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Is Courtship Really Dead? - 3/31/2006 4:46:08 PM

Posts: 53
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: Detroit metro
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I've said this in another place; let's see how it works over here...
******************
Hello. My name is Jen and I'm a non-apologetic, completely unreformed romantic.

This transcends even a prospective submissive treating me like a real person when we first begin to talk, this is after we decide to start testing that water, dipping a toe, so to speak, in the babbling brook of friend-maybe-more.

I want to be courted; is that so wrong? /harveyfiersteinoff

Before anyone overreacts and thinks I mean flowers, poetry and candy (allergies, acerbic tastes, diet), that's not what I meant. I mean affection, that edge of eagerness that says 'I've been SO looking forward to seeing/talking/meeting you!' that's pleasant to hear. Other words might be kindness, consideration. Why can't such things happen? I don't want to and I am not going to make all the moves forward. That is offensive to my delicate sensibilities.

I want to be pursued. I want the man to show me he's pursing ME, not some fanciful vision of domme-ness that any nameless, faceless woman could fulfill. I want to be feel cherished in some indefinable way. I want to feel appreciated. Desired.

To forestall any "Haven't we outgrown those antiquated points of view?" the response is, obviously, NO, not all of us have. I'm not one of the boys and I don't plan to be treated like one. Neither am I a "womyn". While I may be more than adequate to hold my own in a belching contest (thank you, diet DP), I don't do it at the Opera (except during slow bits of Die Walküre). Open my door; ask me what I want to drink, pick up my pocketbook if I drop it. This isn't submission; this is courtesy. This is, IMO, being a gentleman.

Now, I freely admit that not every dominant woman wants someone that necessarily fits my criteria, but not every submissive male (or female) knows that immediately. Maybe it's me; maybe I put off a vibe that's just wrong for communicating my expectations.

Tell me, what would you expect to hear from a domme in these early, tentative stages? How should the subject be broached?

Dommes, what do you find prevalent during the early stages? Is that something you like?

I look forward to hearing your opinions.

Jeni

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 3/31/2006 5:01:21 PM

Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
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This may sound kind of strange, but I'll fire it by anyway.

I am a strong believer in courtship, or the chivalrous behavior as you have described here. But part of this type of behavioral mannerism construct is quite often just a part of a person rather than something someone puts forth as part of his being. When I've dated, I'll often hear from a woman how polite, chivalrous and pleasant I am to be around. Some of us HAVE actually gone through etiquette training during our college years (I always found it amazing West Point taught us etiquette through formal training right from the beginning), so that's how we act naturally. But part of such training demands we don't publicize that as part of our contacts, or for the sake of places like this, our profiles.

I've always found it's more of a problem when the man continously brings up courtship behavioralism as part of the discussion, rather than just does what is right and expected in higher social circles.

Anyway, I may not be communicating this right, but I'll just leave it at that. I've been writing all day long, trying to finish my latest novel, and sometimes my communication skills on message boards turn to gibberish after nonstop hours and hours of writing.

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 3/31/2006 5:20:45 PM

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i have a question to add to yours.

i am submissive. why don't Masters court a slave? i truly love the hunt and chase. the feeling that the man is truly interested and desires me. (i also admit to being a flower junkie, but what the heck!)

the way i look at it, is that if he is not man enough to pursue me and let me know he is interested then he is not Dominant enough for my tastes. i REALLY hate being the one to pursue a man. i want him to be in charge.

i don't know how this equates with you being a Domme because i must admit that my perspective is vastly different. i can compromise though and just say what happened to all the old-time virtues of a man romancing a woman?

i love the little things too, like a phone call saying he is thinking of me or an email. is this something that is considered too vanilla or beneath a man who considers himself kinky? i do not know.

i find that even online, that it is the persistent man that gets my attention. if i am interested, i encourage him. if i am not interested, i tell him right up front. but then it seems like after 2 or 3 emails .... the initial interest of the man is just gone if i don't respond immediately -- like that very day. (short attention span???)

i TOTALLY agree with you. i want to feel cherished, desired, adored. i think that these are female qualities. it is what we are looking for from the male species. when the male 'hunts' us ... we feel that we are desired. often though after a date or two, he then takes us for granted.

i found online here that the Dominant males will use all this flowery speech (that sounds so incredibly fake considering that they wont have seen a picture of me yet and dont know me) and/or lots of really nice solicitous emails. then suddenly they will decide that they have captured you "I claim you in the name of #####" and then it is as if Mr Hyde has come out of hiding. i find all of these antics so incredibly FAKE.

i am a slave at heart. but i am still a woman. i live on the planet earth. i wish to find someone i can serve and adore with all my heart but please, this doesnt make me a non-being. is this why Dominants/Masters cannot keep their slaves? they forget that she is really a woman?

