RE: British elections, have a say.

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 1:14:40 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

1st question, no.
2nd point...while constant changes to how crime is measured by the police produce comment, all other measurements agree...nobody seriously disputes that crime has fallen a lot over the last 13 years.

Labour have filled the Lords with their cronies, I dont see any reform if all that has happened is more of the same.

As for the crime figures, I am not sure how you can say nobody seriously disputes crime has fallen. What is your basis for this, given the constant challenges to Labours figures in the media. Labours premise of a reduction in the figures is based soley on the British Crime Survey, which doesnt include crimes committed by under 16s. So according to Gordon, a burglary committed by someone under 16 isnt a burglary. Can you not see the nonsense in this notion ?

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 1:26:39 PM

numuncular

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I dont see how prison population increasing can possibly be a sign of anything other than an over-reliance on prison sentancing,I don't have anything like the grasp of maths required to express this but my instinct tells me that for the prison population to decrease at all would require an unprecedented and unrealistic drop in crime.
It always strikes me as a bit wierd that crime figures are so politicised anyway, unless theirs real and deliberate corrosion of society by the government I don't see how crimes commited are the fault of the state... detection and conviction they may be responsibe for but well, I've never got it.

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 1:28:05 PM

DCWoody

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There has been really very significant reforms involving the house of lords, feel free to check wikipedia or something.

The media would have you believe 10,000 people get raped every day, there is a difference between the impression newspapers give and reality. There are constant issues with how crime is measured, but this was the same under the cons....I do not know of any respected institution or organisation of any kind that disputes the large fall in crime under labour. I have not even heard the conservatives....surely the most likely source....deny it, they always switch to talking about one specific type of crime which happens to have risen that year....

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 1:31:02 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: numuncular

I dont see how prison population increasing can possibly be a sign of anything other than an over-reliance on prison sentancing,I don't have anything like the grasp of maths required to express this but my instinct tells me that for the prison population to decrease at all would require an unprecedented and unrealistic drop in crime.
It always strikes me as a bit wierd that crime figures are so politicised anyway, unless theirs real and deliberate corrosion of society by the government I don't see how crimes commited are the fault of the state... detection and conviction they may be responsibe for but well, I've never got it.

I suspect the main reason is that it's an easy way for the opposition to have a go at the party in government at any given time. It's also a tactic particularly beloved of the Tories for some reason. As you will recall, during the '80s and the early '90s, there was almost no violent crime, crimes of property or fraud taking place anywhere in the UK due to the remarkable success of Michael Howard and his predecessor*'s efforts as Home Secretary...

*(Frankie Howard, obviously.)

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 1:36:42 PM

DCWoody

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Government can (and does) do many things to try to cut crime, differening sentencing regimes are believed by many to make a difference, the effectiveness of rehabilitation and the severity of the potential punishment which might put some off a life of crime. Increased police powers & surveilance in recent years, while not great for civil liberties....have helped keep crime down(presumably, or just coincidence). Keeping the economy stable (stably decent)....will keep crime low, something lab had done unprecedentedly well before the banking crisis...and propaganda is used a lot these days too....think about the anti-drink driving adverts, the rewards for turning in benefit cheats....
And, the laws themselves....with the legality or not of prostitution/drugs making a big difference.....and more than just crime being lower because certain crimes are now legal.

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 1:53:16 PM

Aneirin

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The report is a bit old, but it continues, over 3000 new laws brought into being since Bliar was elected, roughly equating to one new offence for every day of his office ;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blairs-frenzied-law-making--a-new-offence-for-every-day-spent-in-office-412072.html

But as I say it has continued as this report says ;

http://www.fr33agents.com/2040/over-4000-new-criminal-offences-since-labour-came-to-power-in-%E2%80%9897/

Maybe that goes some way to explain why the prisons are so densely populated, and crime detection figures are up.

I suspect though, the real crimes, those tough cookies that have always been there are still there and just as prolific as ever.

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 2:06:09 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

There has been really very significant reforms involving the house of lords, feel free to check wikipedia or something.

The media would have you believe 10,000 people get raped every day, there is a difference between the impression newspapers give and reality. There are constant issues with how crime is measured, but this was the same under the cons....I do not know of any respected institution or organisation of any kind that disputes the large fall in crime under labour. I have not even heard the conservatives....surely the most likely source....deny it, they always switch to talking about one specific type of crime which happens to have risen that year....

The Home Offices own figures, in the link I gave you, dispute Labours claims. Labour have even reported the Conservatives for using figures which Labour disputes. I dont see how you can say that the Conservatives agree with the figures, in light of all this.

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 2:09:32 PM

DCWoody

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I'm beginning to think this discussion isn't going anywhere, so let's leave it....anyone interested can easily check it out for themselves. :)

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/6/2010 3:42:13 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

I'm beginning to think this discussion isn't going anywhere, so let's leave it....anyone interested can easily check it out for themselves. :)

It is okay to differ. I suspect if the Conservatives get in, the figures will be looked into.

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/7/2010 4:19:30 AM

LadyEllen

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What are the thoughts regarding the whole immigration thing I wonder? It seems to be an important matter according to the media and the parties seem to be falling over one another in trying to be "tough on immigration, tough on the causes of immigration".

Personally I think its all ridiculous. We cant stop anyone from the EU coming here and with our universities facing funding cuts we're not going to be turning foreign students who pay full whack away. As for the rest, we now have a system akin to that in Australia, so you cant just walk in unless youre a brain surgeon. And the whole bogus marriage route is being closed down, we're taking fewer asylum seekers than ever and deporting more failed ones than ever. Illegal immigration is something we're tackling but by its nature its impossible to know how successful we are.

Meanwhile, to hear some people speak, you'd think that coachloads of immigrants were being disgorged on every high street in Britain for hour after hour.

There was great pressure on public services a year or so ago when we had a tidal wave of central Europeans here I'd grant. But the majority of them have now gone home or moved on to where their wages are worth something. Of note in that is that they were only here for work that anyone native could have done but for the benefits trap, they paid taxes and it was the central government that failed to properly fund local public services to cope with the influx.

I also cant help but think that it isnt immigration as a numbers game that is the concern supposedly in the electorate's mind. Rather that its immigration as a cultural game and one in which the concern is with the ghettoisation of neighbourhoods by existing as well as incoming communities, and the perceived subversion of British culture that leads to.

E

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/7/2010 4:27:17 AM

DCWoody

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You think that the figures (all the figures)....under labour, are so suspect as to actually deny crime has fallen....but that the conservatives would be honest?

Re: immigration, it's the cultural thing which seems to be stiring up most action...it was the most protested thing in 2009 I reckon....which is to some extent a numbers thing as well as just the ghetto thing, but personally I reckon we're already well mixed with the rest of the world....it's the problems with social services, housing etc....I'd be more worried about.

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RE: British elections, have a say. - 4/7/2010 5:14:48 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

*Fast Reply*

Any results in yet? What would be a good source to follow the returns?

Nevermind, I realize that the election wouldn't occur for another month.... what would be a good source then to follow?

There's normally something on the BBC website, Thadius.
If you can do a podcast of Radio 4 from there, they often cover it overnight.

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Post #: 52