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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/3/2006 7:32:14 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I don't see it as my job to defend Jay's work on this matter - but I wouldn't call it scare tactics either. If I understand you correctly, your own message is nearly the same as his except that he would seem to prefer to err on the side of caution and you seem to think there is some middle position of greater objectivity. Without a data set for safe play you cannot possibly make that claim. As long as you agree that there is a known potential for things to go disastrously wrong during breath play I can't see that that two positions are substantially different except that while Jay cannot apparently substantiate SOME of his data set, a person like yourself has no data set for safe play at all. Further, while you acknowledge that breath play is not safe you claim that Jay is using scare tactics to dissuade people from playing in this area - but in my view Jay is merely acknowledging that the only available data set suggests that this form of play is inherently dangerous.

The article you linked to doesn't provide an alternative data set either, it just pretends to critique Jay's position by excluding certain data for reasons of negligence - which is wholly absurd.

The final absurdity is that I expect Jay cannot substantiate some of his data because it's probably anecdotal and such data is routinely discounted on those grounds alone. But anyone that defends the idea that breath play can be done safely is relying on the same same kind of information - anecdotal experience. So again, that's equal footing with the weight of real documented data leaning toward breath play being dangerous.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 4/3/2006 8:27:38 AM >

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/3/2006 8:17:21 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		To me, the bottom line is... if someone can tell if a person is about to have a PVC I suppose they can back off from ligature strangulation, but I'd like to have someone tell me what I should look for so I can see that.  Absent a way to detect such an event, I don't see how I can control an amazingly dangerous factor of this kind of breath play.



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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/3/2006 9:32:04 AM   
NickInSLC


Posts: 121
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		The simple fact (and Jay Wiseman's point), is that breathplay is dangerous.  Particularly if you're not attentive enough to notice that your partner is unconcious or if you've crushed their windpipe. 

Choke holds that focus on pinching off the carotid ateries are risky too, that's when you pass out within a couple seconds all of the sudden.  Sometimes, when you pinch an atery closed, it sticks that way when you let go.  It's not common, but when it happens, the chokehold victim won't wake up.  Ever.  My understanding is that's usually the cause of an accidental chokehold fatality.  Granted, I'm not a doctor.

When I do breathplay, I prefer to stop my bottom from breathing by covering the mouth and nose.  I'm not doing anything risky to the airway.  Plus, I get the added benefit of watching them panic and struggle for air.  And to let the person breath again, all I have to do, is let them breath.  If I let up before they pass out, I can get immediate feedback as to their desire to continue play.

Now, even the way I do it, there are risks.  If you're going to engage in breathplay, both parties need to be informed of the risks.  And the top in particular must educate themselves in order to minimize the risks.  If you are choking somebody to unconciousness with a hangnoose, and aren't certified in CPR, you're definitely not making an effort to negate the risks.

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/5/2006 2:00:49 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

I call bullshit.

Can you please document this comparison for us?


Okay since you are calling out random silly stuff, I call dog. 

If you look at his actual documentation of deaths of breath play (at least when I wrote that handout two years ago) they are of auto-erotic asphyxiation (i.e. one person doing breath play to themselves).  I'm not going to do the heavy lifting for you on that.

quote:


Also, what second body of data do we have access to for the latter category of "consensual breath play between two people"?


I don't know what this has to do with what *I* said, that seems to be some weird tangent.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 4/5/2006 2:07:18 PM >

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/5/2006 4:31:26 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
Also, what second body of data do we have access to for the latter category of "consensual breath play between two people"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
I don't know what this has to do with what *I* said, that seems to be some weird tangent.


You know what, this is a serious subject and deserves to be treated as such. I am not making personal attacks on you - just on the misleading information you are providing and false sense of safety you would seem to want to create around the subject of breath play. So yeah, I come at this like a rabid "dog" because I think you are talking bullshit.

Did you or did you not make the following statement in your first post in this thread?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
"The one thing to keep in mind in reading his essays is that he relies entirely on cases of auto erotic asphyxiation (breath play alone and generally done via hanging) as opposed to consensual breath play between two people.


So put up or shut up. Do you have a second data set of people engaging in "consensual breath play between two people" or not? That's YOUR phrase before I entered the conversation. Do you have such a data set?

Sadly, we have to discuss this subject logically rather than via some fantasy criteria peculiar to yourself.

Other points:
One of your links just makes assertions of its own based on very limited information about sports interactions with the throat - plenty of disclaimers in many of the facts there too. The other link is actually dead, so I have no idea what info was revealed there.