... sigh .... stepping down off of soapbox now....

_____________________________

What is a slut: 1. pleasure enthusiast; 2. a wanton individual; 3. a saucy girl

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 3/31/2006 6:14:36 PM

Posts: 53
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: Detroit metro
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When I was a slave, and I was one for over 20 years (so I come with a set of 'this is how's it's done' already), I was the pursuer of All Things Dominant. It's the way I was taught things were done.

I do freely admit, however, that a big part of my desire in what I've written is that atavastic need to be treated like a fragile Lady. Blame it on my Virginia mama and my Texas upbringing. I still love it and wouldn't give a thing for it.

It's just as much a need for me as listening to the sound of heavy panting while putting clamps on a nice, hard cock.

But I digress.....

(in reply to primeslave)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 3/31/2006 6:59:37 PM

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Joined: 2/9/2006
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I love courtship with all the flowers, delicious dinners and time spent just holding hands and talking away the hours. I'm a Domme but I'm also very much the romantic. Whether its me chasing him or him chasing me, either way works for me

I think the talking away the hours is the most appealing thing about courtship. When you just sit there and talk and then suddenly realise you've done only that for hours, where did the time go?
My current sub and I have a wonderfully romantic relationship. He opens doors for me, he pulls out my chair and slides it back in, he is a gentleman and I'd have it no other way. Yep we are in love and in lust. I'm his whip crackin' Mistress and he's my leather masked sextoy who brings me flowers and the greatest joy I've ever known.

~Lashra

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 3/31/2006 7:46:44 PM

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Preach on, sister!
I wish us all good luck :))

(in reply to Lashra)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 1:19:31 AM

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Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Southern Illinois
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Even though I am a strong, opinionated, Dominant Woman, I do enjoy being sought-after and "swept off my feet", so to speak.

Do I think courtship is dead? From my perspective, with men from my age group (18-30), yes I do. I think it has more to do with up-bringing, basic manners, and age of the male in question.

Back in the day...well...what I consider to be back in the day...courting a woman, and being a gentleman were expected. Today, in my experience, it's not. Maybe it's that most women my age don't know any better, and are settling for less?

Parents don't teach their kids these days about which fork to use when, to say "excuse me" when they break wind, or even how to interact with others in public without being a total brat.

I would expect to see those males in the 40 and up range to have more of a sense of chivalry and etiquette than those in my age group. In my experience, for the most part, males in my age group are only looking for a little slap and tickle, and don't bother with the niceties.

During the early stages of speaking with a potential match, none of those nice little things are apparent. It's all about business for them, it seems like. As if I'm a used car saleswoman, trying to sell them something.

Thankfully, I have a well-mannered, die-hard romantic, and Dominant husband that makes up for it.

Do I think it's wrong that you want romance and courtship? Absolutely not. I think if it works for you, you should not settle for less than you want and deserve. Good luck in your search!

_____________________________

"The reason the mainstream is thought of as a stream is because of it's shallowness." - George Carlin

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most..." - Ozzy Osbourne

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 2:25:39 AM

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Interesting Topic. As a Dominant male, I find also the 'courting ritual' CAN be romantic / fun. For me, this has Lots to do with honesty in the beginning. I wouldn't dream of courting a submissive in the same way I'd court a vanilla GF, that would not suit either, however if people have been up front with their tastes/inclinations (as adults should, imho) then there's an added titillation, I think. Flowers AREN'T 'just flowers' that way.. but clearly a suggestion that. "Yes, my darker side thinks you (as a person) is worth luring back to my lair..." It's a fine line, but I much prefer that to SOME of the 'lines' I've heard Doms use... If I could drag a woman back to my cave, and that's all the 'courting' required, I'm not sure I'd even be interested. For me, Sensuality (and sexuality) begins between the EARS, if it's not happening there, then it won't happen anywhere. NativeDad

_____________________________

"If you can't be good...

