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Abortion


I'm against ALL abortions
  2% (4)
I'm for allowing abortion in ANY circumstance
  26% (38)
I'm against it, unless the LIFE of the mother is at risk
  6% (10)
I'm for it being legal, but I hate it
  23% (34)
I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk
  4% (6)
Keep it legal, only if rape, incest or the mom's life is involved
  6% (10)
I don't care one way or the other
  3% (5)
I believe there is life at conception
  13% (19)
I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months
  6% (10)
I believe life only begins after birth
  6% (10)


Total Votes : 146
(last vote on : 3/18/2011 4:38:46 AM)
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RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 4:30:07 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Multiple choices are allowed.

I wish I could have squeezed about 3 more options in, in regards to choices #8,9, and 10, allowing for a pro-choice or pro-life angle on each of them.


You missed an option, Level: didn't Plato think that the soul only enters the body when the child starts talking?


Moonhead, I didn't know that; hey, if the kid starts to be a pain, we can axe them, as long as they can't speak! Does goo goo ga ga count as speech?

Kidding aside, I actually thought about creating two threads, to try to cover every freaking base, but this one was good enough, I think.

I wasn't complaining: you've done a fine job and covered all of the bases apart from that one, and it's a very long time since anybody took that seriously, I hope.
(I'm not 100% sure it was Plato, but I can double check which philosopher it was if you'd like.)

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RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 5:06:15 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne



I get that and disagree. I'm with Elisabella that the ideal and fair solution would be to allow men a window of opportunity to terminate their parental rights. Men should not have the ability to compel a women to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. The physical autonomy of the woman weighs far more heavily on the scale than the man's interest in the potential product of his seed.


The time they had to exercise those concerns was before they chose to stick their cock in her.

What is so hard to understand about this straightforward concept?


Well I don't mind if anyone believes that, so long as they believe the same thing about a woman - that the time to worry about pregnancy was before she spread her legs.

I obviously disagree on both counts but what I'm addressing is not whether or not *anyone* should have the ability to terminate parental rights, but why it is that people who strongly and passionately believe that one person should have the right to do so can be the same people who strongly and passionately believe that the other person should not have the right to do so.

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RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 5:11:34 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

No again, to the kidney excursion.

Why not?
Why is it OK to force a woman to bear the physical risks of pregnancy and childbirth, but not ok to force a parent to undergo a medical procedure needed to save the life of their own child?



Wyld, unless I'm misunderstanding, this is a huge case of apples and cumquats.

Best I can answer is:

The mother agreeing to carry the child is the only way the child can exist. There aren't any other options to keep it alive.

That's not the case in the kidney scenario.

There are millions, and millions, and millions of children that have been aborted for reasons other than "health". The mother alone held the key to life or death.

Not the case in the kidney scenario.

~~~



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Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 5:15:32 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I wasn't complaining: you've done a fine job and covered all of the bases apart from that one, and it's a very long time since anybody took that seriously, I hope.
(I'm not 100% sure it was Plato, but I can double check which philosopher it was if you'd like.)


Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. No need to chase after that theory; if it wasn't Plato, we'll go ahead and blame him, anyway!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 224
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 6:13:11 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

No again, to the kidney excursion.

Why not?
Why is it OK to force a woman to bear the physical risks of pregnancy and childbirth, but not ok to force a parent to undergo a medical procedure needed to save the life of their own child?



Wyld, unless I'm misunderstanding, this is a huge case of apples and cumquats.

Best I can answer is:

The mother agreeing to carry the child is the only way the child can exist. There aren't any other options to keep it alive.

That's not the case in the kidney scenario.

There are millions, and millions, and millions of children that have been aborted for reasons other than "health". The mother alone held the key to life or death.

Not the case in the kidney scenario.

~~~



Trouble is that with the shortage of organ donors, the comparison really isn't all that far fetched Level.  There are a whole lot of people who die waiting for a transplant.

out damn typo!


< Message edited by zephyroftheNorth -- 3/22/2010 6:34:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 6:18:57 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Wyld, unless I'm misunderstanding, this is a huge case of apples and cumquats.

I don't think so.
quote:

The mother agreeing to carry the child is the only way the child can exist. There aren't any other options to keep it alive.

Well then , the debate is over, as a woman who seeks an abortion obviously does not agree to carry the child. Making abortion illegal would effectively force her to carry the child, big difference. This is regardless of the physical consequences, outside of forseeable death.
quote:

That's not the case in the kidney scenario.

I thought I laid it out pretty plainly, but feel free to substitute any organ you like, a liver perhaps? The scenario is that the child needs a transplant or it will die, and the biological father is a match. Should he be forced to undergo surgery and donate an organ that will save the child? Would you support such a law?
quote:

There are millions, and millions, and millions of children that have been aborted for reasons other than "health". The mother alone held the key to life or death.

That really has nothing to do with the price of kumquats in Guam as regards this particular scenario. That said, it reminds me of those that think, "The vast majority of those on death row are guilty, so if some innocent people die, it's worth it".



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Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 6:21:06 PM   
WyldHrt


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Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

Trouble is that with the shortage of organ donors, the comparison really isn't all that far fetched Level.  There are a whole lot of people who die waiting of a transplant.

Thank you, Zephy. I should have made that more clear.


_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

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Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 6:33:16 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

Trouble is that with the shortage of organ donors, the comparison really isn't all that far fetched Level.  There are a whole lot of people who die waiting of a transplant.

Thank you, Zephy. I should have made that more clear.

'Sokay Wyld, just do what I do and blame it on daylight savings time


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The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 6:39:09 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		If you can't understand my answer, or me your question, then I'm not sure how going any further is going to help.

