RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First?

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naughtynick81 -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 5:12:41 PM)
The botttom line is that many women need to stop expecting men to be their finanial slaves when it comes to dating. Geez this is year 2010, not the 1950s anymore. The reality is that men owe women nothing! That's right, absolutely nothing, just as much as women claimer that they owe men nothing...such as giving out sex just because the man demands it. Unfortunately in the dating world, many women have this mentality of thinking that men constantly owe women and have to give give give at their demand to keep their interest while they aggressively shout that they don't owe men anything and men shouldn't expect or demand anything. It's a pretty fucked up way to be. The most disturbing part about this whole problem is that if men even voice their opinion against it, they will likely get threatened with rejection or be accused of being a misogynist. It's commonly against political correctness for men to make such complaints about female privilege that is so ingrained in society. I believe that's mostly the reason why such rubbish STILL exists in year 2010. And that's all it basically is, rubbish. Instead of throwing it away, many women prefer to create more and more rubbish to keep the cycle going.

AQuietSimpleMan -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 5:13:08 PM)
I'm going to suggest we agree to disagree. Cause your solution isn't a solution it is going to further the problem. In this very thread it has been stated by many women that if a man doesn't pay that he is somehow less of a gentleman or petty or small all because he doesn't pay. The reality is that what a man learns is that his worth in the dating world is usualy based on his pocketbook. So far most of the women here have confirmed this, by saying that if a man cares about the obvious expectations that he is a cheapskate or bitter or angry. I find it funny that men cannot expect the same of women and have it be generally accepted as it has been in this thread. I'm really done arguing the same thing over and over. Men are generally expected to pay. If Mississippi is different, which I still doubt, then so be it. But I think what is more likely is that men in Mississippi may be unable to maintain the status quo and because of this the dating structure has rolled over to the one who can cover things is and the one who can't is enjoying the ride cause I assure you that there are few women I know who can afford to cover themselves that are. But maybe that is just because of my social circle.. I will admit that it is possible that the reason I feel the way I feel is all because of the world I have witnessed. But if Movies are based on the conceptual facts of life portrayed in fantastic ways then I got at least 100 major motion pictures (Actually there are many many many more) that make fun of the very thing I have been stating in this thread. Art Imitates life, fictional or not. QSM

pyroaquatic -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 5:49:17 PM)
It is not about the money. I would gladly bring home the paycheck for a Good Lady. One of my first suggestions is to establish a rapport to elicit values. Honesty, Integrity, Safety, VIABLE LIFE PARTNER who does not any hard drugs.... I could go on but I will not. We are imperfect people. If I have to question said Domme then it is apparent that I do not trust her. I've been burned too much and I have little faith in humanity. A slave would possess no money. Sorry Ladies I have nothing to give you but myself.