.... You Probably just lack Discipline."

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RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 3:08:20 AM

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Joined: 12/27/2004
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no i dont think courtship is dead at all

(in reply to NativeDad)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 3:25:03 AM

impishlilhellcat

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Joined: 3/26/2006
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I love that someone posted about this. I too love the hunt and the chase. There's something so primal and seductive about being hunted. However there is also something to be said about a Dom who takes the time to let his submissive know that she is on his mind. I myself get all giggly and goofy when I get a phone call or an email that says thinking about you babygirl or something along those lines. It makes me feel safe, protected, and cherished.

_____________________________

Anyone who says they have only one life to live must not know how to read a book - Unknown

(in reply to mantis65)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 3:46:13 AM

MsSonnetMarwood

Posts: 1898
Joined: 2/10/2005
From: Eastern Shore, Maryland
Status: offline

It may not be completely dead, but it's definately on life-support with the overhanging thread of the plug being pulled.

Listen up, boys, particularly those that can't figure out why it is that they can't seem to meet/connect wiht a Domme.

_____________________________

~Ms. Sonnet Marwood~

Deja Moo: The feeling you've heard this bull somewhere before.

(in reply to impishlilhellcat)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 4:48:51 AM

openmindedslave

Posts: 470
Joined: 2/27/2005
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Courtship is aform of seduction. It shows a Mistress than your intensity is not in your pants but oon your shoulders .It doesn't happen over night and the competion to sow your true self to a special person can be rewarding to the Mistress. The chance to surprise another at work with a picnic lunch. The ability to listen (not hear ) the thoughs and asperations of one another. The ability to trust one another with who you really are inside. My favorite ( I am corney) is the holding of hands while window shopping and getting that "little squeeze" from the other. That tells me something special has enetered my life..

Of course the otherside of courting >> The jokes she use to laught at out of curious she doesn't any longer . She dresses more casual because she is comfortable with me . She clearly lets me know what she doesn't find as apealing about me as she might have let on at first.

But for the right people, it is all worth it...

(in reply to MsSonnetMarwood)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 5:08:41 AM

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From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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I don't think courtship is dead. I courted my sub. It was fun. Remember, male subs aren't quite like other men. While they can do the whole dance attendance on someone, they'd prefer to be ordered to do it. They'd much rather YOU swept them off their feet.

I do understand you want to know they desire YOU as a person, not just a sex object. But try picking one out that you like.. asking him out, and if he seems to respond to you the way you'd like, "give him permission to court you." You've gotten into his head by making the first move- and by giving permission, you've let him know your expectations. Subs often need guidance. And that can be true from the very first. My husband would not have had a clue how to go about asking a Domme out. I made it easy for him. I called and asked. I kept asking. I now have a husband who would do literally anything for me. He lives for serving me. *smiles*

Good Hunting!

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
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(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 5:19:48 AM

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Joined: 2/18/2006
From: NH
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Jeni, I am so glad you brought this up! I don't think this is a question of Dom(me)/sub, but more of men/women. Personally, I love it when a man opens a door for me or pulls out my chair for me. I love receiving flowers or a card for no reason other than that he was thinking of me. I like knowing that the man I'm involved with cherishes me as a woman first and as a submissive second. A lot of the men I've encountered want to try to rush me into a sexual relationship. The man who will finally capture me will take his time to get to know me as a person. He will have to capture my mind first, then, my heart may follow.

< Message edited by Badkitty0810 -- 4/1/2006 5:26:04 AM >

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 9:26:39 AM

WorshippingYou1

Posts: 23
Joined: 1/21/2006
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People DO seem to have lost the art of courtship. For my part as a male sub, I consider proper courtship of my Domme to be absolutely essential. Her attention to me is something that I must EARN and She deserves that. It is interesting that so much of what a sub should just naturally do to be worth considering falls under what was called "chivalry" in days of yore...

