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Why do people do this? - 4/28/2010 8:21:22 AM

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Why does this pee me off?

I dont believe there is such a beast as a switch either,I could never sub,I dont need the experience of submission to better Domme,and you put yourself out there as a sub you should never had to try to be in control, for that I am sorry that we have this riff-raff that dont know the first thing about healthy relationships, or their role in one. Move on and good luck.......

And this

I stay out of the "Switch" Forum because life has taught me to suspect their motives. IE, given the opportunity, every switch I've known (and I stress *I've known*) would much prefer to submit. And when they can't find a Dom/me, they at least keep their hand in the lifestyle by putting themselves out there as a Dom/me (mostly Dom)

What do you think about people who think like this?
This is what I think. I think its like sitting with someone who scoffs homosexuality. They usually scoff it because there's an underlying fear.
I also think it can come from someone who has very little knowledge and a closed mind to learning. Its a kind of ladder climbing. 'I'm so much purer than you. Look at you..............-> your just a con man/woman, confused, lost, indecisive not REAL'

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/28/2010 8:52:49 AM

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It took me a couple of moments to realise that the two block paras were quotes of other people - unless I'm still confused - and if so then sorry for being a jackass!

I agree with you that it's a little frustrating when people say switches don't exist - I've known quite a few, although I don't really identify as one - so shouldn't really be cluttering up the ask a switch forum - soz!

The second person does caveat what they say by pointing out that it's *their* experience, and I think the phenomenon of subs pretending to be switch, or dom is a real one - so part of me thinks 'fair play'

I don't think it's like sniggering at homosexuality, more like sniggering at bisexuality - something I've known my gay and les friends do from time to to time - so while I agree there may be an element of fear to the cynicism, the cynics may also have had the negative experiences described in yr second quote.

[with apols for typos - written on the choo from an iPhone ]

(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: Why do people do this? - 4/28/2010 10:06:04 AM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

What do you think about people who think like this?

I believe people are entitled to their opinions. I also believe that I'm entitled to think people with such opinions are imbeciles, and then I ignore them and go along my merry way.

~stef

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/28/2010 1:15:54 PM

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I really don't have problems with people doing what they want-it's sex-and sex makes no sense. But then you have "that doesn't turn me on" in the mix..........and people start going-"this person likes things I don't like-and that is beyond my comfort zone."

And start trying to convince others that -"Well this is just WRONG how can you be so mean as to destroy my world view in my secure little happy place?'

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/29/2010 1:56:48 AM

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The thing is, I haven't met anyone in rl who has clearly stated to my face that switches don't exist or that switches are confused.
This seems to be an online mentality.
I know it shouldn't offend me but it does. Its directly saying that I am not happy, I am not real and that I am really a wolf in sheeps clothing. I don't actually care if people believe I'm not dominant or submissive enough but to wash away my relationship as a dysfunctional nonsense does insult me.

If I came on here as a vanilla person and said something like 'Dominant and submissive people don't really exist. They are just confused beasts that need to get a life' I would get a combination of reactions but none of them would be positive. Some people would think it was a wind up, others would be insulted, some would laugh and some would get angry.
We couldn't expect a vanilla person to even start to understand but we would put their opinion down to ignorance and prejudice.

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/29/2010 9:30:30 AM

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I actually have met people in the flesh who claim that switches do not exist. In fact, my own Hubby/Master does not like the term 'switch.' He's perfectly okay with me subbing to him and dominating someone else, but darn it, that's not switching. Apparently. Still, he doesn't look down on or scoff at anyone who titles themselves as such.

The public derision, I think, is a form of bullying. It's putting someone else down to make yourself feel better. I can't speak to the motives of the folk you quoted, but I do see it as insecurity in general.

What do I think of these people? I think they don't understand or don't care to understand. I'm not interested in arguing about it.

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/29/2010 10:39:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

What do you think about people who think like this? ....

I think it's unsettling for people when they can't give someone a label and put them in a neat little box. To be honest, I no longer try to explain myself...either they get me or they don't. If they don't, either they try to understand and are open to learning or they aren't. Either way, I still am around and still who I am.

As for online vs offline...I've only recently had a couple people offline that I've met say they "don't believe in switches" like they're talking about the tooth fairy or santa. It makes me laugh.

