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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 3:29:27 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I've actually thought about this a lot (for me). Because "Sadism" used to really scare me and then I realized what a masochist I can sometimes be (and I am speaking of myself, not anyone else) -so I felt if this was a side of me that had "needs" maybe I should try to learn more.

I had a hard time finding info that didn't sound "clinical" to me. I wasn't particularly interested in what the "psychiatric community" might have to say about it - I wanted to know what a person who felt that need thought about why they liked it.

I asked a few people and from what they said, it sounded to me just like regular Dom behavior (in terms of "scene" acts like whipping, caning, etc.) - just taken to a little more extreme part of whatever spectrum exists. Maybe they want (and need) just more of a "good thing" - so if smacking someone with belt feels good, then making someone bleed doing that feels even better, etc.

I ended up thinking they just may need to feel more power and control over their partner, and that's all. I also got rid of my notion that that always means they are not coming from a "caring place" - in fact I think most likely are - but just implementing it differently. And I thought about the fact that - no matter what - individual personalities are going to be the person behind any stereo-type people could have in their minds of what they do - and because of that I am sure there are highly ethical as well as low-life sadists out there.

If anything, I'd hope a sadist would be even more aware of paying attention to their partner's "cues" in a scene if they thought there was a scene coming "close to the edge" so to speak. They might feel an obligation to do just that (Maybe. Hope so).
I have read on these boards messages from people who say they are (and I am sure they know if they are) sadists - and their comments seem as reasonable as anyone else's (to me) - if one considers their perspective.

I really for a long time didn't used to feel that way but I was really curious about this and for some reason just started thinking differently about it - and wish I had a better reason for you than that and could tell you when this "Aha!"moment happened (but I can't). I don't think everyone needs to understand everyone else's kink, etc. either - people have their own individual preferences and everyone's are just fine of course. 

I really do think I understand someone else liking the feeling of control they'd get from making someone cry or really hurting them. I understand it by feeling it's "flip-side" in my gut and in my imagination - and it just doesn't sound "bad" to me anymore. I am not sure how this happened, but they really don't scare me (except in a good way) much anymore (and I can just hear a sadist or two out there right now laughing at this comment maybe saying "don't speak too soon, girlie"....hehe.

I've imagined some people like to be hurt because maybe they get an even bigger thrill or warm fuzzy feeling of care knowing that might require even more trust in their partner (and vice-versa) then if they weren't "going out on a limb". Maybe it's an "acceptance thing"? If it is, there's no shame whatsoever in that as far as my thinking goes (and maybe I have no idea what I am talking about. It's just a thought). Maybe someday someone should write a brilliant enlightening book: "Understanding Sadists 101" - maybe I've looked in the wrong places but I didn't find much in the way of informed opinion (except from sadists themselves, and I only talked to about five).

There are of course exceptions to anyone's pre-conception.  And some of my friends think I am the kind of person who would have made chocolate chip cookies for Adolf Hitler and called him a "big marshmallow". But many of the sadists I've seen converse on the boards here truly seem to be decent poeple to me (and I am not trying to damage anyone's hard-earned rep as a Scaremeister, I am just saying that I personally am much more comfortable with the whole idea than I was previously). Who knows why? I don't. - Susan

I make a caveat here: I have not encoutered (yet) a scene with an avowed sadist (but have no opposition to one particularly). I still think that even if what they want seems more "extreme" - that the SSC "rule" still reigns and imagine they're not going to do much they think another has not agreed to - even if they are pushing limits.

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/8/2006 4:28:25 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 6:01:27 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: acctonthelook
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
As for sadism, it is not synonymous with not respecting limits.  Sometimes that is true, but you can't make a blanket statement that all sadists will not respect your limits and it would be inaccurate to assume that all sadists are abusers.
Knight's kyra

Well I hope I have not assumed anything.  That is why I posted the question to understand it better.  I just have a fear that it will be abusive.  Does that make sense? 