Finally, Jay does draw upon information beyond "auto-erotic asphyxiation" but as already stated I believe it is anecdotal information - which places him on equal footing with his detractors who likewise rely upon limited anecdotal information. That said, the best information we have comes largely from the case histories of emergency responders - and yes, in the main that information goes very heavily in favor of breath play as being a wildly dangerous activity.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 4/5/2006 4:34:51 PM >

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/5/2006 5:56:30 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
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From: Connecticut
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang So put up or shut up. Do you have a second data set of people engaging in "consensual breath play between two people" or not? That's YOUR phrase before I entered the conversation. Do you have such a data set?


I never said I had a data set of people engaging in consensual breath play, so please stop putting words in my mouth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
"The one thing to keep in mind in reading his essays is that he relies entirely on cases of auto erotic asphyxiation (breath play alone and generally done via hanging) as opposed to consensual breath play between two people.
 

Then you said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang   Finally, Jay does draw upon information beyond "auto-erotic asphyxiation" but as already stated I believe it is anecdotal information - which places him on equal footing with his detractors who likewise rely upon limited anecdotal information.
 

In terms of *actual * data, if you’d like to show how Jay Wiseman relies on cases besides auto erotic asphyxiation, I’d like to hear it.  Because (to be repetitive, just so you can hear what I’m saying instead of putting words in my mouth): "The one thing to keep in mind in reading his essays is that he relies entirely on cases of auto erotic asphyxiation (breath play alone and generally done via hanging) as opposed to consensual breath play between two people.”  

Otherwise, this is all pointless and we simply disagree (and imagine that, you can disagree with someone without screaming bullshit like a "rabid dog").
 
C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 4/5/2006 5:57:45 PM >

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/5/2006 8:42:17 PM   
Chaingang


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Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Wildfleurs:

Can you understand that you act as if there was another body of evidence from which Jay could draw his conclusions, then you admit there isn't one (which is widely known and understood) - and yet that misleading and false opposition is the foundation of your argument. If you cannot understand the problem with that then I withdraw because you cannot logically support your argument.

Wishing for a data set that supports your conclusions doesn't create one magically out of thin air. Jay's teachings on the subject are as fact based and even-handed as it is possible to be at this moment in time with the available evidence.

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/5/2006 8:47:09 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Unless someone can point to a data set derived from a laboratory which engaged in controlled testing of strangling and suffocating people, it is all anecdotal, even the 100+ years of Kodokan data on shime-waza in randori...and all beside the point, since no one seems to be claiming that any of it is guaranteed to be safe.

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/5/2006 10:23:27 PM   
beneathfeet


Posts: 28
Joined: 1/21/2005
From: East Stroudsburg PA, USA
Status: offline 		i just love this topic and more importantly the passion with which it is being played out.

There are some important factors that i would like to bring to light, and no there is no prevailing "data set" with which to back up these points, however i am very confident that none of these statements are deliberately misleading

Life is dangerous, nobody ever survives.
Quantity of life is not synonymous with Quality of life

To draw upon the negative data set, which is the only available one, is to judge the problem from only one side.  Analogous conclusions are made everyday by medical professionals who believe that riding a motorcycle is anything less than deferred suicide. The reason for their belief is that the only motorcyclists they see are the ones who have suffered misfortune.  By this token the statement that "riding a motorcycle is perfectly safe, right up until the point it goes wrong, horribly wrong!" is just as valid.

To those who labor so intensely to save human life, the context of risk assessment becomes blurred.  The belief that any risk is bad is to live life in fear. i for one 100% reject the notion that any act committed by humans has an inherent degree of safety associated with it.  All that is left is the degree of risk and consenting adults comfort with this degree.

Yes breath play is dangerous, very dangerous.
However saying that any act should not be condoned, considered or God forbid engaged in because there is risk, is akin to sentencing ones self to a life imprisoned by the fear of the very life one seeks to live.  A death spiral of indecision by any definition.

i'd like to close by prefacing my opinion by the fact that as a former US Marine, i do tend to frown upon any stance that abrogates risk in favor of the fallacy of absolute safety.  Caution is always a trait of the successful, however knowing the proper amount of moderation may be the single hardest decision any of us ever makes.  By all means study the problem, research all of the risks and issues.  Butt ultimately decide your stance not purely on the negative statistics, all of the data points where by people enjoy breath play and do not suffer any greater harm are never collected because they constitute a non-event in the world of statistical analysis.

"Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics!"

"Everyone dies, not everyone lives!"



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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 5:13:08 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beneathfeet
i just love this topic and more importantly the passion with which it is being played out.


The OP said she was a newb and had passed out during breath play according to her partner. How far and how risky they want to play is clearly up to them and nothing anyone says will change that. The original issue as posed to us all is basically this statement: "However we had an incident today that has really frightened him and he refuses to do that anymore unless I can find out how to be safe, we do have a way to signal him when I need air."

How to be safe?

Answer: You can't be safe. This is dangerous as hell. People have died during some known incidents of consensual play. There are aspects to this kind of play that have nothing to do with visible physical damage and those aspects have no real way to be monitored during regular play. Proceed at your KNOWN risk.

I will now turn the question around: why should anyone tell newbs any different than what I have just stated?

I AM NOT A LAWYER, but if people choose to play this way and an absolutely predictable death occurs I could just as easily predict a manslaughter charge coming down because of it. For those not knowing, manslaughter is: "The unlawful killing of one human being by another without express or implied intent to do injury." Got it? No intent is necessary.



< Message edited by Chaingang -- 4/6/2006 5:21:12 AM >

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 7:08:03 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Wildfleurs:

Can you understand that you act as if there was another body of evidence from which Jay could draw his conclusions, then you admit there isn't one (which is widely known and understood) - and yet that misleading and false opposition is the foundation of your argument. If you cannot understand the problem with that then I withdraw because you cannot logically support your argument.


What I understand is that you keep on trying to create some position for me that simply doesn't exist.  I can refer you back to my original words again:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

The one thing to keep in mind in reading his essays is that he relies entirely on cases of auto erotic asphyxiation (breath play alone and generally done via hanging) as opposed to consensual breath play between two people.


C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 7:15:06 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Wildfleurs:

How do you know there is any such thing as "consensual breath play between two people"?




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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 4:08:44 PM   
mountainwildkat


Posts: 7
Joined: 4/1/2006
Status: offline 		Well, lets see. First I would like to thank you all for your concern. Secondly, I corrected my self later I am new to this he is not. Third, I laughed out loud at the implication that I was a thrill seeker.

quote:

but let's not ignore the fact that people are intentionally choking each other without any real reason to do so except some possible thrill-seeking



That made my day, I'm about as adventurous as your average bunny. Some days I am afraid to walk out my own door. I am afraid of a lot of things, I am afraid most of the time. About the only time I am not afraid is when I am with him, and please keep in mind that most things I do with him, I am the one to suggest. He has been doing these things off and on for most of his life, I have always wanted to but been afraid before. I have never in my life trusted anyone enough to do any of these things with them. I trust him, and I am not afraid of him, and was the one who suggested we do breath play, he agreed so the answer to Chaingang is, she may not know, but I do and yes there is.

quote:

How do you know there is any such thing as "consensual breath play between two people"?


But this is all most likely a moot point. He loves me very much and his fear of losing me is very strong, he doesn't fear what would happen legally to him after, if he were to accidentally cause my death, he, but fears living his life without me. I will show him all the information, let him know how I feel about it, we will talk, and he will most likely say "No more of that for you." And I will bow to his wishes, what choice do I have. And this thrill seeker( who won't even ride a roller coaster, get on an airplane, or ride in a car with most people) will just not get to do that one risky thing anymore (only real risk involved in my life). Also, Chaingang, before you judge someone on other people you know and call them a thrill seeker (and I don't think you meant it in a good way) you better make sure their list of fears doesn't include things like butterflies.

< Message edited by mountainwildkat -- 4/6/2006 4:13:24 PM >

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 5:18:16 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mountainwildkat
Also, Chaingang, before you judge someone on other people you know and call them a thrill seeker (and I don't think you meant it in a good way) you better make sure their list of fears doesn't include things like butterflies.


I did mean it in a good way. People skydive, mountain climb, etc. - but they do so knowing the risks and prepare against them. FWIW, I do many things that people consider edge play; I just don't like to make a big point of that because you don't want to come across to a newbie as being "more bad-ass than thou" because it sends the wrong message and it's not a competition by any conception of it. Safety is enormously important and should always come first. Then after long study and contemplation people can make up their own minds - and doubtless you will make up your own mind in your own way. I don't pretend to change anyone's mind about the risks they are willing to take in their lives. We have SSC and RACK - and that's the whole point: informed consent.