LadyPact -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:11:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 The botttom line is that many women need to stop expecting men to be their finanial slaves when it comes to dating. Geez this is year 2010, not the 1950s anymore. The reality is that men owe women nothing! That's right, absolutely nothing, just as much as women claimer that they owe men nothing...such as giving out sex just because the man demands it. Unfortunately in the dating world, many women have this mentality of thinking that men constantly owe women and have to give give give at their demand to keep their interest while they aggressively shout that they don't owe men anything and men shouldn't expect or demand anything. It's a pretty fucked up way to be. The most disturbing part about this whole problem is that if men even voice their opinion against it, they will likely get threatened with rejection or be accused of being a misogynist. It's commonly against political correctness for men to make such complaints about female privilege that is so ingrained in society. I believe that's mostly the reason why such rubbish STILL exists in year 2010. And that's all it basically is, rubbish. Instead of throwing it away, many women prefer to create more and more rubbish to keep the cycle going. Then, what you do is you find a woman who feels about it the way you do. Date, go dutch. Really, really simple. Will that disqualify you from certain women? Yes, it will. Oddly enough, I do tend to think that there is one thing that sways the balance. Who asked whom to go out? Just for a moment, let's take the first meet example away from it. If I invite someone to My home for dinner, I don't expect them to bring the main course. It still doesn't hurt the person invited to bring flowers, a bottle of wine, or a desert. Where I come from, that's just plain good old fashioned manners. It has nothing to do with being male or female. Then, next time, it works the other way around. Point is, it isn't the money itself. Sometimes, it's the attitude. There are people who are willing to make gestures and some aren't.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:21:19 PM)
You really do come off as bitter, QSM. Considering that you're a happily married man, that is a bit surprising. You are too young to be this jaded. I think that there are really big differences of background feeding into this argument. I was brought up to be a "lady", with all the tiresome hooey that entails. A lady would never dream of accepting an inappropriately costly gift, and she would NEVER order the lobster on a first date, or maybe even the tenth! (did you know that back in the day--a bit before my youth, even!--in fancy restaurants a lady's menu would not have ANY prices in it~ ) I was not raised to have a sense of entitlement. Earlier on I mentioned the guy who cheerfully took my money for lunch, all seven dollars' worth. Now, we had NO agreement about who was paying, the check came, and AS USUAL I reached for my wallet. (He seemed startled, in a too-positive way...) When I ordered my cinnamon french toast, I deliberately didn't order anything else but my iced tea. Elisabella mentioned going dutch as being a "just friends" kind of thing, and if someone didn't offer to pick her tab on a first date it was a sign of disinterest. I have to ponder that for a bit, the idea of not paying for coffee being dating code for "just not that into you." I will toss it out on my fetlife seeking in michigan list, and get back to you.

Runabout -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:30:18 PM)
I wouldn't put much value into the "paying or not paying for coffee" theory. There have been times when I am not interested in someone after meeting for a coffee that I have paid for it. Heck if you are going to want to split a bill over some coffee then I think that person has issues.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:34:22 PM)
LadyPact quote: Then, what you do is you find a woman who feels about it the way you do. Date, go dutch. Really, really simple. Sorry to sound a bit snappy towards you here but do I really need to repeat myself? I've been having to do this quite a bit on this thread. I have already explained that I avoid dating women who are this certain way I am complaining about. I suggest you go back and read what I said earlier in this thread. quote: Oddly enough, I do tend to think that there is one thing that sways the balance. Who asked whom to go out? Just for a moment, let's take the first meet example away from it. Well someone has to do the asking out or else nothing will ever happen. In fact, the person who is doing the asking out is the one who is doing the favour as they are the one's who are doing the ground work and putting the wheels in motion. Secondly, does anyone agree to go out with a person that they don't really have interest in to begin with? Are you still going to say "yes" to a man if you don;t have any interest in him? Of course not. Thirdly, why should the person who does the asking out face a double burden? Meaning they risk themselves to rejection while having to pay all the expenses. Lastly, it seems that many women or dare I say close to a majority of women wait for the man to do the asking out and approaching. Yet, they come up with this lame scam of saying "who ever does the asking out pays" while they are not willing to do the asking out themselves. That's a really crappy attitude! quote: Point is, it isn't the money itself. Sometimes, it's the attitude. There are people who are willing to make gestures and some aren't. Why shouldn't these women be accused of having a bad attitude when they aggressively refuse to pay for their own expenses and/or the man's? Just like what QSM was saying above, it's funny how men can't judge women in the same negative ways when they are doing the exact same of what they criticise men for. Talk about shameless hypocrites.

Runabout -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:41:02 PM)
I'd say that your comments Nick will be construed as you being a penny-pinching tight-ass. That being said, I have no problem with both people paying their own way.