In my opinion you have made some assumptions.  In your first post you say, “To me it seems they ‘hate’ women and just want to use and abuse them.”  This is a universal statement about all sadists hating women and wanting to abuse them and assumptions had to be made if you think that.  If you do not want to make assumptions, then you may want to go back and examine this line of thinking because a few assumptions are being made to get to this statement.  In general, universal statements about anything inherently makes assumptions; I am sure there may be exceptions, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.  I try to avoid universal statements, but I am not always successful at it.

I can understand fear, not really the fear that he would be abusive because I didn’t feel that but the fear of it being too much.  When I was first getting to know my Lord, I was afraid that I would not be able to handle his sadism.  Mostly, I was afraid that in him choosing me, it would limit him in his sadistic desires and he would eventually be unhappy.  After our first night together, he knew I was a masochist; it took quite a few months for me to reconcile that part of me and for me to answer to myself that I enjoyed it and that it wasn’t a form of self-abuse.  It is all in finding what works for you. 

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 6:05:23 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		To My Sweet Submissive: I just re-read your comment and appreciated your very clear and clean explanation of the emotions that are involved for you.
- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/8/2006 6:06:56 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 6:38:01 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: acctonthelook
One thread I came across puts my fears into perspective.
http://www.collarchat.com/When_is_it_too_much%3F/m_315775/tm.htm  IMO she should realize that this relationship is not the right one, purely because he is NOT respecting her hard limits. This is part of 'my' fear also because no matter how much I love someone, I cannot stay a victim to a persons whims.

then perhaps you should make it abundantly clear in your profile and in chatting with potential partners that you identify as a submissive, with hard limits, one of those hard limits being NO Sado-masochism.  there are plenty of folks out there who are NOT sadists.  also, do NOT consider becoming anyone's slave, especially if they are a sadist.
 
this slave responded to that post~perhaps you missed that she identifies in her profile as a "slave" and then goes on to say in her post she doesn't think she would even be a sub if she wasn't in a relationship with this guy. this slave posted this in her response:
 
there are plenty of slaves who do all sorts of "acts" they don't personally enjoy, or would rather not do...it could be a beating, being fucked by someone else, performing tedious tasks such as housework, wearing or doing something humiliating, the list could go on and on...it has always been this slave's assumption that this is to be expected, nay, eagerly anticipated, especially if one is to serve a sadistic Master.  

this slave serves a sadistic Master.  this slave KNEW that, and what it meant, BEFORE becoming committed to Him and eagerly anticipates being of service to whatever sadistic pleasure He has in mind.  this slave IS a sexual masochist, in that SHE receives pleasure from direct application of pain, but the infliction of pain is not the only trick in the sadists bag.  there are plenty of sadistic things Master does that this slave gets no personal thrill from, that, taken out of the context of our relationship, folks would consider "abusive" and this slave the "victim".  Feh.
 
the point this slave is trying desperately to make is this: there IS a difference between a submissive with a hard limit about Sadism that isn't being respected and a slave bound to a sadistic Master in service who gets no personal pleasure from sadistic acts save that he/she is serving his/her Master. 

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 6:43:33 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		To me, my sadistic behavior stems from my really caring for her, I don’t feel the least sadistic toward a woman I don’t care for. I think in my case the wires for love and expression may have been short circuited some how.

It’s the way I enjoy showing my affection but I keep it in check, after all as was stated earlier I don’t want to break my toys.

So for me it’s not all about power though it’s that too, but more about love.

And it’s something that I do occasionally, sort of a special treat.

I think that there are two fundamental reasons or a combination of the two, why she may subject herself to sadistic behavior. One is that she really does like the pain, if it is pain to her. Two is that she cares for him so much that making him happy is worth enduring pain for his pleasure.

For me it’s not at all about hating women but quite the contrary.



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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 6:48:03 AM   
cillydom


Posts: 332
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Oh, and seeking to experience pain just to experience pain may be a mistake. If you decide you don’t like it under scening circumstances it may cloud how you would feel about pain in a loving relationship.

