Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (Full Version)

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mountainwildkat -> Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 5:48:16 PM)

My partner and I are fairly new to all of this, but have discovered that I REALLY LOVE breath play. However we had an incident today that has really frightened him and he refuses to do that anymore unless I can find out how to be safe, we do have a way to signal him when I need air. We have been doing this for about a month now and usually he can choke me for about a minute and a half before I need air. But today, and I'm going by what he said as I don't remember it, he said I lost consciousness and wasn't breathing for a bit. Here is what I do remember. He was sitting on the bed next to me and put his hand around my throat, and began to squeeze, my vision got a little gray, and I saw stars, then I was breathing through my nose making snorting noises like I was snoring and he was looking down and me and very pale and said "You just scared the fuck out of me". This all happened very quickly, so quickly that I did not know I was in trouble until it was over. It took less time from beginning to end then he usually spends choking me during sex. Neither of us know why it happened so quickly. One other thing that seems odd to me is that I was fine from the moment I focused on his face, I didn't feel dizzy or disoriented and my throat didn't even hurt. He said that he thought I was going to die, but I felt fine and still do. He didn't even leave any marks on my neck and every other time we have done this he has. Any safety tips or explanations as to what may have caused this will be appreciated.



Dezires -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 7:15:13 PM)

I'm into this as well, and me and my partner dabble in it now and again. He's afraid of it, I'm not.

You need to research articles on safe breath-play, etc.

I get to the point where I can barely breath, my head starts to pound, the color goes gray and then it's over, I orgasm, and he lets go and I can breath again.

Seeing as you have experienced grayness and you seem more alert when focusing on him, then continue on that. You should try it gradually at first. Just have him put his hands there, then slowly work your way to light squeezing and then full-out choking.

Google asphyxiation and see what comes up!



mountainwildkat -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 7:36:35 PM)

First off thanks for your reply Dezires. I have googled the crap out of this and have found nothing useful. Like I said though, we have been experimenting in this for about a month now and all was going fine until today. He waits for my signal that I need to breath and we haven't had any problems up to now, but the incident today happened so fast, scary fast. I did have asthma as a child, but "outgrew it" I have not had an attack in more then 25 years, but wonder if that may have had something to do with it. And when I say scary fast, I mean he had barely started, maybe 30 seconds, if that. He is a very caring and loving person and loves me so much that this really put a scare into him. My biggest fear here is a loss of trust. He depends on me to let him know when anything is too intense and let him know. He has done this with past partners and has never had a problem before. The fault must somehow be mine, but neither of us are sure why this happened. I have very good breath control, even being a former asthmatic (and I'm ashamed to admit, heavy smoker). I don't know if everyone see it this way, but I feel it's my job to keep us both safe by letting him know when I have reached my limits. As I have said we have gone much longer then that and not had a problem until today.



mountainwildkat -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 7:47:46 PM)

Well, well what do you know I did come up with something useful on google on this. One article says "As little as seven pounds of pressure will collapse the carotid artery, producing unconsciousness within seconds." This seems to be a likely explanation of what happened today. Not cutting off the oxygen, but cutting off the blood supply. Again any advice on how to be safe would be appreciated, as I really enjoy this and don't want him to stop doing it.



silentmasterof2 -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 7:50:18 PM)

Hello Mountainwildkat, my sub and I do breath play, she is into it very much  she was my first experience and I was a bit nevervous with it at first. What you described is were she wants to get to when being choked. I usually twist her collar tight from behind and when she goes limp I count to 5 and release it. She blacks out for a short time then revives herself and quite honestly doesn't know she was out. This turns her on a great deal. She is a nurse and explained to me that by twisting the collar I shut the blood flow off to her coretta artery (sp) that is what takes her out, when  I release the blood flow starts again and in a short time she is back to normal. I hope this sheds some light, it is our experience with this and I am not sure you experienced the same. Be safe and take it slowly as you develop this type of play.



angelic -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 7:57:09 PM)

i love breath play... i particularly like the 'floating' feeling when i've passed out... having said that... it is a very dangerous thing to do.  my former knew exactly what he was doing and i trusted him implicitly to KNOW when to stop... it's a very fine line... and could be a line between life and death. 



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 7:58:37 PM)

Some essays by Jay Wiseman, the author of SM 101.  He wrote a book on breath play, too, but the name escapes me.

http://members.aol.com/OldRope/breamain.htm



starchild63 -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 8:05:32 PM)

Mountainwildkat, you may want to read artcles by Jay Wiseman.  Breath play is dangerous so on and so forth.  It will always be different everytime.  I am into it as well.  I would never let a Dom use anything but a hand to strict my air or blood flow.  I find that it scares alot of them off when I tell them I am "into" it.  Good luck and be safe....hope Jay's articles help. 



mountainwildkat -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/1/2006 8:21:31 PM)

Thank you all for your replies. He does only use his hands (he is a very strong man). I did not know that I had blacked out until it was over, but that doesn't change the fact that I did black out. He stopped immediately when he saw that I had blacked out, like I said it was only a few seconds. When we talked about it, he told me that what bothers him most it that I seemed not to be concerned at all about it, and that he thought I was way to "into" it (meaning my little black out). I think I made him nervous by asking him what I had looked like, how did I sound, and so forth. I may have been a little unclear in my first post, he is experienced in this, I am not. Having said that, he has never had anyone go unconscious on him before (it may have been that we weren't actually having sex at the time and always before he was always actually having sex, this time he was sitting beside me on the bed while I masturbated), the angle may have been bad, or the lack of movement on his part may have had something to do with it. And really if he didn't love me so much I don't think he would be so concerned.



