he's in the midst I'm desperate for it stop, when it stops I can't wait for him to do it again. I need it, and crave it, and love it, and hate it all at the same time. I need to be that stripped down. I need to suffer that torment for him. I need to scream until I'm hoarse because he revels in it.

So when I read about masochists, and subspace etc I sometimes wonder how I fit into all of this since I don't come across very many people like me who hate it with all they are and yet couldn't bear anything else.

I guess that doesn't answer much of your question, but it's what I've got, and I can tell you that my Master, who is all frickin sadist, finds it entirely to his liking.
~s


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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 5:53:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

again, would like to hear what those who are "Sadists" would say?


The moment I get lost in other people's definition of what I should be, I stop being myself.

- LA

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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 6:01:15 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

The challenges, as I'd see them, would be as follows:

a) Under the guise of this dynamic (and in a LEGAL sense), if one is "unwilling", then consent has NOT been given.


Simple semantics here. Change "unwilling" to "reluctant" and not only do you have a better definition of the situation in many fetish dynamics but it all fits together. One can easily consent to something that they are reluctant to do or to have done to them.



Now THAT is an interesting twist!  Hmmm... "reluctant".



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RE: Calling All SADISTS ! ! ! - 3/14/2010 6:11:03 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

The challenges, as I'd see them, would be as follows:

a) Under the guise of this dynamic (and in a LEGAL sense), if one is "unwilling", then consent has NOT been given.


Simple semantics here. Change "unwilling" to "reluctant" and not only do you have a better definition of the situation in many fetish dynamics but it all fits together. One can easily consent to something that they are reluctant to do or to have done to them.



Now THAT is an interesting twist!  Hmmm... "reluctant".




I would agree with this.

I've discussed this a few times, specifically in two threads which you might enjoy reading:



- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/14/2010 7:06:53 PM >

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