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 9:10:36 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		Its pain but its not pain.
 
Ever been fucked really hard or taken it anally?
 
Ever worked out or run to the point of shaking painful exhaustion?
 
Ever worked in a garden and got thorns in your hands but the smell of the dirt and the rawness and primalness of the experience over rode that and you kept gardening, fucking or running?
 
Thats the sort of pain that folks are talking about, the kind of pain that releases endorphins, makes you go all headspinny and cock-sucky....its and incredible dreamy intoxicating cocktail of sexual arousal and threshold pushing enorphins.....
 
The guy with the tree was not being a very good dom IMO because he was not clued into your comfort level he was just going on an on about his fantasy's, this is a red flag, you can play with advanced players as long as they have the ability to tune into you and stay at your level.
 
But if you were nodding and excited and say ing yess yess yes to him telling that story then you need to very seriously ask yourself why....either A you were being deceptive, or B your were intrigued with it in fantasy, a part of you longed for it....and now that part needs to reconcile with the part of you that was abhored....
 
We all have both parts, as time goes by, you will have more and more safe fun experiences to the point where you ever wondered what you were so scared of...
 
My advice is to get in to your community, play your first time with some one with an impeccable reputation. Looking for your master on line is only going to invite a lot of posers and losers into your life.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 4/8/2006 9:14:43 AM >

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 10:35:36 AM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I would hate to think that I count someone out because of one factor within them that may not always be constant and yet is it?
 
Right now, I'm finding I'm freightened of becoming involved with someone who has such interests.  To me it seems they 'hate' women and just want to use and abuse them. 
 
Can anyone help me better understand their interests and why?  What is at the core of them? 


First off, I would advise you to not get involved with a sadist if you really believe they hate women.  I'd also advise you to not get involved with a sadist if you don't want to ever feel pain.
 
I am a sadist.  I enjoy inflicting pain on men, in particular.  It's a huge turn-on and power rush for me to know that I have this big, strong man entirely at my mercy, and that I'm going to do whatever I wish to do with him.  It's also not something I could simply set aside for the rest of my life.  I like being in control.  I like that heady rush that only power can bring me (which Master then takes from me by indulging the sadist in Himself).  I also adore men.  ALL men.  And I only hurt those for whom I have a genuine affection.  If I didn't like them, it wouldn't be fun.  They may not always like what I do to them (I always make sure I include something they hate, 'cause watching 'em squirm is even more fun), but I'm not going to seriously harm them.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 10:52:51 AM   
PlayfulOne


Posts: 1047
Status: offline 		Some would say I am a sadist, I have always thought of myself more as having a sadistic streak.  I can assure you I in no way hate women.  I adore females and for me to truly have may sadistic side come out I have to like who I am playing with.  I can't hurt just anyone.

The pain can be like other activites, sometimes it is the transfer of power that is the turnon t\rather than the act itself.  The spanking might not be in itself enjoyable for you but when coupled with the power exchange can create an entirely different reaction.

My little one listed herself as someone who liked a little pain and was not interested in a pain centered relationship  and of course as mentioned I have a sadistic side.  It never stopped us from speaking, and in the end we were too tken with one another to let that standin the way.  So we worked it out, I took things slow and easy and she has discovered she likes more things than she ever knew.  It also has to do at times with the hand which is dishing out the pain.  I am not sure she would enjoy it as much from someoen else.

K

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 11:17:51 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I was drawn back to this topic because for many moons it seemed like I had some preconceived notions that seem like they are turning out to be just not true -  or else I discovered I was thinking about things I didn't know I was as interested in before last year. Maybe I just "changed my mind" (and am still not sure why).Thanks for adding such a vivid description, Crouching Tigress and others - I am appreciating this convo from an intellectual standpoint. This is a topic I'd been deeply curious about for a long time. Not because it was "scary" or seemed "taboo" - but because I really was (am) just simply very curious (which hepled me "get past" any "scary" factor at least as far as not letting it stop me from knowing more. I can feel a rush of wanting to go futher and deeper into an experience like that and how laying one's soul totally open by it would drive people on...and on...and on. I almost posted a new topic about it yesterday - maybe I will tommorrow or Monday.