Jnj -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 8:06:06 AM)

He caught a carotid.  If you press your fingers underneath your chin on either side of your throat, you can feel the artery as it pulses.   If someone chokes you with their hands near the top of your throat, it is very easy to unintentionally press on this artery.  It supplies oxyginated blood to the face, eyes, and brain. It generally only takes 10-15 seconds for you to lose conciousness when oxygen is fully denied to the brain.   There was probably no way for you to alert him that you were at the level of passing out because it came on so quickly.

In regards to your finding a safe way to do breathplay, that is impossible.  We begin all our our breathplay classes with the sentence "there is no safe way to do breathplay," and that is because there are ways to make it as safe as possible from minor harm, but there is no way to fully irradicate the possibility of death.  One of the major reason this comes into play is the vagus nerve, which is a nerve complex that runs through the neck, generally near the jugular vein, which among other things, helps regulate heartrate.  Simply put, if impacted, this nerve can cause a vaso-vagal reflex which basically slows the heart and can drastically lower blood pressure.  Since this nerve can not be seen, there is no possible way to fully avoid hitting it when choking someone out.  With that being said, vaso-vagal related deaths in Judo, which frequently uses choke holds, are almost non-existant, so make of it what you will.



Wildfleurs -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 8:58:17 AM)

Its important to keep in mind that there is no real safe and perfectly acceptable way to do breath play.  Everyone has a different idea in their mind of what is an acceptable risk in terms of doing breath play and what types of breath play.  If you are doing stuff around the neck, you may want to make sure that your boyfriend/partner/top/insert appropriate term is familiar with the layout of the neck so he knows where to squeeze and where to not squeeze.  It should be as easy as a google search on the anatomy of the neck to find some pictures and information on that.

With that said, here are some resources that are from a handout that we've used when my owner and I did a presentation on breath play:  

Information on Breath play Breath Control Play - http://www.mybdsm.com/pages/breathplay/enter.html - A series of essays on breath control, the risks of it, and resources.  

Asphyxiation Newsgroup  - alt.sex.asphyx (can also be accessed on http://groups.google.com)  

The Judo Choke - http://www.fightingarts.com/content01/judo_choke.shtml - A series of articles on how to do choking holds (including with the carteroid artery) safely complete with drawings.  

Information on the dangers of breath play

Jay Wiseman’s Essays on the Medical Dangers of Breath Play - http://members.aol.com/OldRope/breamain.htm - Includes essays on: The Medical Realities of Breath Play, Breath Control: Is Epinephrine The "Smoking Gun"?,etc.  The one thing to keep in mind in reading his essays is that he relies entirely on cases of auto erotic asphyxiation (breath play alone and generally done via hanging) as opposed to consensual breath play between two people.  

http://www.datenschlag.org/howto/atem/english/risiken.html - Largely German website (but there’s lots of information that’s been translated into English) that has information on various medical issues to watch out for.  Very detailed, dry, but good information.  And as opposed to Wiseman who gets his information largely from autoerotic asphyxiation, they pull from sports medicine and other more relevant areas.  

Danger in the Judo Choke? - http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1970/apr70/dan.html - An article on a study of people’s medical reactions to being put in various judo holds.  They conclude that while the people became unconscious after the holds, because the holds were not continued while they were unconscious there was no permanent damage but the holds should not be performed on people suffering cardiac problems of hypertension since there is an increase in blood pressure and load to the heart during the holds.

C~



NickInSLC -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 1:02:13 PM)

I would join in the consencous that he closed off your carotid arteries.  Not exactly breathplay, but nonetheless, fun.

I usually prefer to cover the mouth and nose of my breathplay bottom.  It takes longer, passing out is much less sudden, and I really love the look of panic when somebody really really wants air.

As far as safety goes, knowing CPR is paramount if you're going to engage in breathplay.  And just in case that fails, invest in a good shovel.



mountainwildkat -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 1:42:46 PM)

I am going to the doctor in a couple of days and while I'm there I'm going to get a couple of things documented to afford him some protection. Given the information that is out there, I seriously doubt that he will be doing this again. I have pointed out to him that there is risk involved in everything we do, but I think the suddenness is the scary part for him. I mean I could get a blood clot from the bruises, or infection from the breaks in the skin, just to list a couple of the risk factors. I like the breath play more then he does, he likes it a little and did it impulsively the first time, turns out I like it a lot. But like I told him, I don't need these things to be happy, all I really need is him, it is my preference though.. Fortunately it's his too (we fell in love prior to knowing we shared the same kink).