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/29/2010 2:02:12 PM

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Hey allthatjaz, yet another great question, and like a few others it took me a second to get it. Mainly because I see you post in the switch forum so often. ^.^

Anyway, I too have been told to my face that switches don't exist. In fact I was collared to one for a bit. After a while he realized that I wasn't kidding, and that I wasn't "just" a submissive. I use the "just" but I'm certainly not trying to offend anyone who is, I just can't think of any other way to describe it. I find a lot more of it on here, and that some of the people I've talked to (more online than in face to face) with that mind frame. It's kind of hard for people to sit face to face with me and tell me I don't exist. Usually that is their first experience with me as a switch. ^.^ Nothing sets me from sub to Domme mode like telling me I don't exist. :D It's like the bumper sticker I saw once says: "Tell me I can't, I'll show you I can".

I'm also under the guidance that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and that opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I'm also one with the notion that your opinion is exactly that, yours, and that if you know for a fact that your opinion is in direct opposition to mine then you should probably let sleeping dogs lie....or welcome my ignore list with open arms. I don't ignore everyone, some people get a break for stupidity...but not often. ;P

By All.
Lil Bit

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/29/2010 3:17:56 PM

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I had to laugh to myself when I came back to the forums.
I have just been on another forum where a woman is upset about being called a prostitute because she's a pro Domme. I remember in my early pro Domme days how that used to upset me too but how I eventually just laughed it off.
I have only switched in the past two years of my life and its early days for me yet. I think I'm going through a similar anguish that I went through when I started pro Domming.
Of course there is a difference. As a pro Domme I accepted I was prostituting myself (eventually) trying to accept that some people have such prejudice towards switchery just feels hurtful when I am so blissfully happy. Its like walking into a room, laughing and enjoying yourself before someone standing next to you says 'your not really happy are you?'

I need to laugh it off and ignore it.

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/29/2010 6:46:26 PM

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as a switch, i'm offended by most doms and subs alike even though i have my own stigma about certain subs.

i'm comfortable with this and part of the reason i declare myself as switch is because i could never be happy in a relationship as a submissive with a dom, and could never really be happy with a submissive. not saying it's not fun, or we wouldn't connect on a different level, but yeah, it's an incompatibility.

you should doubt switches- largely because you should doubt Everyone's intentions. not saying you should guard yourself to the point where you're labeled as having trust issues, but at the same time just because someone is ideal physically and they are your ideal preference(dom/sub/sw) does not mean their overall personality will click with you at all- and even worse, everyone has secrets.

further than that you can take it into a realm with extensive fettishes- i have serious reservations about anyone who has certain fetishes. for instance, don't ever call me "daddy". it's creepy.

and with all that in consideration, my biggest pet peeve is someone who insists on their role as submissive, dominant, master or slave dragging their status outside of the home. if anyone ever calls me a bitch in public or tries to make me do something for them just to watch, i will not tollerate it. you might say, "well, that's your preference" but i disagree- i'm extremely uncomfortable when i'm around people that are on leashes or where one is dominating versus menial tasks, such as dishes, etc. i see that shit as pure laziness and have no consideration for dominant/submissive roles. if it's housework and one party is doing it solely, i am offended.

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/30/2010 1:13:57 AM

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I don't think you should get offended with other peoples dynamics subversed. You are just not like them. You don't crave what they crave.
Its like latex. Some people just feel comfortable and more whole by wearing latex shorts under their work suits and getting changed into a gimp suit when they get home. They meet up and talk on forums to other latex led people. They swap ideas, praise one another and show a snobbery towards those who just don't know how to wear latex properly.
I don't see these forums as any different. If you put yourself out as a dominant then the competition is on and its the same with submission. Of course some of these people are not going to understand us and a few will brush us off because we aren't real enough for them.
Personally I feel fairly vanilla on this site. I have probably dominated to greater depths than many dominants on here and I have been told that my submission is very special by the one person that is important to me and yet I don't feel the need to be a dominant or be a submissive.
I often read from dominants and submissives and think to myself 'what fucking world are these people living in' I have become less understanding as time goes on and thats why I don't think I will be coming to sites like this for much longer.

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/30/2010 6:04:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

I don't think you should get offended with other peoples dynamics subversed. You are just not like them. You don't crave what they crave.
Its like latex. Some people just feel comfortable and more whole by wearing latex shorts under their work suits and getting changed into a gimp suit when they get home. They meet up and talk on forums to other latex led people. They swap ideas, praise one another and show a snobbery towards those who just don't know how to wear latex properly.
I don't see these forums as any different. If you put yourself out as a dominant then the competition is on and its the same with submission. Of course some of these people are not going to understand us and a few will brush us off because we aren't real enough for them.
Personally I feel fairly vanilla on this site. I have probably dominated to greater depths than many dominants on here and I have been told that my submission is very special by the one person that is important to me and yet I don't feel the need to be a dominant or be a submissive.
I often read from dominants and submissives and think to myself 'what fucking world are these people living in' I have become less understanding as time goes on and thats why I don't think I will be coming to sites like this for much longer.