I really do believe (so far) that there must be a deep satisfaction for both people in knowing the other person is "accepting what they're offerring" - what it really seems like to me is: There's mental telepathy going on between two people on a "deeper" level than they'd otherwise have if they weren't involved in a sado-masochistic scenario- and that seems like it would be the most gratifying part (would be for me). There must be a great deal of trust happening. I am still not sure why I think this but - I am starting to think wanting it a lot has to do with really really needing to feel 'extra special' (I'll have to find an explanation that's more clarifying than that one - it's too vague, but best I can do at the moment.
Hmmm. How could this ever be wrong?! (rhetorical Q).

Gotta get off the net (got stuff to do today) - but will be checking in for sure on the progress of this thread later. See ya'll later. Hope everyone has a  fun day. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/8/2006 11:35:55 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 11:45:39 AM   
acctonthelook


Posts: 245
Joined: 3/28/2006
Status: offline 		I want to say thanks to everyone so far. I'm already feeling much better about it.  I don't feel as afraid, though maybe not ready.  If I met a Dom who was willing to take it slowly and build trust with me I could see myself 'feeling safe' with that person. I have enjoyed Learning, that it does NOT mean 'hate'.  And that limits or safewords are also part of it all.  Some of you have posted that maybe that Dom was spooky and to be careful.  I have every intent to be careful in any relationship/friendships I enter into. It's part of why I needed to pose this question. 
 
Sometimes lack of knowledge and understanding causes fear for me, but I've always tried to keep an open mind about everything in life.  I may be scared at times but finding the knowledge, those fears subside for me.
 
I am glad this post is helping a lot of people, not just me.  I think Sadist can at times be misunderstood by a newbie like me.  I did not see any posts re: Sadist's really before, so I wanted to know more and still look forward to seeing the thread grow with many thoughts and opinions and experiences.
 
Thanks!

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 1:29:23 PM   
TheShadows


Posts: 403
Joined: 9/16/2004
From: Southern Illinois
Status: offline 		Something I use as part of my Ethical Sadism, thanks Archer, is the following phrase...

"I want to hurt you, not harm you."

You may want to investigate what the words "hurt" and "harm" mean to you.  This could possibly open up a new line of thinking for you in regards to the fears of abuse in an S&M scenario.

For me, hurt is "Fuck, that stings!"
For me, harm is "Someone call 911!"

I hope you find the answers you seek.

< Message edited by TheShadows -- 4/8/2006 1:31:50 PM >

_____________________________

"The reason the mainstream is thought of as a stream is because of it's shallowness." - George Carlin

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most..." - Ozzy Osbourne

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 3:39:11 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		I think the difference though here kyra is the I doubt your Lord would EVER have written an email or an IIM like that to you early on--I may be wrong---but I don't see it, that's what I see as the difference---it made acctonthelook uncomfortable--uncomfortable that it isn't something she may want--and uncomfortable in knowing how to weed out the "loving sadists" from the abusers lurking---once trust is established, one begins to relax and start to let go.
 
but that's only My perception--

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor


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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 5:22:37 PM   
Takethiswaltz


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
Ever worked in a garden and got thorns in your hands but the smell of the dirt and the rawness and primalness of the experience over rode that and you kept gardening


Brilliant analogy; to me, anyway.
I've no experience with true S&M, and I too, have moments where I struggle to understand it from a point other than abuse,  but I do understand the dirt and the thorns and the sweat and the pain from an afternoon of intense digging and uprooting the ground.  The mental and physical release is unparalleled.
Is this what it's all about?

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in...