PeonForHer -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:41:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Point is, it isn't the money itself. Sometimes, it's the attitude. There are people who are willing to make gestures and some aren't. I think that gets near to the nub of it, LP. For me, as a male, there are two extreme sorts (spectres, really, rather than real women that I've actually known) that I hope that I won't come across. A woman of the first sort won't see that she's living in a time when women are obliged/able to live by both traditional mores, and by modern, emancipated mores. She won't think that it's all about a careful, fine balance between the two. She'll just want to take the best of both worlds, and screw the contradictions. But that sort I doubt I'll ever meet. A woman like that will have shown that she's a vacuous, self-centred nitwit well before I the question of meeting even arises. She'd never go for someone like me, anyway. The second sort will be more difficult to deal with. These are the ones who have had bitter experiences and the whole matter of romance has been sullied by those experiences. I must admit, I haven't a clue how I'd deal with that sort. Some things, for some people, can never be light again, once they've been made heavy.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:42:28 PM)
quote: You really do come off as bitter, QSM. Considering that you're a happily married man, that is a bit surprising. You are too young to be this jaded Why is he bitter, jaded or just oh so wrong for pointing out an issue that is definitely legitimate to raise as it's sexist towards men? Are men expected to shut up and say nothing about it while women can still complain on and on about female oppression like they have non stop in the past 50 odd years? When is it ever the men's turn to have their say about what it's like at their side of the fence? The women who keep accusing men of being this way just for pointing out something very real and wrong, have to stop being bigots and think outside the box. It's being really closed minded

LadyCimarron -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 6:57:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 quote: You really do come off as bitter, QSM. Considering that you're a happily married man, that is a bit surprising. You are too young to be this jaded Why is he bitter, jaded or just oh so wrong for pointing out an issue that is definitely legitimate to raise as it's sexist towards men? Are men expected to shut up and say nothing about it while women can still complain on and on about female oppression like they have non stop in the past 50 odd years? When is it ever the men's turn to have their say about what it's like at their side of the fence? I say today is the day. Go out and do it. When women believe in a cause they organize, they rally, they go to OPRAH, they march, and they effect change. I suggest you do the same. Start today. Organize the men. Rallly the troops and get all the men together who are feeling oppressed and tell them to stop paying for dates. Have your marches, your conferences and your t-shirts. Refuse to shut-up. FIGHT for what you believe in just like women have and do. If the men believe in it the way you say they do they will join you. I wish you luck in your movement. The women who keep accusing men of being this way just for pointing out something very real and wrong, have to stop being bigots and think outside the box. It's being really closed minded

LadyNTrainer -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:16:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan LadyNTrainer = You are assuming I believe that I am Bitter or Angry about this, when in reality I accept it as it is, the societal NORM for America and Europe. I am not Angry or Bitter, I am just willing to discuss the elephant in the living room that most people are uncomfortable discussing. It should also be known that I agree that you personally do behave this way and think it is the way it should be. What I ask you is do you think you are practicing a Typical or an A-Typical behavior for women in general? When you go to a romantic restraunt how many of the males are simply being resiprocative of some other received actions. I.E. How many there are wearing clothes and jewerly that their female counterpart purchased them and therefore picking up the tab because it is fair. I can't speak to how you're feeling. I can say that you are coming across as angry and bitter to my perceptions, and that I'm not the only person perceiving this. Because I am not particularly neurotypical myself, I also can't really speak to what is normal or not for most other women and men to think or feel. I can speculate, and I can study the sociology and psychology and demographics of the subject, but in the end I only know how I feel and how I want to make my partners feel. When I give gifts, it's not about reciprocity. It's because he is beautiful, and if I could I would climb the heavens and take down the brightest stars to make him a robe of the night sky. The long arch of his back is bared to me, naked and vulnerable to my gentlest as well as my most terrible attentions. He gives me the bright blood roses that bloom on the pale canvas of his skin, and the crimson rubies at his throat, salt and sweet after my sharpest caress. There is no greater love than this, and no greater gift than this. To call what I would do for him reciprocity is nowhere near sufficient. No matter what it was, it would not be enough if it were tendered merely in payment. It is not. It is only that I cherish him beyond measure, and I do whatever I can to make him understand that he is beautiful, and mine, and worth cherishing. Small things, at times, but I am always alert for the opportunity. He gives to me because he wants to make me happy. We don't add up the costs, or keep score, or focus on who spent what. That's not the kind of relationship I want to be in, and that's why it would probably be a deal-breaker for me if the dynamics went that way.