Hi Maria,

I wanted to comment on and question the bolded parts of the quote above. Just a warning...I'm on painkillers from surgery so if this sounds like a bit of a ramble and makes no sense, please forgive me.

The part about not being "real enough" for some people. This always make me laugh, the idea that there even IS a real enough in regards to wiitwd. I haven't been exploring this for as long as some of the people I've met offline or those who I read about online but I do believe that when it comes down to the barest of bones, you're talking about a relationship between two or more people. That's it. What makes that "real enough", imo, is if those involved can make it work beyond the play.

You mentioned not feeling the need to be dominant or submissive...could that be because you've found your relationship groove? I've read the posts you've made regarding your relationship with your partner and what I see is two individuals who love and respect each other...just as they are...and are secure enough to explore and experience life without needing to always assign a name/role to their actions/dynamic. Who needs labels when it works?

As for wondering what world some of the people who post on sites like CM live in....I think it's usually the world of their own imagination. Not all, mind you, but more than enough to make me wonder sometimes if maybe I am missing something and maybe I did get it wrong....and then I wake up. ;-)
I have a supervisor at work that tells me one of the problems I have is that I expect common sense from people and get annoyed when I see people doing the same nonsense over and over. He tells me I need to just remember that common sense isn't so common and then it would be easier for me to deal with the craziness. I've stepped back from this and another kink related board for that very reason...I have little to no tolerance for bs. For all the joking about there NOT being "one true way", I read more than my fair share of one way posts.
I used to think I could learn things here, and while there are people who's posts I enjoy reading, those posts are becoming fewer and far between.
Maybe it's not just MY tolerance level. I still find it annoyingly amusing when you read someone bashing switches for the cliche things...can't make up their minds/players/not "real"....as though there was a rule book.

I enjoy reading your posts and have actually learned many things...thank you for that. Sorry for the ramble/rant but this thread has had me thinking, a dangerous thing indeed.

Carrie

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 4/30/2010 6:38:47 AM >

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/30/2010 7:10:44 AM

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Thanks carrieO

A relationship groove is a good way of putting it.
This is something I recently added to a journal entry
'I often observed dominant men and their interactions. I felt nothing…no I lie, I felt there was no symmetry, no energy.
When I met Steve I didn’t immediately see a dominant side, that came later but not through domination. What I saw was a mirror of myself. I saw consistency, insistency and a determination not to compromise. I saw it in his very nature and felt ultimately comfortable with that.
I often laugh at who I am now, how I have changed and at where this long journey has taken me and I know that if it all fell apart tomorrow then I would leave all of this lifestyle behind me. Not because I could no longer be dominant but because I know that I could never find happiness and contentedness like this again. I could never find another 'me'

Of course we don't need labels for who we are and what we are about. On this site you have only a few options. If I could have the option that said 'everything in between' then I would of put that. This site insists that we label ourselves and I think that's a great pity. The nearest thing I can link myself to is a switch but the word switch hardly defines what my
relationship is about.

I see so much one up-man-ship here. Dominants desperately trying to prove they are dominants. Dominants trying to show the world that they are made of firmer stuff and all I see is a bunch of fluff. I see so much acting and so little realism. I'm not going to say the same about the submissives that post here because to be honest I see the best and most sensible posts coming mainly from them.
There are people on the boards I like and respect. Sensible people with sensible minds but the more shit I read the more it feels like I am reading a badly written fairytale.

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/30/2010 7:12:29 AM

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I have to say I was sad when I read you were thinking about not being around CM much longer Maria. I love reading your posts, and you've got a great head for sensible honest advice that doesn't come across as judgmental or arrogant. If the lunatics of CM (and I do understand that they are becoming the majority here, knowing that from the size of my blocked list) drive you off, they win that much more. I have to take my breaks from here now and again because the bs gets to me, but I keep coming back hoping that my questions and my answers to other people's questions help someone not be so.....unintelligent (PR version...lol). I think that when it really boils down to it, any label given by the bdsm lifestyle has their own stigmas and negative stereotypes to go along with it. True it seems like switches get the most volatile reactions from others, I know a few people who think all submissives are doormats, spineless idiots who need the leash in order to survive. I know people who think Doms are just egotistical psychopaths who are control freaks and couldn't survive without a sub to do everything for them. Just like with the switch stereotypes, there are those in any group that will fit, even like a glove, to the negative aspects of the stereotypes. But those are generally a minority. Most submissives I know can function without their Dom indefinitely, just as most Doms I know could infact survive without their sub. Some times the switch label gets used when people don't know what they are, they can't make up their mind even though they want to. Some but not all.