~Leonard Cohen~

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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 5:48:32 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		A Different Perspective of Sadism

The mainstream of society has a very specifically understood interpretation of Sadism that is very different from us in the lifestyle.

As defined by Merriam-Webster;
Sadism 1 : a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object) – compare Masochism 2 a : delight in cruelty b : excessive cruelty

This definition very clearly doesn't imply any moral or even consensual aspects to Sadism.  In fact, the definition gives a very negative connotation of sadism.  This connotation could be appropriately applied in some abusive situations and would generate negative feelings and thoughts such as fear, anger and even hate.  It is important to understand that these thoughts and feelings of Sadism are rooted in the mainstream interpretation.  With this understanding it becomes easier to appreciate and even accept an interpretation of Sadism within the lifestyle that is different than what society is accustomed to.

Sadism within the BDSM lifestyle has some important moral standards that are not part of the mainstream interpretation.  It is this inclusion of moral standards that has caused many to use terms such as Ethical Sadism and or Consensual Sadism to differentiate the lifestyle interpretation of sadism from the mainstream.  However, the BDSM lifestyle is far from an organized community with universally accepted definitions and interpretations.  You will find a great variety of opinions on what sadism is within the lifestyle.

I myself have a very specific definition of Sadism and I will also include my definition of Masochism the two being different sides of the same coin and reflected as Sadomasochism

Sadism is an act in which gratification is obtained by inflicting physical or mental pain on a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or on oneself.
Masochism is an act in which gratification is gained by enduring the infliction of physical and mental pain by a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or by oneself.

There are some very basic principles to Lifestyle Sadomasochism that are important to me that are reflected within my definitions.

Gratification: The pleasure and enjoyment we gain from the acts of Sadomasochism are at the core of why we do what we do.  Gratification is not just a one way street.  It's important that all those involved are gaining enjoyment from the activities.  For many it is difficult concept to understand pleasure in the acts of Sadomasochism.  This difficulty is largely a result of our underlying perception that pain is not pleasurable or even desired.  We are actually biologically engineered to fight or flight against dangers to our well-being and pain is but one of the triggers that raises the alarm bells.  We are also raised in a society that often seeks to implant an intellectual understanding that pain is a price to be paid for rewards or gains, but not something to be enjoyed.  Within the lifestyle, pain is enjoyed and even savored and one must divest themselves from the concepts of society to further ones understanding and appreciation of Sadomasochism. 

It should be noted that Gratification will have an implication of time and it can occur directly and/or indirectly. The implication of time is that it reflects Past, Present and Future.  We will gain gratification on reflecting and savoring of the activities we do in the course of our Sadomasochistic actions.  There is a general emotional and intellectual enhancement and empowerment from consideration of our past activities and a general satisfaction and happiness with oneself.  In the present, we are talking about the immediate pleasure one is feeling in course of the activities.  This immediate pleasure is not a mental process but very much an emotional response to what is occurring.  Gratification in the present will result in a joy and freedom to be in the moment with no consideration of the past or future.  The hope and optimism of our future activities can cause send us down incredible roads of anticipation and excitement.  It is here that we dream and fantasize of the things we wish to do.  We embrace these thoughts with courage and a desire to bring them into a reality of the present.  When I indicate directly or indirectly, it is in consideration of the person or persons that we play with.  It is often the case that we indirectly gain gratification and pleasure from watching and even contributing to the pleasure of another.  We also of course gain some direct physical and emotional pleasure from the experiences whether they are in our past, present or those in the future that we are anticipating.

Pain Sadomasochism gratification will occur because of actions that cause pain to one or more individuals.  This pain is not necessary just physical but there can be indeed emotional pain as well.  Gratification is the motivating force to engage in the SM activities, but what are the standards to have these gratifications in a manner that will facilitate Lifestyle Sadomasochism and not the mainstream understanding.

