RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 3:29:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

As opposed to "Jesus is the son of God" or "Muhammad is the final prophet" which requires blind faith to not only accept it but to perpetuate it?

Well, I think that there are people who take both of those things on "blind faith" in the context that you and Steel are supposing.

I also think that some people can go through an intellectual and critical thinking process and come to the conclusion that the probabilities are close enough, that on the balance, it's just as likely that Jesus was "the Son of God" and Muhammad was "the final prophet".

Whether or not you wish to agree with them or not is immaterial.

Going through such a process would still lead to the "faith" part, but I wouldn't call it "blind faith".

Firm

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 3:38:46 PM

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No Firm, he did not address the issue. IB stopped at spirituality. Few people here would disagree with him if that's what we were discussing, including me. The question was, "Is religious belief based on blind faith?" (And this does not even address the OP, but it's still a worthy discussion.) You, and a small handful of others obfuscate the issue by inferring that spirituality, and meditation, and experience are somehow equivalent to religion. They are not. I'm sorry, but they are just not.

<edited to add, you can ignore this post. You just gave a suitable answer while I was typing this. My apologies.>

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 5/5/2010 3:40:27 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 3:45:39 PM

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This is a general question, not specifically to brainiacsub.

People seem to be defining all faith as blind faith. What would you (all) see as the distinction between faith and blind faith?

Honest question.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 3:49:37 PM

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quote:

You mean that in order to supply a definition of blind faith he was also required to provide a definition of definition?

No. I meant that dismissing it as "get a dictionary" belies that definition is a common and valid mood of inquiry.

For example--if I say "We need good government," you could reasonable say "What do you mean by 'good government'?" I then wouldn't say "get a dictionary," but rather expound on what qualities I see as good government and my reasons.

In short, it's asking for the argument that goes with the claim.

(in reply to rulemylife)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 3:52:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Going through such a process would still lead to the "faith" part, but I wouldn't call it "blind faith".

If faith is qualified and has disclaimers, then it isn't really faith in the religious sense at all, which is an all or nothing proposition rather than something where you can pick and choose the bits you like and ignore the rest. All religions come with a package of stuff that you're obliged to accept in toto, or forget about following that religion if you balk at any of that.

(This may be germane to MM's question as well.)

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 3:54:44 PM

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It's also worth noting that ALL arguments start with assumptions. While I wouldn't argue those are taken on "faith," they do have to be accepted for the argument to proceed, that that seems to fit the rather broad definition of "faith" some are using here.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 3:57:36 PM

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My own feeling is that all faith is a matter of accepting unexamined and untested assumptions, so there isn't really any distinction blind faith and other sorts: if it isn't blind, then it isn't faith either.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 4:01:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

My own feeling is that all faith is a matter of accepting unexamined and untested assumptions, so there isn't really any distinction blind faith and other sorts: if it isn't blind, then it isn't faith either.

Gotta run, but what about this earlier example?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

An "informed faith" wouldn't be faith.

My friend Joe usually comes through. I don't know where he is this time, but I have faith he'll come through again.

Not empirically provable before the fact. But an informed faith.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 4:02:47 PM

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Faith is simply beliving in something unknown.

If one follows a blind man both will fall into a hole eventually.

I do not follow blind people and I prefer to go through life with my eyes open.

This is a man's world and I know from experiece that most men lie cheat and steal. I don't follow them either.

I believe that taking money from blind people is wrong. Religious leaders steal from the blind. They are as corrupt as Goldman Sachs.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 4:29:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

This is a general question, not specifically to brainiacsub.

People seem to be defining all faith as blind faith. What would you (all) see as the distinction between faith and blind faith?

Honest question.

Faith can be tempered by doubt, humility, a healthy skepticism, and openness to alternative possibilities. Faith can allow for change and growth.

As to the opposition the OP posits between God and scientists, I believe this is false.

Logos (rational thought, science) and mythos (art, spirituality, religion) are two equally valid, valuable and complementary modes of knowing, each with its proper sphere; there's no necessary conflict between faith and science. Confusion of logos and mythos produces that conflict.

Karen Armstrong in The Battle for God notes that "a literal reading of scripture is a modern preoccupation." Prior to the modern era, scripture was considered mythic in nature:

quote:

As Gregory of Nyssa had explained, the three hypostases of Father, Son, and Spirit were not objective facts but simply "terms that we use" to express the way in which the "unnameable and unspeakable" divine nature (ousia) adapts itself to the limitations of our human minds. It made no sense outside the cultic context of prayer, contemplation, and liturgy.

-- The Battle for God, page 69.

Agreed that spirituality and religion are not at all the same thing.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 4:41:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
It's also worth noting that ALL arguments start with assumptions. While I wouldn't argue those are taken on "faith," they do have to be accepted for the argument to proceed, that that seems to fit the rather broad definition of "faith" some are using here.

For example, the scientific enterprise depends on faith that the cosmos is rational and ordered, subject to universal laws discoverable through observation (experiment).

< Message edited by eihwaz -- 5/5/2010 4:43:58 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 4:45:46 PM

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Is it possible to have a system that everyone benefits from using?

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As your desire is, so is your will.
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As your deed is, so is your destiny.
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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 4:53:26 PM

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I do not agree with mythos.

I would not classify art and music with RELIGION.

Religion is many things but it is definetly not art or music.

Religion is a twisted history of people and their twisted ignorance.

It is animal worship and ancestor worship and many other things but is is not ART OR MUSIC.

Music and Art are beautiful gifts that man shares with his fellow man.

Religion is a curse (tax) put on man to collect funds for eternal life.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 5:12:39 PM

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quote:

All religions come with a package of stuff that you're obliged to accept in toto, or forget about following that religion if you balk at any of that.

Would you consider Wicca a religion? They don't have a package that you have to accept. The congregationalists don't either. Their only requirement is that you believe Jesus was the son of God, as written in the bible. I don't know any others off the top of my head, but I bet they are out there.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 5:19:08 PM

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I don't know if wicca is "technicall" a religion. I don't know of any wiccans getting a tax exempt property status .....like a church does.

I suspect that if you ask 20 different wiccans you will get 20 different answers......just like a christian, jew, muslim or mormon.

Why don't wiccans or the followers of Abraham have the same answers????

Put them all in the same room and I can tell you what you will find......WAR!

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 5:55:22 PM

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For those christians that say, BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST.........

I ask, please define CHRIST.

If they can not properly define CHRIST, then I know for a fact that they zombies!!

(in reply to belladevine)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 6:50:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

Is it possible to have a system that everyone benefits from using?

Respiratory? Circulatory?

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 6:51:13 PM

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quote:

Music and Art are beautiful gifts that man shares with his fellow man.

And both are born of ancient religion.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 6:51:13 PM

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If you belong to a religion, what does that mean?

This seems to signify ownership of some sort.

To belong to. Does that mean you are posessed by religion?

(in reply to belladevine)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/5/2010 6:56:12 PM

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Music and Art come from the hearts and minds of men.

PLEASE....you call yourself musicmystery.

The mind is a beautiful thing but it can not yet be fully explained, that is why they call it a mystery.

(in reply to belladevine)

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