And Carrie, I like the way you think. From reading her other posts, I too have come to think theirs is a relationship to be admired. :D

I've come to find out, especially lately, and it might be the pregnancy making me hormonal, but for a "deviant" or "alternative" lifestyle, there sure are a lot of judgmental people in bdsm. x.x

Lil Bit

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/30/2010 8:05:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Of course we don't need labels for who we are and what we are about. On this site you have only a few options. If I could have the option that said 'everything in between' then I would of put that. This site insists that we label ourselves and I think that's a great pity. The nearest thing I can link myself to is a switch but the word switch hardly defines what my
relationship is about.

I see so much one up-man-ship here. Dominants desperately trying to prove they are dominants. Dominants trying to show the world that they are made of firmer stuff and all I see is a bunch of fluff. I see so much acting and so little realism. I'm not going to say the same about the submissives that post here because to be honest I see the best and most sensible posts coming mainly from them.
There are people on the boards I like and respect. Sensible people with sensible minds but the more shit I read the more it feels like I am reading a badly written fairytale.

I hope you didn't think I was implying you needed to label anything. It goes back to the groove-thing...you kind of move beyond. I do agree that the limitations in regards to label choices here are annoying.
I'd like to have the choice to be vanilla with raspberry swirls and chocolate chips!

I'm always saying to a friend of mine here something to the effect that if you want to get a glimpse of sensible reality and sometimes dominant personality read what some of the submissives have written. There is a lot of the "fractured fairytale" thing going on, though, when I read journals and many of the "out there" posts and I do see the bravdo you mention, from all sides.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelslilbit
And Carrie, I like the way you think. From reading her other posts, I too have come to think theirs is a relationship to be admired. :D

I've come to find out, especially lately, and it might be the pregnancy making me hormonal, but for a "deviant" or "alternative" lifestyle, there sure are a lot of judgmental people in bdsm. x.x

Thank you...likewise! Yeah, it's nice to have a good example of a relationship that actually works.

Judgement is everywhere...even among the most supposed-liberal of groups. A very alternative friend of mine jokes about how she and I are just waiting for the mothership to return. Sounds flakey but I understand her point when it comes to being judged.

BTW...congrats and best wishes!

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RE: Why do people do this? - 4/30/2010 9:53:37 AM

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Thank you both of you for such lovely compliments.

Steelslilbit, I'm never quite sure what to make of the people who have such negative reactions towards switches. Fortunately its not that many. Submissives will often state that they just couldn't do it or don't get it and I can go along with that but the worst reactions often come from Dominant men that are well settled in on the boards and have a bit of a following.
Is it to re-iterate their power as a dominant?!? If this is the case then I see it as a huge character flaw. Perhaps I'm being a little harsh but the only other answer I can think of is they just haven't been around long enough to understand that it often can and does work.
I have seen some awful and unsuccessful swithery going on and perhaps this is what these guys have seen but I have seen some amazing relationships develop with switch couples.
Many congratulations btw on your new bump!

carrieO, I didn't think you were implying I needed a label and I apologize for coming across that way

Thats a great bit of advice you give your friend!
Looks like I'm sticking up for the subs today lol. I tend not to read journals. Perhaps I should.... or perhaps on the other hand I should stay well away

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RE: Why do people do this? - 5/1/2010 1:19:13 AM

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I agree with stef. I spent a lot of my life trying to live by other people's standards and I'm still dealing with the after-effects. Today it's a universal respect for individuality, my own and that of other people and my life is so much simpler as a result.

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And that is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late.'
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RE: Why do people do this? - 5/1/2010 6:13:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigreetsa

I agree with stef. I spent a lot of my life trying to live by other people's standards and I'm still dealing with the after-effects. Today it's a universal respect for individuality, my own and that of other people and my life is so much simpler as a result.

This post reminds me of a Barry Lopez quote...

"Diversity is not a characteristic of life; it is a condition necessary for life...like air and water."