Consent is often sited as a fundamental principle within the lifestyle community.  However, what consent is becomes very much open to debate and a misunderstanding of what is consented to can result in many hardships and problems.  It is fundamental to me that I have consent from those that I play with.  This consent is not only given once but is also maintained on a constant basis and this consent could be revoked at any moment.  Without consent I no longer have the authority to do the activities that I may desire.  I also believe that consent must be clearly understood and the choice to consent is as informed as possible.  It is not possible to be completely clear or informed in all situations; however, the effort to do so is a requirement in my view.  It is for this reason that I believe that consent not only occurs once but is also maintained.
 
Healthy:  It is been my experience that not enough consideration is actually given to the state of a person and if it is appropriate for them to engage in Sadomasochistic activities.  Health of a person includes not just their physical condition but also their emotional and mental state. In my opinion an unhealthy person can actually make any consent given by them to be irrelevant.  Can the mentally unstable person make an informed decision for consent?  Is it appropriate to accept consent from someone that is emotionally unbalanced?  Because I have consent of a person to do Sadomasochistic activities doesn't relieve me of responsibility to consider if the person is capable of making a decision of consent in the first place.  Much of the SM activities that people engage in requires great emotional and mental strength and not just physical strength.

Moral principles are an important quality when we interact with others.  But, when I state a moral person, I am talking about a person that has character strengths and virtues that reflect Wisdom, Courage, Humanity, Justice, Temperance and Transcendence.  The list of character strengths one can possess is rather long.  There is not a specific list of characteristics that are necessarily best or better than others.  However, I do have particular strengths that I look for in my partners.  It is these character strengths and virtues that I and my partners exhibit that will promote trust and respect with one another.  It will build the confidence and security in one another to grow and explore the very depths of our Sadomasochistic desires. 
 
These principles and definitions wrap around each other. For me it is important that the Sadomasochistic acts that are acceptable to me contain these basic principles.  I will also state these principles are subject to the understanding of the individuals involved. We could attempt to apply some basic universal understanding that is generally acceptable as a social entity, but these would be very difficult to obtain and establish. Secondly, time has a way of changing our understanding.  What will the future bring I don't know. But I do know that my understanding of these principles are subject to change with new perspectives and thoughts gained by experiences I enjoy and thru the passage of time doing the activities that I have a passion for.


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to acctonthelook)
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RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 7:22:17 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
I think the difference though here kyra is the I doubt your Lord would EVER have written an email or an IIM like that to you early on--I may be wrong---but I don't see it, that's what I see as the difference---it made acctonthelook uncomfortable--uncomfortable that it isn't something she may want--and uncomfortable in knowing how to weed out the "loving sadists" from the abusers lurking---once trust is established, one begins to relax and start to let go.
 
but that's only My perception--


MHOO,

Actually, we did have an IM exchange that was very similar to what the OP described and it happened very soon after I stated the desire to meet him.  Looking back on it now, it was a very mild fantasy of his.  In my life with my Lord I am often pushed, mentally, physically and emotionally.  After I stated the desire to meet him, he wanted to give me a taste of what it would be like to be his slave, to be owned, possessed and used by him; to know that my body was completely for his pleasure.  He wanted to know how I would respond to being pushed and I needed to know if I was prepared to handle it.  I consented to being pushed by him.  He told me what he wanted to do and I gave my consent.  Essentially, he has been pushing me ever since that day.   

As I said it was a very mild fantasy for my Lord, but it caused some very strong emotional reactions in me.  I was uncomfortable, nervous, scared, anxious, craving, excited…  When he was done with his fantasy and questioned me on my feelings he called and spent another 30 minutes on the phone pushing me some more.  He then told me he wanted me to go into my bedroom, shut the door, strip, kneel on the floor and write about how I was feeling in my journal.  After about an hour, we continued our conversation.  He made sure that even though I had been pushed that I was okay.

