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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/18/2010 9:38:47 AM

GotSteel

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OK, that makes a lot more sense. But the old testament isn't the same either, here's a chart of the differences:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible#Tanakh.2C_Old_Testament.2C_or_Hebrew_Bible

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/18/2010 11:19:41 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

....why say "Goddamn"? any input or thoughts are welcome.

Forgive me if I am repeating something before I read the thread.

I don't 'believe' in my mother and I say "motherrrrrrrrrrrfucker!!" quite often.

Some variation of 'fuck' is my favourite curse. Annnnnnd not that I don't believe in God, just not the god most people believe in.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/18/2010 2:18:10 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum
i am a Jew for Jesus

That says it all

.

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 3:26:48 AM

MissAsylum

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that says nothing actually :-)

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 3:40:42 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
too many people have died without any help from "god"

How do you know that?

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 7:20:20 AM

Musicmystery

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I just need to accept the basic reality that many people are never going to grasp that the burden of proof belongs to the party making the affirmative, not the negative, claim.

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 7:42:26 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
too many people have died without any help from "god"

Seems to me to be an affirmative claim? So he ought to supply the proof?

Anyway, when seven I made a BIG wish and when nine I 'died', which was necessary to grant and accomplish that wish. (Good that I did not know that. Nor had I ever dreamed that wishes may be granted.)

Cause: BIG wish --> years of preparations by the Divine to set up circumstances necessary to kill me --> two years later: Action. Seemingly by accident I am brought into extreme mortal danger, only seconds and a couple of drops of blood removed from death, and parts of my mind die. The next morning I wake up and to my horror observe that I am 'dead' but that my heart still beats and that my lungs still pump air. -- Consequence and effect: my BIG wish has been granted - If only I had done more with the result. Conclusion: I 'died' by Divine major intervention.

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 7:46:21 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
too many people have died without any help from "god"

Seems to me to be an affirmative claim? So he ought to supply the proof?

I see part of the problem is the ability to distinguish affirmative from negative.

mikey's claim is negative--No god helped these people die.

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:27:52 AM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
too many people have died without any help from "god"

Seems to me to be an affirmative claim? So he ought to supply the proof?

From "Encarta Dictionary" Affirmative... true.... confirming or asserting that something is true.

Seems accurate to me.

Kim

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:31:54 AM

Musicmystery

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Ah....semantics replaces logic.

Language is metaphorical, with a multiplicity of meaning.

But in the logic sense of "affirmative," as is clearly his question here, it's a negative claim, as explained previously--i.e., you can't prove no god was responsible, as that's proving a negative.

The affirmative claim is that God is responsible.

Mikey's statement also complicates matters with a rhetorical hint at an additional moral judgment, that "too many" have died, technically implying that we should do something about this imbalance, but clearly he means this ironically, that no god played a role in any of these deaths.

From here, if you folk want to have at each other about the existence of God or his actions in our lives, have at it.

But you still can't demand someone prove a negative and hide behind logic, because the position in fact defies logic.

Have fun.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/19/2010 8:37:27 AM >

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:37:57 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
mikey's claim is negative--No god helped these people die.

Oh. I thought that he said "too many people have died without any help from "god"."

In any case it is impossible to prove the existence of the Divine, considering that it is 'outside' our universe. To prove anything, causality is required.

I do not quite know what constitutes proof anyway, nor what value it has. Apparently lots of people consider it proven that three airplanes flew into three buildings in 2001. Whereas I know what does not constitute proof and that no such thing - negative - occurred; two of those three planes did not even exist (another negative). Fortunately, according to you, I do not have to prove those negatives.

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:37:58 AM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
too many people have died without any help from "god"

How do you know that?

let me answer a question with a question. For those who believe in "God", if you were in the planes that crashed during 9-11, would you be praying to your "God" to save you...to keep you from dying? i'm sure those people in the planes (not to mention those in the Towers) all prayed for rescue from their "God". seems to me that their prayers and beliefs didn't save them.