With breath play it's simply not possible to know some of the things going on below the surface of the skin and there is no way to truly protect against them. That message has to be repeated because one can only hope it will save someone's life who might otherwise simply not have known how dangerous breath play can be. It's simply not in the category of some "cool thing" that should be tried spontaneously on a Saturday night.

Arguing back and forth lacking any real data for safe breath play just seems silly to me, but I also felt someone had to consistently stand up for the dangerous risk assessment that has been widely accepted about this activity.


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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 6:15:01 PM   
SirPrize


Posts: 31
Joined: 11/23/2004
Status: offline 		If you want to try breath play that's a lot safer and erotic as all hell, have him pinch your nostrils shut with his fingers, then place his mouth over yours so it's covered completely.  Then gently inhale while he gently exhales, and vice versa.  It takes a little practice to get your timing down, and he has to learn to let air in and out of his nostrils at the same time as he's breathing in and out of you, but once you get it down...it is F%^&&G HOT!

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 6:50:14 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Dude, you need to put ResuscAnnie away and get out and meet some real women!

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/6/2006 11:03:53 PM   
beneathfeet


Posts: 28
Joined: 1/21/2005
From: East Stroudsburg PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

The OP said she was a newb and had passed out during breath play according to her partner. How far and how risky they want to play is clearly up to them and nothing anyone says will change that. The original issue as posed to us all is basically this statement: "However we had an incident today that has really frightened him and he refuses to do that anymore unless I can find out how to be safe, we do have a way to signal him when I need air."

How to be safe?

Answer: You can't be safe. This is dangerous as hell. People have died during some known incidents of consensual play. There are aspects to this kind of play that have nothing to do with visible physical damage and those aspects have no real way to be monitored during regular play. Proceed at your KNOWN risk.


There has been more than one occasion in my life where i have been completely wrong about a subject and the intentions of those who have engaged in said discussion.  If this is the case than please accept my apologies.

The points that you and i disagree upon appear to be minor.  we both agree that breath play is dangerous, and should only be approached after considerable thought.  i do get concerned when advice, as well intentioned as it may be, becomes a bully pulpit.

When quoting a body of evidence without a control group, or alternative body of evidence, conclusions are drawn that might not be in evidence.  i will grant you that there have been fatalities due to the practice of breath play, however i am left wondering how many people die of vigorous activity in bed through pure vanilla practices?

Perhaps the only issue i have with your statements is the emphatic tone of righteousness they are presented with.  Perhaps i am just misreading your intent, i do have to honestly say that for myself the presentation of data and quotes from one persons point of view, while strongly rebuffing anyone of opposing view are reminiscent of scare tactics.

quote:


I will now turn the question around: why should anyone tell newbs any different than what I have just stated?


To answer your question; regardless of a person's level of experience, presenting them with a single viewpoint can never approach the truth.  your viewpoint is perfectly valid; however it is not the only viewpoint.  "Anyone" should share their honest views freely, prefaced by the point that these are views and opinions, Not unequivocal statements of fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
I AM NOT A LAWYER, but if people choose to play this way and an absolutely predictable death occurs I could just as easily predict a manslaughter charge coming down because of it. For those not knowing, manslaughter is: "The unlawful killing of one human being by another without express or implied intent to do injury." Got it? No intent is necessary.


To carry your point forward to an illogical end, anytime anyone is involved with the death of another human being there is the chance for litigious dealings.  Does this mean that i should never cook a meal for my Wife because if God forbid She were to choke on the meal i provided i am culpable?  At sometime W/we have to be courageous enough to set aside our fear of legalistic maneuverings to actually enjoy O/ourselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  mountainwildkat
I have never in my life trusted anyone enough to do any of these things with them. I trust him, and I am not afraid of him, and was the one who suggested we do breath play, he agreed so the answer to Chaingang is, she may not know, but I do and yes there is.


This lifestyle, community and its interactions are so very potent because as mountainwildkat stated so eloquently, it is all about Trust.

Please excuse me if my words have come off as a tirade that was not my intent. These words are solely my own and do not represent the views of management, Your mileage may vary and as always product shipped by weight not volume, some settling may have occurred.


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**********************************

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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/14/2006 12:33:41 PM   
subtoFemDommes


Posts: 72
Status: offline
quote:

As far as safety goes, knowing CPR is paramount if you're going to engage in breathplay.  And just in case that fails, invest in a good shovel.
Just get the good shovel, the odds are very good you'd need it.

The amount of misinformation about what CPR will and won't do is sad, but suffice it to say that if I could make bets with odds that good, I'd be way too busy enjoying my winnings to be posting here.