Andalusite -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:21:12 PM)
LNT, that was beautiful! I agree that keeping score and focusing on the money rather than on doing everything possible to help each other feel happy, cherished, and thrilled is just sad. BTW, there's nothing wrong with giving a man flowers, and I did a couple of times, and may again if the peron I'm dating likes them. Most guys I've dated would rather get other things, and I think it is considerate to give things that the other person wants, rather than what I want to get. [;)] Everyone has different tastes, and part of getting to know your partner is finding out the little things they like and find useful and that make them happy.

LadyPact -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:22:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 Sorry to sound a bit snappy towards you here but do I really need to repeat myself? I've been having to do this quite a bit on this thread. I have already explained that I avoid dating women who are this certain way I am complaining about. I suggest you go back and read what I said earlier in this thread. Fifteen pages of this? No thanks. quote: Well someone has to do the asking out or else nothing will ever happen. In fact, the person who is doing the asking out is the one who is doing the favour as they are the one's who are doing the ground work and putting the wheels in motion. Where's the favor? I mean that seriously. I don't think that anyone believes themselves to be so superior to the other person that the pleasure of their company is any better than the other. quote: Secondly, does anyone agree to go out with a person that they don't really have interest in to begin with? Are you still going to say "yes" to a man if you don;t have any interest in him? Of course not. I could muddy this by saying yes, since friends do the same thing. A good number of the folks that I've met from the site for the first time would fall into this category. quote: Thirdly, why should the person who does the asking out face a double burden? Meaning they risk themselves to rejection while having to pay all the expenses. Burden? Oh good heavens! You sound like the consequences are so dire. I can see the disclaimers now. "No person was killed while mustering up the courage to ask to meet." quote: Lastly, it seems that many women or dare I say close to a majority of women wait for the man to do the asking out and approaching. Yet, they come up with this lame scam of saying "who ever does the asking out pays" while they are not willing to do the asking out themselves. That's a really crappy attitude! I'll cop to usually waiting to see if someone wants to meet. This has absolutely more to do with Me being poly than anything else. I realize that being poly is something that most folks have to be willing to accept in a situation. Not everyone can or does. quote: Why shouldn't these women be accused of having a bad attitude when they aggressively refuse to pay for their own expenses and/or the man's? Just like what QSM was saying above, it's funny how men can't judge women in the same negative ways when they are doing the exact same of what they criticise men for. Talk about shameless hypocrites. If I had a first meet where someone didn't at least offer to pay his share of the check, I might just get it into My head to pay My half and leave. I absolutely do want to see how the person I'm meeting handles the matter. As I've said earlier, I usually do intend to pay. Still, how that person reacts is very telling. I absolutely am going to see if they offer to leave the tip and it's going to say a lot if that person tips well. I just paid for their meal, so they can afford to be generous to the staff, can't they? You really can skip terms such as bigot in discussing the matter.