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:41:47 AM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that people are asking me for proof of my statements, yet nobody is offering any tangible, logical or even scientific proof that a "God" exists?

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:43:31 AM

cpK69

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Semantics my ass.

Mike made a statement as truth “too many people have died without any help from “god”.

His claim is that too many people die because God does not help them.

You changed his statement.

Kim

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:46:31 AM

Rule

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Talk about the Devil and you will find to have stepped on his tail - one second after my post.

Yes, what about them passengers? Two of them planes did not exist. Did their passengers perhaps also not exist? I would guess that some of them had died months or even perchance up to a year before the event, that others died during the past ten years, and that those who still are alive either bask on some tropical beach with cold drinks served to them, or have important functions in several far away outposts of civilization.

I bet a lot of people are thinking: "I hate my boring / pain-filled existence. God, I wish I did not have to suffer this any more."

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:50:54 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that people are asking me for proof of my statements, yet nobody is offering any tangible, logical or even scientific proof that a "God" exists?

I have not asked you to prove anything. As far as my question is concerned - How do you know that? - it was rhetorical. I hoped that you would realize that you actually do not know whether your statement is correct or not.

< Message edited by Rule -- 5/19/2010 8:51:11 AM >

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:51:06 AM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Talk about the Devil and you will find to have stepped on his tail - one second after my post.

Yes, what about them passengers? Two of them planes did not exist. Did their passengers perhaps also not exist? I would guess that some of them had died months or even perchance up to a year before the event, that others died during the past ten years, and that those who still are alive either bask on some tropical beach with cold drinks served to them, or have important functions in several far away outposts of civilization.

I bet a lot of people are thinking: "I hate my boring / pain-filled existence. God, I wish I did not have to suffer this any more."

did i miss something in the news? when did it come out that two plans didn't exist?

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:52:14 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
mikey's claim is negative--No god helped these people die.

Oh. I thought that he said "too many people have died without any help from "god"."

I explained this above. You are parsing semantics, not logic.

quote:

In any case it is impossible to prove the existence of the Divine, considering that it is 'outside' our universe. To prove anything, causality is required.

I agree. That's my problem when logic was invoked--by you.

quote:

I do not quite know what constitutes proof anyway, nor what value it has. Apparently lots of people consider it proven that three airplanes flew into three buildings in 2001. Whereas I know what does not constitute proof and that no such thing - negative - occurred; two of those three planes did not even exist (another negative). Fortunately, according to you, I do not have to prove those negatives.

In my original post, my point was that many people don't understand basic logic, and this statement shows that you are among those who misunderstand.

In this case, the counterargument isn't to prove no planes flew into the buildings the way you put it. That's why people don't say, as you've characterized it, "Prove they didn't," as that would, indeed, be illogical.

However, there's an existing argument, with evidence, that planes did in fact fly into these buildings. You would then have to show conclusively (1) what is wrong (logically) with the evidence/argument in the affirmative claim (and in so doing, you are making affirmative counterclaims about these errors, vs. "proving a negative") and, ideally, (2) propose and support a better explanation (claim, with evidence), i.e., an affirmative claim that accounts for the observable results more accurately (I'm assuming you at least acknowledge that the buildings were destroyed).

The problem with conspiracy theorists' arguments is typically that they ignore existing arguments/evidence in favor of "what if" alternative possibilities, ignoring both Ockham's razor and the already supported affirmative claims.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/19/2010 8:55:22 AM >

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:52:56 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
did i miss something in the news? when did it come out that two plans didn't exist?

Ah, you consider it proven that they did exist. This demonstrates how utterly worthless proof is, since it has fooled you and millions of others.

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RE: So, if you don't believe in God.... - 5/19/2010 8:52:59 AM

mikeyOfGeorgia

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ask anyone that is religious and i'm sure they will all tell you that they would be praying their colective asses off if they were in that situation. therein lies my proof.

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