herfacechair
Posts: 1046
Joined: 8/29/2004 Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote:
ORIGINAL: herfacechair thompsonx: So are you now saying that knocking an offecer on his azz was wrong and the enlisted man doing the punching should and did go to the brig? No you are just dancing as usual. Are you THAT dense that even after I keep telling you the same thing, you're going to have two different interpretations of what I said? I've constantly shown you this exchange: "Officer issues stupid orders Someone's, or his own, wisdom indicates a better option, but he goes against better judgment. His orders are followed. Soldiers get killed, injured as a result. Information is received that indicated that the mission didn't have to happen. Officer gets knocked on his azz." Both of these are your responses to my showing the above scenario, and challenging you to find where I said what you allegedly said: "So in your military it is ok for enlisted men to punch out officers as long as they actually follow his orders" --thompsonx "So are you now saying that knocking an offecer on his azz was wrong and the enlisted man doing the punching should and did go to the brig?" --thompsonx If anybody is dancing around, it's you. God I love making this braindead poser look stupid with his own words! thompsonx: So far you have not mentioned what happened to the enlisted man who puched out the officer. Was he arrested? Was he charged? Did he go to the brig? I did mention it, if you quit taking me out of context, and read what I'm actually saying, you would've gotten this: "If an officer gets knocked on his ass for making a decision that caused unnecessary death or serious injury; when he should've known better, he increases his chances of getting his ass knocked to the ground. When something like that happens, that officer is going to have a hard time getting the Article 15 process started." -- herfacechair And this: "Things like that happen, and whether this ends up through the legal channels or not is up to the chain of command. But there are other ways to instill discipline, they work from informal verbal, serious verbal, written, corrective training, and so on. Depending on the situation, taking the UCMJ route is an option when all other methods failed. In many of these cases, going straight to taking UCMJ action reflects a failure in leadership." --herfacechair thompsonx: Since you do not condem this action is would follow that you approve and I have not cheered for it to happen either. Does that mean that I don't approve it? The moment you use that kind of statement when talking about me, you automatically become wrong... well since you've been consistently been wrong in this thread, you remain wrong. Unless I jump on here and say whether I do, or don't, support something, you need to work with what I've posted here. You can't answer the question I ask you here with either a "yes" or "no" answer because your statement is a perfect example of inductive fallacy. thompsonx: when you do not tell us what the military did in response to this you imply that it was approved of by command Actually, I did, again: "If an officer gets knocked on his ass for making a decision that caused unnecessary death or serious injury; when he should've known better, he increases his chances of getting his ass knocked to the ground. When something like that happens, that officer is going to have a hard time getting the Article 15 process started." -- herfacechair And this: "Things like that happen, and whether this ends up through the legal channels or not is up to the chain of command. But there are other ways to instill discipline, they work from informal verbal, serious verbal, written, corrective training, and so on. Depending on the situation, taking the UCMJ route is an option when all other methods failed. In many of these cases, going straight to taking UCMJ action reflects a failure in leadership." --herfacechair thompsonx: and by the officer who got the shit kicked out of him. First, what I actually said: "like a senior NCO knocking a LT on his ass for making a stupid decision that got people killed, or almost got them killed, a decision that common sense dictated he shouldn't have made." -- herfacechair Do you see the bolded red statements? This is another example of you using strawman arguments. You take what I say out of context, and addressed what you wanted me to say rather than what I actually said. The officer that got knocked on his ass? If that's the only thing that he gets, after making a stupid decision that got people killed/injured when he knew of a better way; he considers himself lucky. If you were a veteran, you'd know what I'm talking about. This wouldn't seem real strange. thompsonx: One has to ask why would a man risk his carear and the next twenty years of his life in prison for such a thing? If that man had just lost his friends to a stupid decision, when he knew that a better decision would've resulted in his friends still being alive, he wouldn't care. When you're coming off a mission, and you've got adrenalin flowing, added to emotion to losing his friends, one thing is going to matter, at the moment. That officer's chain of command? If an investigation comes down, their assess are on the line. Not only that, but these officers as well as the enlisted guy that did the punching, promised family members back home that they were going to bring their loved one back alive. If the officer tries to go to the chain to initiate Article 15, he's going to have a hard time in this scenario. His chain of command would be like, "really? You're kidding, right?" thompsonx: The way you tell this story it leads one to believe that this is common practice in the army. Is it? Perhaps you could tell us how many times it has happened in the sand box? Wrong, a person reading what I post, with the intentions of understanding what I'm saying, would get this, what I said earlier: "If you look at the trends of my arguments on officers getting their azz knocked on the ground, I'm not saying that this scenario happens all the time; I just indicated that these DO happen in the military, with the enlisted person not being subjected to Article 15. If you were in the military, this wouldn't sound strange to you. My dad, as well as his Vietnam Veteran friends, talked about how officers got their asses knocked to the ground similar to the scenario I describe above." --herfacechair Anybody reading what I said, with the intentions of understanding what I'm saying, wouldn't walk away assuming that this is "common" in the Army. thompsonx: The simple fact is that if one is going to get 20 years in the brig for punching out an officer and the penality for fragging an officer is pretty much the same thing then why would any sane person settle for simply punching out the officer? You're comparing apples and oranges here. I didn't say anything about enlisted people fragging an officer out. I just said something about officers getting knocked on their asses. Given the circumstances that I listed in my scenario, the officer that got punched is going to have a hard time getting an article 15 initiated. He could try pushing it through. But he knows that his decision, that lead to unnecessary deaths, would get placed in the spotlight. He knows that he'd get the negative attention of the dead soldier's loved ones. His case might end up on the Army Times, as well as its sister magazines, for all services to see his piss poor judgment... which lead to unnecessary deaths. Nope. In the scenario I described, the one that got knocked on his ass would wish that this was the only "punishment" that he'll receive. The loved ones of the soldiers that died because of this guy's stupid decision? Most will think that the officer's getting his ass knocked to the ground wouldn't be enough a punishment. Had you been a veteran, this "human nature" effect wouldn't seem strange to you. thompsonx: Once again your logic fails your arguement. The problem isn't with my logic, which is sound. The problem is with your lack of military experience. If you served during the Vietnam War, it's highly unlikely that you ever combat deployed. The scenario that I talk about here? Combat zones, and training environments where people could get killed if someone does something stupid, might see this scenario play out. It's not just the officers that are subject to getting their asses knocked onto the ground. It's not just the enlisted people that'll do the "face punching" either. It's the circumstances, and the human nature involved, that increases the chances that something like this would happen.
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