Elisabella -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:23:33 PM)
quote: Elisabella mentioned going dutch as being a "just friends" kind of thing, and if someone didn't offer to pick her tab on a first date it was a sign of disinterest. I have to ponder that for a bit, the idea of not paying for coffee being dating code for "just not that into you." I will toss it out on my fetlife seeking in michigan list, and get back to you. Hehe well it's not a hard and fast rule but it works pretty well for me. It's sort of symbolic, dating is two people combining into a relationship, so to make a point of keeping things separate in my mind reflects a lack of closeness. Then again I had a guy friend who wouldn't let me pay for anything when we hung out, he'd always pay for movies or lunch or coffee unless we were meeting and I got there first and already had a coffee, but that's just the way he was. LadyPact also made a good point that it depends on who asks whom out. When I was dating, especially when I was younger, if I wanted to see a movie or try a new restaurant and my boyfriend didn't have money, I would pay for it, because I wanted to go do whatever it was and it wasn't a big deal. But to me that's about wanting to do an activity, not about notions of "equality." And I do think QSM is right about it being "sexist" at least by the strictest definition of the term - expecting one thing from men and expecting another thing from women. But my relationships have never been about both people having the same things to offer each other, I mean this is a BDSM site after all [8D] I'll do my thing, he'll do his thing, and we'll like the fact that the other is different. So I can't get too fussed over the "sexism" here.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:27:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 Thirdly, why should the person who does the asking out face a double burden? Meaning they risk themselves to rejection while having to pay all the expenses. That sounds suspiciously to me like the attitude of a guy who thinks that if he pays for dinner and drinks, he is entitled to a screw. Sorry, but that's creepy as fuck. quote: Lastly, it seems that many women or dare I say close to a majority of women wait for the man to do the asking out and approaching. Yet, they come up with this lame scam of saying "who ever does the asking out pays" while they are not willing to do the asking out themselves. That's a really crappy attitude! It depends on the individuals and their dynamic. For me, if I do the asking, I also do the treating. quote: Why shouldn't these women be accused of having a bad attitude when they aggressively refuse to pay for their own expenses and/or the man's? If the dynamic a woman wants in her life is to feel special and cared for because the man takes her out on a date, she has the right to choose that and to communicate that clearly to prospective partners. Same goes for men, and I guarantee the pretty ones who can please women will find no shortage of takers. The not so pretty ones who don't spend enough time making themselves attractive and entertaining won't have any takers. Those are the ones you generally find carping about it and complaining that it isn't fair, or that the opposite sex are all bad people, when the real truth is more likely to be found by looking in the mirror. Life isn't fair. If you're sexy and you want to find someone willing to pamper you, because that's what makes you feel cherished and appreciated, it's not hard to find a partner who consents to that dynamic. If you're not, you can either take the time and effort to make yourself sexy enough that someone will want to court and treat you, or you can complain that it's not fair when nobody thinks you're worth courting. Your choice entirely.

LadyPact -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:31:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I think that gets near to the nub of it, LP. For me, as a male, there are two extreme sorts (spectres, really, rather than real women that I've actually known) that I hope that I won't come across. A woman of the first sort won't see that she's living in a time when women are obliged/able to live by both traditional mores, and by modern, emancipated mores. She won't think that it's all about a careful, fine balance between the two. She'll just want to take the best of both worlds, and screw the contradictions. But that sort I doubt I'll ever meet. A woman like that will have shown that she's a vacuous, self-centred nitwit well before I the question of meeting even arises. She'd never go for someone like me, anyway. The second sort will be more difficult to deal with. These are the ones who have had bitter experiences and the whole matter of romance has been sullied by those experiences. I must admit, I haven't a clue how I'd deal with that sort. Some things, for some people, can never be light again, once they've been made heavy. My dear peon, I think we're of one mind on this. I think you probably know better than anyone how I hate these money threads. At least ones that turn sour. It makes Me wonder just how bad things really are out there. Thank God I don't date!

PeonForHer -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:33:21 PM)
Yep. 'Money doesn't talk, it swears'.