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/1/2006 11:16:18 AM

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I agree...courtship is a big part of what I would do once I have found the deserving Domme that has caught my eye and turned on my submissive desires for her. That courtship woudl be no different then the courtship in a vanilla relationship. In my opinion, if a male sub failed to court you, then he is perhaps looking for just a play partner and not a loving caring D/s relationship. Vanilla or lifestyle, I would court in the old fashioned way. Personally, I think it is a dying art among our young. So is the whole romantic boy meets girl thing. Now it's more like " groovy, lets; get it on. Sad but true. Glad I was raised a gentleman and have strong romantic ideals.

(in reply to WorshippingYou1)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/2/2006 2:14:36 PM

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From: Detroit metro
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65

no i dont think courtship is dead at all

Great. Care to explain WHY you don't think it's dead? Jus a "no" is pretty much worthless. Are you doin anything to keep it alive?

Look forward to hearing about it.

(in reply to mantis65)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/2/2006 2:55:28 PM

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GREAT POST! Finally! I'm also a true romantic! Love the courtship. I believe that just reading the thread will open up many peoples heart to remember that we are all people - men and women whether dom/sub/slave that we all need to know we are wanted for "ourselves" and not always a possession. Yes, being owned or owning is part of the lifestyle but there is so much more to each persons soul.

Connections start in the mind and work slowly into the heart. Chivarly is dead when someone only wants a "play toy" or not looking for some sort of commitment. Some others say it's upbringing...I totally agree with littlesarbonn that it is naturally within you and should not have to "advertised". I believe that when you find yourself caring for another, those things come naturally, out of pure respect and longing to please the other.

Flsubmalecd said it perfectly and exactly what I was thinking and feeling...anyone lacking courtship as in any vanilla relationship is purely not interested in a d's relationship.

So with that, I always feel it's best to know in my heart that it's not my worth that's tested but their lack of sincerity at best. Dom's not interested in getting to know "me" with all my good points and flaws are not worthy of the gift of "me" as his sub.

This is a wonderful thread, thank you for posting it Jen! Well worth the read!

(in reply to Jeniluscious)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/2/2006 4:34:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: primeslave

i have a question to add to yours.

i am submissive. why don't Masters court a slave? i truly love the hunt and chase. the feeling that the man is truly interested and desires me. (i also admit to being a flower junkie, but what the heck!)

Why does the man, sub or dom, need to be the one doing the pursuing? Or "doing" the courting?

I say whomever is most interested should be the one "doing" the courting.

But hopefully most of us are operating from mutual interest and then why is there anything wrong with both people "doing" the courting?

Fox and I (Tom and I) each do romantic "courting" sorts of things for each other (and always have). Its a good give and take. Both people can feel great when they feel pursued, wanted, and appreciated. One-sidedness gets tiring after a while.

It can be very frustrating for "the man" to always be expected to "do" the courting. I imagine that when you combine this with Ds roles it gets confusing too.

I say do what feels right for you and try to find someone with similar ideas of romanticism to yours -- that's a better combination than just expecting one group to always behave as you may wish.

(The *you* here is generic not specific to primeslave or anyone else on this thread)

_____________________________

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TammyJo

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to primeslave)

RE: Is Courtship Really Dead? - 4/2/2006 4:48:39 PM

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i agree that both need to do the courting 'ritual' or 'dance' or whatever you would like to call it. i just happen to like well defined roles. the Man would not chase me of course unless i let him know i was interested. there has to be some encouragement i am sure.

my fondest memory and the first courtship that i was ever exposed to.... i was 16 and he was 17. we met at one of those silly things where whoever keeps their hand on the car longest wins the car. neither one of us lasted longer then 3 days. but i guess he had taken an interest in me. he came over to my house every night for TWO weeks and did the dishes for me. i finally took pity on him and we dated for an entire year. my very FIRST boyfriend and yeppers ... you guessed it, he was totally dominant. i just had no idea what all this stuff meant.

i will never forget the sight of him looking so silly standing their doing the dishes for me and me wondering why he would do that. (i was just starting to realize that a guy was actually a MALE) maybe its just me but i loved how he showed his interest. of course, once we started dating he NEVER did the dishes for me again. lol - i bet he hated doing dishes for the rest of his life!!!

courtship rituals are different for all concerned but they are important for those that are involved in them. they have so much more meaning then strip, kneel and suck (not that i dont like that too ... just not on the first date)

i love this thread.

_____________________________

What is a slut: 1. pleasure enthusiast; 2. a wanton individual; 3. a saucy girl

(in reply to thetammyjo)

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