At this point, there was no collar; I was not his and under no obligation to do as he instructed.  We were very much in the beginning stages of getting to know each other to see if we wanted to have a relationship.  I chose to do this.  I went into this experience with my eyes wide open and gave full consent.  This was just one more step that I chose to take on the path to becoming his slave. My Lord enjoyed what he did to me.  I remember hearing the pleasure in his voice knowing that his words had knocked me off balance mentally and emotionally.

As for what the OP stated, I don’t see a problem with the fantasy or with the dominant getting pleasure from it.  What was written is a little mild by my current standards, but as fantasies go it isn’t all that out there.  I don’t even see a problem with her being uncomfortable and him wanting to make her uncomfortable.  Better to know if they are not compatible in that regard.  What isn’t clear from what she wrote is if there was any informed consent on her part to hear this fantasy and to be pushed a little by this person.  If consent was absent then this exchange was inappropriate; if consent was given then there is nothing wrong with what happened.  That is a key component of what my Lord did with me, he obtained my consent and made sure that I knew what I was consenting to.

Knight's kyra

p.s.  Thank you for helping me bring back a very fond memory for me...


_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/8/2006 7:42:41 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I think also there are different levels of sadistic activity. Ranging from spanking, choking, to cutting, burning, etc... Not everyone is going to be as intense as the next self-identified sadist. It is entirely possible that you'd be comfortable with experimenting with spankings, or mild sadistic acts and the lighter side of sadism. I'd guess that is the case for most initially, I'd guess the trick is finding what your initial or near term limits would be and specify those as possiblities, but state the activities you'd be completely opposed to in your profile. If you then explore the lighter side of sadism, and find it enjoyable there is no rule that states you can't expand from there. Alot of people identify as sadists some of which would even scare me!!, others wouldn't even raise a eyebrow. My advice is to be careful assuming that any word means a particular thing to the person you are talking to. Because it's just as likely it doesn't mean the same thing you'd think it would mean. It may mean alot more than you think or it could be alot less.

Be careful, but don't be so careful as to completely shut yourself off.

That said I don't think it is a bad thing to write someone off who in their first couple contacts, starts talking of tying you to a tree and flogging the crap out of you. Because obviously you aren't looking for a primarily sadistic relationship.


(in reply to acctonthelook)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/9/2006 6:43:16 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I've been reading the past few explanations with a high level of interest and am really glad to hear from some actual sadists. I knew I would still be thinking about this when I got up this morning (I was). I've come up with my own nutshell synopsis about why people do this (there is, btw, no "judgmentalism" on my part attached to any of my thoughts here. 

I can sometimes dislike "armchair psychology", but - since it seems like nobody on the planet can seem to agree on exactly why people engage in this activity, anyone's opinion (maybe especially from an actual sadist) is as good as anyone else's here I 'spose. Maybe these thoughts below are nothing new to anyone who is experienced but I am just trying to "figure things out" for myself.

I do think sometimes investigating something a "too much" can take away from the "mystique of it all" - but then again, wanting to figure out 'what it's all about' is pretty much evidence that  any "mystique" about it (for me) hasn't been dissipated (or I wouldn't even be interested in analyzing it) - and I do have a lot of curiosity about this topic. 

My thoughts here only refer to when an actual scenario is taking place (though I imagine there is a dynamic that is similar that goes on "the rest of the time" if two people are in a relationship (to whatever degree). In relationships I am sure people live 'just like anyone else' - and relate to eachother as people who care about eachother and have many facets to their lives (and even mentioning that is probably un-necessary). I was thinking what it boiled down to is this:

1. One person (the masochist, or sub or slave - or whaever combo of those) is wanting recognition or a feeling of  approval from someone who may seem to be (key word here may be "seem") enticingly just "out of reach" - on some level (even if they are, say, in the same room with eachother a lot of the time. "Out of reach" means (to me) that some emotinal part of one person the other person wants to "reach" is either being with-held (deliberately) or has to be "worked for' (to "reach" it). The sadist is wanting recognition that it's okay for them to "be themselves" - no matter what (really the same thing as wanting recognition). This isn't "bad" - and each person gets some gratification from intereacting this way (or why would they do it)?

