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[Poll]

Abortion

I'm against ALL abortions

2% (4)

I'm for allowing abortion in ANY circumstance

26% (38)

I'm against it, unless the LIFE of the mother is at risk

6% (10)

I'm for it being legal, but I hate it

23% (34)

I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk

4% (6)

Keep it legal, only if rape, incest or the mom's life is involved

6% (10)

I don't care one way or the other

3% (5)

I believe there is life at conception

13% (19)

I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months

6% (10)

I believe life only begins after birth

6% (10)

Total Votes : 146

(last vote on : 3/18/2011 4:38:46 AM)
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RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 7:48:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
The time they had to exercise those concerns was before they chose to stick their cock in her.

What is so hard to understand about this straightforward concept?

Well I don't mind if anyone believes that, so long as they believe the same thing about a woman - that the time to worry about pregnancy was before she spread her legs.

I obviously disagree on both counts but what I'm addressing is not whether or not *anyone* should have the ability to terminate parental rights, but why it is that people who strongly and passionately believe that one person should have the right to do so can be the same people who strongly and passionately believe that the other person should not have the right to do so.

I think the very practical reason is that when a woman aborts, no one else has to pick up the slack. Baby gone. It's an exercise of reproductive rights, and the loss of the expectancy of parental rights. If men had the ability to terminate their parental rights, someone (frequently the state) would have to step in and provide economic support for that child. There is no equivalent cost when a woman terminates a pregnancy. I think a lot of people who are passionate about reproductive rights don't really give much thought to the scenario because it is about parenting rights, not reproductive rights. And it's not like this a unique burden faced by men. Once the child is born, the woman is also on the hook for supporting that child unless both parents consent to adoption (or they live in Nebraska, I guess). The disparity between men and women is at the reproductive level, not parenting. As Domiguy states, a man's control over his reproductive rights ends with the sperm donation. As the site of conception and gestation, the woman retains control over her reproduction much longer than the man.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 11:09:15 AM

Posts: 6233
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So out of curiosity,

Would people who believe that the decision to have an abortion is SOLELY a woman's right to choose, believe that then only women should be the ones deciding about laws and writing and voting on the bills and rights associated with abortion? That the Men should have no say whatsoever in anything regarding abortion?

To me, if you feel that utterly focused that the abortion issue is a woman only issue and the Men have no say until a child is born, then wouldn't or shouldn't you feel just as strongly that men should have no say in making the laws and voting on the laws associated with abortion?

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
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(in reply to Lucienne)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 11:34:32 AM

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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

So out of curiosity,

Would people who believe that the decision to have an abortion is SOLELY a woman's right to choose, believe that then only women should be the ones deciding about laws and writing and voting on the bills and rights associated with abortion? That the Men should have no say whatsoever in anything regarding abortion?

Either you believe in sovereignty over what is inside your body or you do not. If you do not this is a moot point. It would be like me telling a man he can't get his equipment snipped, and that he has to keep producing sperm. I have no right to interfere with what people do with their body.

If you think that others have the right to impose their will upon your body, then you think that they have that right. I do not agree with you... it is very simple... no one has the right to impose themselves on whether or not I allow something to grow in my uterus. No one has the right to force me to get medical treatment, either.

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(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 11:40:26 AM

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Juliaoceania, i think the question was pretty clear but maybe i missed your actual answer -- would you go as far in your beliefs to fight for the right of women to be the ONLY ONES who make decisions about abortion because it technically has nothing to do with men.

i am asking in terms of RIGHTS in this country -- would you believe so much so that ONLY WOMEN should be allowed to have any say politically and legally over abortion issue? Would your belief extend to taking away the rights of Men to vote or have any say politically or legally on abortion issues?

Can you clarify because your answer doesn't specify really what i was asking about? I am not asking about ANYTHING other than abortion issue legally and politically.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 12:24:32 PM

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From: United States
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No,I'm sorry but that is taking things too far...should we than restrict the right to vote only to those who are affected by a number of other issues?You are referring to the law of the land...yes it's a "womans issue" but how we as a country deal with it does not solely affect woman....in my opinion this would be lunacy.

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(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 12:33:32 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ONLY WOMEN should be allowed to have any say politically and legally over abortion issue?

I think the question is illogical as constitutional questions need amendments to be changed. So if you want to pass laws that restrict abortion they need to pass the constitutional test. That is not up for anyone to "vote" on, unless they want to vote to amend the constitution

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 12:33:41 PM

Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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Jerk offs whether male or female should not make the laws about abortion. Not all men are creeps and not all women are cool.

Laws/Government ought to balance society/things/people out and also work on a case by case thing instead of imposing one law to fit all.