The organ thing is not the abortion thing.

zephy, you have any stats on how many die a year in the US? A bit of Googling seems to indicate about 17 die a day waiting on transplants, vs almost 4000 abortions. Even if this is incorrect, it does not change what I said; there's one way to keep the child alive, others to keep the transplant-needy alive.

It is different, and wanting to argue it into the ground won't change that.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 6:57:10 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

zephy, you have any stats on how many die a year in the US? A bit of Googling seems to indicate about 17 die


stats for 2003

Heart= about 450/yr
Jung= about 400/yr
Liver= about 2,000/yr
Kidney= about 3,000/yr

http://www.organdonor.gov/student/access/organs.asp




_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:05:31 PM   
SpiritedRadiance


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Joined: 3/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel


This doesn't make sense to me and to me its completely irrational arguments. I get women want equal rights, but how are rights equal when you pretty much state that the product of a Man and a woman is solely the woman's to do with as she pleases until such time that product is viable and then the Man damn well better pay up? I think in situations where one parent wants the child, the fetus should be allowed to progress to viability and once viable given to the parent who wants the child and the other parent if they still wish have all parental rights removed including support.




And when man can carry his child that he wants and the woman does not for 9 months or if he has someone who will carry his child and wishes man can have HIS right to say what the fuck ever he wants about what HE created. Until then you have to understand that 9 months of carrying a child does a lot to  a woman, to some even carrying the child will result in their death, to others it might arrive in complications that result in her being barren for the REST of her life, it might cause a woman to go through a hormonal drop that would cause her to kill herself after the baby is born, if she suffers from any type of mental illness she has to give up the drugs she depends on to stay rational and sane.

When a man has to make such a sacrifice  to have a child Ill start giving a rats ass about a mans right to choose, there are places for a man to take his pretty little sperm and come out with a child, If a man wishes a child so badly he can adopt or find a surrogate, or do many countless other things then endanger a woman's life unnecessarily because the condom broke.

Also ONE final note on female sterilization/ tubal ligation

I also state again and boldly it is VERY hard for a woman to get tubial ligation VERY VERY hard.

So please stop saying it like its an easy option for a woman to obtain, Its not! For a man it takes at least one if not several deposits into a sperm bank for a woman it takes years of begging and pleading to have such a procedure. Even if it would be whats medically healthy for her.

< Message edited by SpiritedRadiance -- 3/22/2010 7:08:51 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:08:31 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

zephy, you have any stats on how many die a year in the US? A bit of Googling seems to indicate about 17 die


stats for 2003

Heart= about 450/yr
Jung= about 400/yr
Liver= about 2,000/yr
Kidney= about 3,000/yr

http://www.organdonor.gov/student/access/organs.asp





16.4 a day, then.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:13:56 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

zephy, you have any stats on how many die a year in the US? A bit of Googling seems to indicate about 17 die


stats for 2003

Heart= about 450/yr
Jung= about 400/yr
Liver= about 2,000/yr
Kidney= about 3,000/yr

http://www.organdonor.gov/student/access/organs.asp





16.4 a day, then.


For those organs alone, yes. It horrifies me far more than the "deaths" of clumps of cells. These are people, Level, people who were loved.


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Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:18:57 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

The organ thing is not the abortion thing.

What I'm getting at, Level, is that you seem to have no issue with forcing a woman to risk her health on an unwanted pregnancy. My question is, putting the shoe on the other foot, should a man be forced to do the same for his biological child? The numbers mean nothing to the discussion, because my question was regarding a specific case. As for "other methods" to keep someone alive while they wait for transplant, they aren't always effective and people do die waiting, so the scenario is entire plausible.
Moving on....

As for stats, how about the fact that 67,000 women worldwide die each year from unsafe abortions, with an additional 5 MILLION either temporarily or permanently disabled. The vast majority of unsafe abortions occur in countries where abortion is illegal. http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/unsafe_abortion/hrpwork/en/index.html
Oh, and making abortion illegal doesn't seem to make a difference in the numbers, as they are similar whether abortion is legal or not: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/news/12iht-12abortion.7863868.html


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Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:22:26 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Do you think I've posted anything saying they were not people that were loved?

Does it horrify you more than a partial birth abortion?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:29:16 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:


ORIGINAL: WyldHrt


What I'm getting at, Level, is that you seem to have no issue with forcing a woman to risk her health on an unwanted pregnancy.


Then you haven't read, or understood, much of what I've said.

quote:

My question is, putting the shoe on the other foot, should a man be forced to do the same for his biological child? The numbers mean nothing to the discussion, because my question was regarding a specific case. As for "other methods" to keep someone alive while they wait for transplant, they aren't always effective and people do die waiting, so the scenario is entire plausible.


You can keep saying this, and I can keep giving the same answer. I won't, but I could, theoritically.

quote:

As for stats, how about the fact that 67,000 women worldwide die each year from unsafe abortions, with an additional 5 MILLION either temporarily or permanently disabled. The vast majority of unsafe abortions occur in countries where abortion is illegal. http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/unsafe_abortion/hrpwork/en/index.html
Oh, and making abortion illegal doesn't seem to make a difference in the numbers, as they are similar whether abortion is legal or not: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/news/12iht-12abortion.7863868.html


It is tragic, isn't it? We can certainly agree on that.


< Message edited by Level -- 3/22/2010 7:30:27 PM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:38:36 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Jung= about 400/yr

I can believe it. Some of his stuff was tough going.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 237
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:51:17 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I Kant understand why!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:53:22 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		-FR-

Okay seriously, how did this get to a debate of "which kills more people organ failure or abortion?"

Unless this is going to be a stem cell debate, the two are entirely separate.

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Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Abortion - 3/22/2010 7:54:14 PM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

I Kant understand why!

Level and Kirata, please report to the punitentiary forthwith, for a well deserved punishment.


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Profile   Post #: 240
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