Without individuality and diversity, what a boring...and sad...world this would be. Thank you for the reminder.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 5/1/2010 6:14:43 AM >

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RE: Why do people do this? - 5/1/2010 8:31:39 AM

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~applauds for CarrieO~ I like that quote a lot. And I might have to swipe it. ^.^

Tigreesta, I know a lot about where you are coming from. I did the same thing in the beginning. I don't know how much I'm still dealing with the after effects, but I do know that for a while I was caged not by my Masters wanting of such, but by the walls I had built around myself because of other people's expectations of me (both in the vanilla world and bdsm). It made it harder to function in the outside world, but in the end I know now that it made it harder to willingly submit to the Masters I've been collared to. Breaking free of those expectations may very well have made me the switch I am today, because in the end I decided it was going to be about what I wanted and needed and felt, not how others thought I should want and need and feel (especially when those "others" were people who weren't very important in my life).

Subversed, I have to agree with you on the "daddy" fetish. I'm really happy for the people who are happy in those relationships, but the idea of it makes my skin crawl. I've always made it clear, and even with my vanilla bfs, that they are never to utter the phrase "who's your daddy". That gets you a one way arse whooping and a boot in the arse out of my life. ~shudders~

Allthatjaz, you are most welcome for the compliment. Finding people who are intelligent enough to hold a conversation with is getting harder and harder these days. As for dealing with the Dominants and submissives who have been, sometimes, vulgar about their opinions on switches.....it's not now hard to deal with people I don't know well who think that. "Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind". I don't remember who said that, I want to say it's either Dr Suess or Marylin Monroe but ~chuckles~ I honestly don't remember. Either way it's true and I hold this very close to me. The people who care about me want what is going to make me the happiest (so long as it's not self destructive). They don't care that I can be a pain slut, that I like to cane my bf, or that I've got a shoe fetish that would leave me broke always if I had any less self control. These are the people who I have a really hard time dealing with that attitude. A Master I was collared to flat out told me to my face that switches don't exist, so there was no way I was one.... and besides, I was too good a submissive to be able to be a switch. After all HE didn't see it in me. I was absolutely crushed, and what made it worse was that I didn't know how to talk to him about it. His opinion was so strong I knew he figured the discussion was over. Unfortunately what happened was exactly what I knew would. There was a wedge between us that wasn't resolved, and I started hearing the Dominant voice in my head a lot louder. He did eventually come to see that I wasn't joking and that this was something we were going to have to deal with, but by then it was already too late. How I saw him had been irreversibly damaged, and the idea of turning me into a Pro Domme to release the need I had wasn't going to change that either. I watched in horror as the three relationships I had helped build, and the home I had become apart of, destroyed itself before my eyes. This was a poly house and I had the most wonderful slave sister in the entire world. Her and I remain close, thankfully, but he and I pretty much don't talk. And it's better that way I think. He is hurt and upset that I left the household, and I still can't look at him in quite the same way. The trust between us is gone. He said before I left, that there would be a place for me in his house if I ever wanted to return.....and while I thanked him and said I'd never forget it, I know I won't ever go back. I loved what we had while we had it, but there are some things that, like a picture once crumpled, won't ever be perfect again.

Sometimes Doms flaunt their "knowledge" of switches" to appear more Dominant, sometimes I think it's an insecurity issue. Sometimes it's because all they have ever seen is a submissive who just likes to push their boundaries, and sometimes it's because they've never seen anything like it in their Dom life. To me, the why of people doing it isn't important. I know first hand the damage having such a ridged mindset can cause. I would never in my life wish upon another what happened to the three of us, not even someone who I despised with my whole heart. It's not the why, it is the THAT they do it that matters to me. Which is why I get sooo upset when I'm reading the boards and people are being completely judgmental about others. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone (and FYI, I'm not christian either, I'm wiccan but I LOVE that quote so much).

_____________________________

i'll try anything once, twice if i like it.

If you wanna know you better ask, and if i don't want to answer i won't.

Offical Language: Caryn-ese
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(in reply to CarrieO)

RE: Why do people do this? - 5/1/2010 12:17:33 PM

Posts: 29
Joined: 4/16/2010
Status: offline

quote:

Why does this pee me off?

Yeah, but people like you who switch don't really understand true D/s.

I guess i should be but i'm unusually excited..... chuckles.....someone took the time and pretty decently sent me a note short as it was

quote:

What do you think about people who think like this

Being infatuated with my own verbosity and giddy.....

i got noticed sent this

Nonsense. I can easily argue that by exploring both roles, and being familiar with the head space and psychological experience of both dominance and submission, I can get a better grasp of the dynamic of power exchange--better, than say the person who is familiar only with one part of it. Nevertheless, we as human beings all share psychological traits in common, while I may not feel exactly what you feel my understanding of what it's like to be submissive or dominate is enhanced, in turn helps me to create an environment where I can put someone in the head space I want in either case.

(in reply to Steelslilbit)

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