Alumbrado -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 2:19:48 PM)

Any sort of play that touches upon medical areas has the potential to be dangerous, and unfortunately, some folks have jumped into things like pressure points and breath play on the basis of seeing it done or reading a little about it.  
It would perhaps be wiser to give these areas the same serious approach that a doctor would give to performing a somewhat risky medical technique on a patient...'Better safe than sorry'. 
(i.e. they should know exactly what they are doing, and what their partner's risk factors are, and most importantly, what to do if something goes wrong.)

The recent trend of borrowing from the martial arts carries with it a systemic problem, in that things developed for self defense rarely give a damn about the condition of the opponent...so rather than treat your play partner that way, I would suggest that people become really knowledgeable from a medical standpoint before poking, prodding or choking anyone.

Just my .02, YMMV.




petwolf22 -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 6:27:14 PM)

i've been into the choking, too, but never let myself get to the point of passing out.  My fiance has always just put enough pressure so that less air is getting in, but i can still draw in a little bit of air.  For me its enough to get the feeling of control.



PenelopePitstop -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 6:32:45 PM)

I passed out from this myself, that was bloody scary, and there is simply NO SAFE WAY TO DO IT. Some people have died at the click of a finger. If you can pass out, you can die. It can be instantaneous.

Recently I'm finding that intense stimulation of the neck, friction, a blade, just a hand laid on my throat all night can be pretty arousing instead.

All the same I completely understand your decision to continue. Some things just work.







Chaingang -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 7:22:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
The one thing to keep in mind in reading his essays is that he relies entirely on cases of auto erotic asphyxiation (breath play alone and generally done via hanging) as opposed to consensual breath play between two people.


I call bullshit.

Can you please document this comparison for us? Also, what second body of data do we have access to for the latter category of "consensual breath play between two people"? I don't think much if anything exists in the second category because no one calls paramedics if nothing goes wrong - they call only if there is an emergency and maybe not even then...

"Yeah, 911?! I just strangled my girlfriend - she's not breathing!..."

It's all well and good to question authority and draw your own conclusions - but at the moment I think we only have one data set to draw upon in any case. That one data set is riddled with cases of injury, brain damage, and death from breath play. People that survive breath play are engaging in breath play at very low levels of activity and not tempting the fates by immediate repeat performances.

Jay's whole point - and I for one agree with him - is that breath play is great and perfectly safe right up until the moment's it's not - and then you are in a world of shit.



Jnj -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/2/2006 9:21:30 PM)

Critical Notes on Jay Wiseman's Articles (I believe the author is Kathrin Passig)



Chaingang -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/3/2006 12:26:48 AM)

Actually, all that does is question the existence of Wiseman's specific data set - it doesn't proffer an alternative data set because there isn't one in my view. Further the "notes" are pointedly apologetic about the available data set which I have already allowed deals mainly in autoerotic asphyxia and those causes involving other trauma like the police choke-hold - emergency type cases all! But at least that data set actually exists. Where's the data set showing us all how safe this asphyxia play actually is?

Take this quote: "The mentioned fatality in Houston was caused by negligence, as were all other cases of accidents with partner I could find."

Well, someone died - what would we call it but negligence unless we were to assume actual motive behind the act of purposefully choking someone to death? Within the context of BDSM play we call it accidental or negligent - but let's not ignore the fact that people are intentionally choking each other without any real reason to do so except some possible thrill-seeking. Is our only test to be the perpetrator's ultimate intention of bringing pleasure rather than death? Allow me to turn this around:

How do you non-negligently choke someone to death? Where are the breath play "experts" that we may learn from them how to do it correctly and perfectly safely?

I will simply restate: breath play is perfectly safe right up until the moment when it isn't. There are no known methods of monitoring someone's condition and there is no known 100% effective method of resuscitating someone when things go wrong. People have been known to die engaging in this practice even within the context of BDSM play - there is no discounting that simple fact just because it is further perceived to be negligent or accidental. Again I will turn it around: Why discount ANY cases occurring within a BDSM scenario? What's the motive there? Sorry, but those cases count too.

So again, I call bullshit.

This is edge play and people practicing it do so entirely at their KNOWN risk.




Jnj -> RE: Asphyxiaphilia (breath play) safety (4/3/2006 12:57:34 AM)

Chaingang, I never claimed that it was safe.  Actually, if you will refer to my earlier post in this thread, I specifically said that it was not.  There is no data set that claims that breathplay is safe, simply because it isn't. 

I believe that the point that the author of this article is trying to make is an important one --   although Jay's information is generally considered sound, he makes comments which basically work as scare tactics instead of letting the data that there is stand on its own, and thus to a lot of breath play afficianados, it loses its validity.  I agree that folks should be educated  about breathplay (which is why my owner and I teach at conventions and clubs extensively on this topic), and should carefully weigh the dangers against the rewards.    However, people have a difficult time doing so if they can't separate fact from fiction.

Jerith



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