_____________________________

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(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 12:38:35 PM

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

i am asking in terms of RIGHTS in this country -- would you believe so much so that ONLY WOMEN should be allowed to have any say politically and legally over abortion issue? Would your belief extend to taking away the rights of Men to vote or have any say politically or legally on abortion issues?

Making the laws of the land, and a woman deciding on if she should have an abortion are two totally seperate issues. Even suggesting that a man should have some sort of right, to force a woman carry his child for nine months, against her will, is not only absurd but barbaric.

Would I be hurt and upset if a woman decided to abort my child ? Yes very. Would I deny her the right to make that choice ? Not even in my wildest dreams.

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 1:22:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

Laws/Government ought to balance society/things/people out and also work on a case by case thing instead of imposing one law to fit all.

The rule of law is based on the principle that you have a duty to god to not the harm the body - or anyone else's body. Abortion does not sit well in this context. But then society has moved on since the rule of law was conceived - namely the church's influenced has waned.

We all submit to the state in order to have a measure of peace. That is the whole point of government. In this sense - i.e. from a purely practical sense - there is nothing war-like about abortion - it's a private matter - unless others wish to make war by invading someone's civil liberties.

And the above is why you have majority support for legal abortion in secular nations such as England - and a tuf of war in countries where religion features more prominently i.e. the United States.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to heartcream)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 1:29:38 PM

zephyroftheNorth

Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
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quote:

Fuck that, I'll use a condom.

You should be anyway, there are scary diseases and besides half the resposibility of preventing an unwanted pregnancy rests with you....especially if ypur patner can't take the pill for whatever reason

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(in reply to youngsubgeoff)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 1:30:12 PM

Posts: 6233
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Hi politesub, you would think that would be true. But if women feel that this concept of abortion is SOLELY their right, then why would they think Men should be a part of the process of the politics and laws surrounding same? Why not start dividing what is a man's right and what is a woman's because that is what many are saying here with regard to abortion -- its a woman's right and Men have no part of it. So why would these same people say that a Man should be allowed to be part of the process of setting laws and such about it?

As for it being barbaric, i disagree. I know many men who would deny a woman a right to abort his child if they could. I know two men emotionally traumatized by the fact they believe the women who aborted the fetus (mind you one of them had a child with the woman previously and takes very good care of same and this woman never indicated she didn't want more children by him) murdered their child. They go through the same emotions as to what i have seen victims families of murdered people go through however in their belief they have no recourse nor justice.

I don't have the answers of the specifics but not all Men are as considerate of what is theirs to allow another the determination over same if they had a choice to do so. And that fetus is the Man's just as much as its the womans.

I personally don't believe 99% of the abortions that are had in this country are because the mother fears for her health or safety. What it is for many is convenient birth control. I know women who have had abortions so while its a hard choice in the end the choice to do so isn't due to her health or fear of pregnancy or the results of pregnancy, its plan and simple -- they don't want the kid (which is an indication they don't want it after its born).

angel

Edited to add this -- and yes, on many levels if there were issues that solely was based on the rights of men and women had no say in the concept -- i would on many levels not even consider the issue as my concern -- let the Men fight it out amongst themselves.

To me, if people believe the abortion issue is solely a woman's deal and not the concern of the men on any level (and no having them on their side is not a level lol) then perhaps it should be SOLELY a woman issue to decide legally etc.

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/23/2010 1:35:03 PM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 1:38:21 PM

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I want to add this to my question -- how many men would be willing to give up their right to vote or be heard on anything regarding abortion since they have no say legally in the process and whether or not a woman should have an abortion? if you believe its a woman's right solely to decide would you feel the need to be a part of the legal process of passing laws and such?

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 2:03:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

To me, if people believe the abortion issue is solely a woman's deal and not the concern of the men on any level (and no having them on their side is not a level lol) then perhaps it should be SOLELY a woman issue to decide legally etc.

It's an individual right. It's not a collective right held by women. A woman has no more right to force me to carry a pregnancy to term than a man does. Suggesting that reproductive rights be determined by popular vote, as if we were deciding how to decorate the women's room, is really missing the point. And it's just kind of silly. And, yes, you completely missed julia's on-point answer to your question.

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 3:01:24 PM

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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The rule of law is based on the principle that you have a duty to god to not the harm the body - or anyone else's body. Abortion does not sit well in this context. But then society has moved on since the rule of law was conceived - namely the church's influenced has waned.

We all submit to the state in order to have a measure of peace. That is the whole point of government. In this sense - i.e. from a purely practical sense - there is nothing war-like about abortion - it's a private matter - unless others wish to make war by invading someone's civil liberties.

And the above is why you have majority support for legal abortion in secular nations such as England - and a tuf of war in countries where religion features more prominently i.e. the United States.