wandersalone -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 7:45:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan Are there exceptions? Sure, but they usually prove the rule, of the women I have met who do Pay do so only because they want to make it clear that NOTHING should be expected of them period that they are not indebted in anyway for having money spent on them. This Exception proves the rule. Is it possible that you mix in circles where this is the rule but that it isn't as prevalent in other circles? I am someone that pays my own way not only at first time coffee meets but also when dating someone. If the other person insists on paying for a meal I always get the next one or I will surprise them with something nice like movie tickets or a fabulous spread for a picnic etc. And this isn't only in situations where I do not want to set up possible expectations, it is also in my romantic encounters. If anything, I find that it is the men who struggle with my insistence on paying half but that is their issue. Could you refuse to pay for them or choose not to see them again if you feel that the woman is expecting you to pay? quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella To be honest, a guy is lucky when he gets to pay for my dinner. When I split the bill it translates to "I'm not into you and I don't want there to be any mixed signals" so really, if I'm ready to let him pay and he brings up some feminist equality bs, I'll be more than happy to split the bill...learning on a first date that a guy I was attracted to holds such a different view for the cost of a meal is a bargain IMO. I always love the different viewpoints and learning a little more about people's reasoning's for them. For me what Elisabella wrote is pretty much opposite to what I believe. And my insisting on paying my share happens with both platonic friends and with lovers/partners. [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella Okay, I really hate this line of thought. You know why? Let's say you and I work in the same field, some generalized office work type thing, and we both have to present a professional image as well as maintain our love life. We also get paid the same. Tell me this: How much do you spend per year on makeup that is of good enough quality to last 8 hours? snipped for space I have to disagree with some of this post Elisabella. Yes I agree that it is outrageous and ridiculous that our haircuts cost so much more than men's ones, especially if we are wanting nothing more than a quick trim. I also agree that some of our clothing is much less sturdier than men's ...compare womens t shirts to mens, womens socks to mens and so on. However as a woman I make a choice to have a dozen different pairs of black heels that I can wear to the office and I make a choice to have a dozen different handbags and briefcases for work. I also choose the $35 lipstick that I only need to apply once vs the $10 one that I would have to apply more often - the latter because I am lazy and admit it. I am in a fairly senior position and have to meet with customers and do the whole schmoozing thing so I need to look professional and presentable however this does not mean I have to wear expensive make up and clothes and so on. On some days I am just as comfortable with a freshly scrubbed face, washed hair and my k mart plain black dress. In my eyes I look no less professional or presentable (well at least, no one has ever told me they have concerns or run away screaming [:D] ) quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan It isn't about Money Domi, it's about a social stigma that says Men are the ones who are SUPPOSED to pay. QSM And every time you pay you are continuing to allow this misbelief to occur unchecked. If on the first date the woman doesn't at the very least reach for her purse in an offer to pay half don't date her again. quote: ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan I have never complained about this and will not start now I want someone to get what they WANT not what's on the $13.00 or less menu. I order what I want but I find it strange how many times I have had girls order Lobster on me on a date and admit they rarely have lobster. I find it hillarious how many women order more food than they can possibly eat and after taking like 6 bites get the rest to go. I'm not bitching but I find it funny that these activities get ignored on threads like this. Sorry to have to break this to you but actually....what you did above was complaining and was bitching.... adding a disclaimer doesn't make it any less so. [:)] I realise this thread was initially about Mistresses and male subs and I acknowledge that I have no experience of this but the ensuing comments and views have been fascinating to read. I personally find it frustrating to be lumped in the category with these "most women who expect a man to pay" especially as amongst my group of female friends and acquaintances this is not the norm. And the men I know for the most part are perfectly comfortable to either go dutch or to take turns in paying and they still show that they are gentlemen in so many other ways, opening the car door, pulling out the chair etc. Those are the things I value much more than who picks up the cheque.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Why Do So Many Mistresses Want Money First? (6/18/2010 8:31:15 PM)