2. What better way to feel "extra special" than to feel some heavy-duty "visceral warmth" by either having to (willingly) strain to meet someone else's "expectations" (in the case of the masochist, or sub or slave), or else by with-holding (controlling) some final recognition or approval for the other person  (on the part of the sadist) and thus be reassured the other person really really really wants and-or appreciates (or even loves) them?- however this dynamic is acted out - whether physically or emotionally or both - I think that might be what's going on.

*Doesn't that, though just make some part of you want to cry? Does me.
I think sadists really need lots of HUGS (and masochists do too).  

Like I said, I could be way off-base and-or someone thinking these things may be no big revelation to experienced folks. But still -

Remember To: Hug your local sadist - Today!

I realize both people are probably very attuned to eachother (they'd have to be, wouldn't they?) -so they also give eachother "encouragement" ( verbal or physical) - along the way.Guess maybe I am more interested in the feelings involved in these scenarios because I take for granted if they weren't the more important aspect there probably wouldn't even be any physical activity.

*Maybe the above could be said of many bdsm encounter or relationship - but I don't think so (not really).

Do the reasons for it then make these activities "sick"?
Ever since I fell down this rabbit hole of a web-site, I no longer even know what that word means, so....No.

Plus - even if it was  "sick" - would it mean I necessarily had to care? No.

It sounds like it could definitely be pretty gratifying and fun (to me). I spose it helps if one maybe had "inclinations" in this direction for awhile - maybe many years, to "get used to" the idea, whether a person has acted on them or not. I think I had an emotionally sadisitc parent - it was a sometimes subtle, sometimes not - yet omnipresent thing - snarky comments were always flying through the air (and not from me). This might be TMI (too much information) but in any case, that person, I believe, didn't know they were being that way, and did love me - a Lot, and they had so many memorable lovely qualities which I will always remember and appreciate to this day. Plus, thanks to you - mom - if this is due to your influence -I now have a potentially better sex life than I ever could have imagined in my wildest dreams. 

It was pointless maybe to even mention the above (I was half-joking) - and it was not a 'complaint' (I loved my mother, and she is dead now anyway). How do I know how I got this way? Maybe it's genetic. Does it matter? Well it looks like I'm here on this planet for the duration no matter what - so...No again.
The reasons people engage in this activity are maybe as individual as the people involved. I do still think it's an interesting topic. I didn't mean to 'put it under a microscope' (but that really doesn't destroy any "mystique" it might have -for me - (hope that didn't deflate it for anyone else). I just really wanted to try to understand it, too. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/9/2006 7:42:07 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/9/2006 5:52:22 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		I would suggest you ask them to define what they mean by sadistic side and ask for examples.  The connotations are different for each person.  If you are involved with someone you feel is abusive and hates women, I would examine what he has said ir done that led you to that conclusion. If it is just that he said he is a sadist, get a LOT more information.

(in reply to acctonthelook)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sadist's? Understanding Needed... - 4/10/2006 3:49:12 AM   
obis


Posts: 412
Joined: 9/9/2005
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		As a few others have noted, Sadism can mean a lot of things, and just because someone is a sadist doesn't mean they need to do anything intense.

I consider myself a sadist, but I don't really require any particular level of pain, I just enjoy overwhelming my bottom's senses with pleasure and pain, so watever level is comfortable for her is what i'm happy with, too. For some subs I've had, that meant serious nipple torture and whipping. My current slave didn't have ANY interest in pain when we met, though spanking was okay. I introduced some light flogging and pinching into the mix and she was shocked to find how much she enjoyed it all. But her tolerance is very low and that's fine, as long as I see that look on her face that tells me her entire mind has shut down and she's just feeling.

So do what you've been doing and ask for examples of what a particular sadist would enjoy and if they need things to be a certain way or if they adapt to the particular bottom.

(in reply to Sensualips)
Profile   Post #: 40
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