I do believe God Himself wouldnt prefer a woman to abort an unwanted fetus/child because for one thing, not only then would she need to continue to heal herself she would have this spirit that incarnated against her will to help along as well. Not all spirits are innocent, there are some who would use this guilt-ridden pov to override a woman and force itself upon her. Override her entire life from that point onward. God doesnt dig that, I am quite sure. In my book Church and God are often worlds apart.

As far as us 'all submitting to the state to have a measure of peace' ...The whole point of government should only ever be a place to help balance out differences and the like, not to force, coerce or make any living being submit to anything. Good people which make up most of the population, do not need to be pressured to 'behave' it is instrinsic, natural and really no big deal, well it is a big deal but not something where you need to have a big goon over you make sure you 'stay in line'.

Are you sure there is nothing war-like about abortion? Private matters can be very war-like.

The reason you have people being pro-life at all is because they have a narrow consciousness and are Neandrathalic in their views. They may think they are so loving and 'pro-life' but really they are motivated by guilt and mistake that with God/Love.

They are mistaken.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

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Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 4:09:06 PM

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quote:

Edited to add this -- and yes, on many levels if there were issues that solely was based on the rights of men and women had no say in the concept -- i would on many levels not even consider the issue as my concern -- let the Men fight it out amongst themselves.

So that whole 'suffragette' thing...bad move in your opinion?

ETA I'm not trying to be facetious, it's a serious question - when women didn't have the right to vote it was an issue that was solely based in the rights of men and women had no say in it...so would you have not considered it your concern?

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 3/23/2010 4:12:27 PM >

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 4:53:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

As for it being barbaric, i disagree. I know many men who would deny a woman a right to abort his child if they could

I agree with you that many men would deny womans rights. I dont agree that it is either correct or acceptable in a modern society. It is the woman who takes the risks, healthwise. It is normally the woman left to deal with rasing the child, if things dont work out. None of us have the right to enforce that on someone else.

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 5:13:17 PM

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It easy to cut and paste parts of paragraph to somehow make your point... however, you are not areeing with what i said at all.

i didn't say anything about the woman's rights in that sentence, i said

as you even quoted:

quote:

I know many men who would deny a woman a right to abort his child if they could

You see what i see in that sentence is men who would stop a woman a right to murder his kid -- as this is the majority of how they see it -- even if i don't. But despite all the sob stories about women, people coldly say oh well to these men.

To me the sob story about the poor woman being left to raise the kids to me is a bogus reason they should be left with the sole decision to abort the children. Personally, i don't think abortion is ever even discussed in pregnancies where you have deadbeat dads, so that argument is moot. I can tell you just as many stories about women as people can say about men. But the argument is moot its not about AFTER the child is born from what most are saying.

You know life hits people with difficult situations in EVERYONE's lives and i can bet you that 85% of the women whose Man has done them and the kids wrong, would not have determind to abort. So again that argument is moot.

I find it ironic yu didn't quote the whole paragraph lol, what you cut out of that quote was the personal stories i know of two men. But then you use the hardship of women to support your belief.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Abortion - 3/23/2010 5:22:56 PM

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Angel, I used your own words. You used the word right, I copied it, I dont see that as ungenuine.

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Abortion - 3/24/2010 9:11:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
You know, the Muslims use the term ensoulment.

I'm aware of that, the Catholic position is also based on their belief in the same sort of mystical transference, they just disagree on when it happens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
But before ensoulment (I believe in the notion of the soul even though I'm an atheist), I have no issues with women having an abortion.

What is a soul?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Abortion - 3/24/2010 2:45:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

I do believe God Himself wouldnt prefer a woman to abort an unwanted fetus/child because for one thing, not only then would she need to continue to heal herself she would have this spirit that incarnated against her will to help along as well. Not all spirits are innocent, there are some who would use this guilt-ridden pov to override a woman and force itself upon her. Override her entire life from that point onward. God doesnt dig that, I am quite sure. In my book Church and God are often worlds apart.

I suppose god can be whatever you want.......

Were there a god - I'd like to think he's a reasonable bloke who would say: "people make mistakes - and there are plenty of people out there making mistakes". Predictably - those who shout the loudest have least to shout about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

As far as us 'all submitting to the state to have a measure of peace' ...The whole point of government should only ever be a place to help balance out differences and the like, not to force, coerce or make any living being submit to anything.

It's the same thing - resolving differences/submitting to the state - you have the right of appeal but the state's decision is final - same thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

Good people which make up most of the population, do not need to be pressured to 'behave' it is instrinsic, natural and really no big deal, well it is a big deal but not something where you need to have a big goon over you make sure you 'stay in line'.

There is no such thing as inherently 'good people'.....only circumstances and paths.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to heartcream)

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