LadyPact quote: Where's the favor? I mean that seriously. I don't think that anyone believes themselves to be so superior to the other person that the pleasure of their company is any better than the other. As I explained, the favour comes from them doing the asking out and being the ones who do the ground work to create the situation at first hand. Does this mean the other person owes them anything? Certainly not. As I also expressed earlier, no one owes the other anything, period. To the second thing you said in this quote, I haven't seen a woman express this exactly in this thread but it has probably already been expressed earlier in this thread. I have only read up to page 10 and onwards...I think. But anyway, I have seen many many many women express elsewhere in this same type of topic that the man should pay because she is giving him company. This translates to that her company is superior to the other. There was a huge shit fight about it on the Plenty Of Fish site last year or so that had numerous women who kept coming up with that same opinion. This may all sound irrelevant to you but I am just pointing out that this mentality is very real quote: I could muddy this by saying yes, since friends do the same thing. I may be misinterpreting you here LP, but are you meaning that when ever your friends invite you to hang out, you expect them to pay for everything? You and I live in totally different worlds. Where I come from, everyone is only responsible for themselves regardless who made the idea to meet at such and such. quote: Burden? Oh good heavens! You sound like the consequences are so dire Just saying, a person is having to face consequences for doing most of the work...such as doing the asking out. quote: If I had a first meet where someone didn't at least offer to pay his share of the check, I might just get it into My head to pay My half and leave. But if a man did that towards a woman, that means he is being a cheapskate or what someone else expressed in their words "a penny pinching tight-ass? right? They are being bitter and angry at women for doing so. quote: I absolutely do want to see how the person I'm meeting handles the matter. As I've said earlier, I usually do intend to pay. Still, how that person reacts is very telling. I absolutely am going to see if they offer to leave the tip and it's going to say a lot if that person tips well. I just paid for their meal, so they can afford to be generous to the staff, can't they? I think a man is perfectly entitled to act negatively if a woman is showing signs of not wanting to pay her share. Such as looking the other way or walking out the door. This type of behaviour is blatantly rude. So why shouldn't a man be entitled to act and feel negative towards a woman who is being rude? It seems legitimate to me. If you pay for their half, yes, it's validated to expect them to pay the tip. But when it's the other way around, I doubt that the women in this thread would have the same opinion. LadyNTrainer That sounds suspiciously to me like the attitude of a guy who thinks that if he pays for dinner and drinks, he is entitled to a screw. Sorry, but that's creepy as fuck. Think what you like. As I expressed earlier, no one owes anyone anything when it comes to dating. That being said, as much as I don't feel one tiny bit entitled to screw a woman because I want to, but why is it okay for women to feel entitlements over men such as spending their money but if a man feels he is entitled to anything that exists on the planet from a woman, he is an idiot? quote: It depends on the individuals and their dynamic. For me, if I do the asking, I also do the treating. This concept on dating makes absolutely no sense, there is no logic to this. You shouldn't have to pay that extra expense on their behalf just to meet another human being on the planet. That's just ridiculous. Many of us are looking for our soulmates/that someone special in their life. It's apart of our human nature to seek someone to reproduce with and so on. Why should people be charged by the other person as for paying their expenses for making normal human behaviour happen? Sorry to say, I don't see one bit of intelligence in this theory of yours and the others who have the same. quote: If the dynamic a woman wants in her life is to feel special and cared for because the man takes her out on a date, she has the right to choose that and to communicate that clearly to prospective partners. What a load of crud. I believe if a man feels the same sense of entitlement over women, he is likely to be seen as an idiot or someone who is not a "real man" in a social view. Why the double standard? What's the logic behind the double standard? There is no logic, that's the problem. quote: Same goes for men, and I guarantee the pretty ones who can please women will find no shortage of takers. The not so pretty ones who don't spend enough time making themselves attractive and entertaining won't have any takers. Those are the ones you generally find carping about it and complaining that it isn't fair, or that the opposite sex are all bad people, when the real truth is more likely to be found by looking in the mirror. Last time I checked, the majority of people (women AND men) who go on dates make effort to make themselves look good. Secondly, what you mentioned about "entertaining", some people can be really shy on dates. For example, if a woman is shy on a date and does not create or follow on all the interesting conversations, does that give the man the right to make her pay for her share or pay for everything? All and all, women like you need to stop blaming men for women's actions. Them actions being, having a faulty sense of entitlement that they simply don't deserve. Men are not wrong for complaining about this ridiculous unfairness expected upon our gender. Many of the women in this thread seriously don't get it. They are so brainwashed into their faulty sense of entitlement. It's futile trying to explain how illogical their laughable stance truly is.

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