Check out these two links (oh, and remember, you're most likely going to be alone, so have fun calling 911 while administering it fast enough to avoid permanent brain damage...).
quote:

  • In cities such as Seattle, Washington, where CPR training is widespread and EMS response and time to defibrillation is short, the survival rate for witnessed VF cardiac arrest is about 30 percent.
  • In cities such as New York City, where few victiims receive bystander CPR and time to EMS response and defibrillation is longer, survival from sudden VF cardiac arrest averages 1–2 percent.
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4483
quote:

As opposed to many medical myths, researchers have reliable data concerning the success rates of CPR (without the use of automatic defibrillators) in a variety of settings:
  • 2% to 30% effectiveness when administered outside of the hospital

  • 6% to 15% for hospitalized patients

  • Less than 5% for elderly victims with multiple medical problems

Play as you will, just don't pretend that you're going to be one of those characters on "ER" if your partner stops breathing.  (And please don't compare the liability of killing someone with cooking them a meal (as someone else did) or riding a motorcycle.  When the DA drags you into court and they research your bdsm life, along with the fact that you had "reasonable knowledge" that you could kill someone doing this, even if you get off, your life will be ruined.



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RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/14/2006 1:37:31 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		The thing is that the fact sheet from the American Heart Association from where you selectively quotes begins with these first couple of important paragraphs.

quote:



There are no reliable national statistics on CPR because no single agency collects information about how many people get CPR, how many don't get it who need it, how many people are trained, etc. Many studies have examined CPR in specific communities. While they show varying rates of success, all are consistent in showing benefits from early CPR. These statements are fair generalizations:
  • Early CPR and defibrillation (de-fib"rih-LA'shun) within the first 3–5 minutes after collapse, plus early advanced care can result in high (greater than 50 percent) long-term survival rates for witnessed ventricular fibrillation (ven-TRIK'u-ler fib"rih-LA'shun). 
  • The value of early CPR by bystanders is that it can "buy time" by maintaining some blood flow to the heart and brain during cardiac arrest. Early bystander CPR is less helpful if EMS personnel equipped with a defibrillator arrive later than 8–12 minutes after the collapse.


See: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4483

The editorial by Dr. Shmerling that you quoted from was originally written in 2001 and the only study it quotes is from 1996 and is a study on the effectiveness of CPR on Television Shows in America.  The statistics you copied and pasted from the his editorial piece aren't even properly attributed by him, so god knows where he got the statistics from.

C~ who has accepted that apparently I'm going to die and my owner is going to spend the rest of his life in jail from us having done breath play for the last five or so years.  Of course first I need to die for this to all happen appropriately....


< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 4/14/2006 1:40:02 PM >

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(in reply to subtoFemDommes)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety - 4/14/2006 3:22:26 PM   
subtoFemDommes


Posts: 72
Status: offline
quote:
  • Early CPR and defibrillation (de-fib"rih-LA'shun) within the first 3–5 minutes after collapse, plus early advanced care can result in high (greater than 50 percent) long-term survival rates for witnessed ventricular fibrillation (ven-TRIK'u-ler fib"rih-LA'shun). 
  • The value of early CPR by bystanders is that it can "buy time" by maintaining some blood flow to the heart and brain during cardiac arrest. Early bystander CPR is less helpful if EMS personnel equipped with a defibrillator arrive later than 8–12 minutes after the collapse


You can find an endless series of references to the fact that survival rates are only good in that first 4-5 minutes; after 10, they're negligible.  That means, from the time your partner realizes your heart has stopped, to the time the EMT's put the AED on your chest. 

I have worked in the Emergency Response field, under excellent circumstances (we essentially had a dedicated Fire Station serving our specialized population).  But from the time something happened to the time they were hands-on the victim, was frequently more than that 5 minutes.  We, however, were equipped with AED's and trained to use them (anyone could, they really are automatic). 

If you really like to indulge, the purchase of one might make a lot more sense than that next trip to Black Rose (they're down to about $1200 now).  But "knowing CPR", which studies show is a skill that deteriorates rapidly among non-professionals (within a few months of training) is ill reassurance in my mind. 

As for your Master spending the rest of his life in prison? Doubtful (even in Connecticut) but after the publicity, the lawyers fees and even probation, (not to mention the memory of you) life may just not have enough gusto to compensate for the risk.  But that's my decision.

The point I wanted to make is that the often heard advice "you'd better know CPR" is really no significant backup for the risk involved here.

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 40
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