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Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:09:08 AM

SocratesNot

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Does pure, absolute altruism exist?
Do acts that are completely selfless exist?
Can behavior be motivated exclusively by the desire to do good to others without expecting anything in return, without even expecting "good feelings" that usually accompany selfless acts?

I think that the answer to all of these questions is very strong "Yes!" but I also think that such acts are not very common.
I am interested in your opinions.

P.S.

I started this thread to prevent further hijack of this thred: http://www.collarchat.com/m_3257016/mpage_4/tm.htm

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:12:44 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Does pure, absolute altruism exist?
Do acts that are completely selfless exist?
Can behavior be motivated exclusively by the desire to do good to others without expecting anything in return, without even expecting "good feelings" that usually accompany selfless acts?

Why would someone do something altruistic if not just for the good feeling attached... there would be no motivation to do anything for anyone at all. In my mind altruistic acts are not less so because people are motivated out of a sense of duty, etc, to do them.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:22:50 AM

SocratesNot

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quote:

Why would someone do something altruistic if not just for the good feeling attached.

Because he wants other people to feel happy and to help them. Altruism is the opposite of sadism. Sadism in its pure form is enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction derived from other people's suffering - simple as that. Altruism, on the other hand - is enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction derived from other people's happiness, benefit and pleasure - also simple as that.
If pure sadism can exist, then pure altruism can also exist.

People can be satisfied with other people's happiness independently of how they will later think or feel about themselves because they are the cause of this happiness.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/15/2010 10:36:20 AM >

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:35:02 AM

RCdc

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quote:

Altruism, on the other hand - is enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction derived from other people's happiness, benefit and pleasure .

Except that Altruism isn't the opposite of sadism because it isn't how you described it above. When commiting an act of altruism,you would not derive pleasure or satisfaction from others happiness - that would not be selfless.
Altruism is selfless concern for others welfare. Altruists are not happy because of satisfaction, they are happy because of others happiness - it's a vital difference. If anything, they would be more like vicarious masochists or sadists.

the.dark.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 6/15/2010 10:36:33 AM >

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:38:27 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Why would someone do something altruistic if not just for the good feeling attached...

Being 'cruel to be kind' often doesn't feel good. In general, doing that felicific calculus - working out 'the greatest good for the greatest number' may not feel good at all. Military leaders probably do occasionally sacrifice a battalion in order to save an army, for instance - that can't feel good to them.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:39:59 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Because he wants other people to feel happy and to help them

It feels good to make people happy, get it?

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:42:09 AM

SocratesNot

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quote:

When commiting an act of altruism,you would not derive pleasure or satisfaction from others happiness - that would not be selfless.
Altruism is selfless concern for others welfare. Altruists are not happy because of satisfaction, they are happy because of others happiness - it's a vital difference.

The most important thing about altruism is MOTIVATION, not actual feelings.
Altruists are NOT MOTIVATED by their pleasure or hapiness that they will derive from benefiting others.
Instead, they are motivated by genuine concern for other people's welfare and by desire to benefit them.
However, if they DO FEEL HAPPY because of their altruistic deeds this DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY LESS ALTRUISTIC.

Actually, almost everyone feels good when they do something good to other people. The difference is not in feelings but in motivation.

If you are motivated by your own feelings you are not an altruist.
If you are motivated by genuine concern for others and desire to make them happy - you ARE an altruist - even though you will be happy because of it.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 6/15/2010 10:44:22 AM >

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:42:16 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Why would someone do something altruistic if not just for the good feeling attached...

Being 'cruel to be kind' often doesn't feel good. In general, doing that felicific calculus - working out 'the greatest good for the greatest number' may not feel good at all. Military leaders probably do occasionally sacrifice a battalion in order to save an army, for instance - that can't feel good to them.

if I decided to give my life so that others I love could have one, that would bring me a profound sense of purpose, and THAT is something that has a good feeling attached to it.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:43:29 AM

Ishtarr

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I've always found Robert Axelrod's theories around altruism to be very interesting.
He basically suggest that altruism, and heroism, especially in males is like a peacock's tail.

It basically serves no logical biological function and is actually even counter-productive in evolutionary terms.
It inhibits the chances of individual survival, and the only logical reason to keep it around is for sexual selection and to show off health to the opposite sex.

A peacock's tail basically screams: I'm such a healthy strong specimen that I can endanger my chances to survive by caring a useless, unpractical tail this size around and still make it through life successful
Robert's suggest that we are selflessly altruistic and heroic for the same reason.
Running into a burning building to save a child basically screams: I'm such a healthy and strong specimen that I can risk endangering my life like that because I'm confident that I'll make it anyways, and thus could be seen as a sexual selection strategy meant to impress the opposite sex, which would also explain why this type of behavior is more pronounced in males than in females.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:43:49 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

Does pure, absolute altruism exist?

If, by "pure, absolute altruism" you mean "behavior that acts on another's behalf at one's own expense, where there is NO possibility of any perceived benefit to the performer" I'd have to say "Yes, but only when the individual performing such an act is mentally or emotionally ill and incapable of self-preservation and proper choice evaluation."

quote:

Do acts that are completely selfless exist?

I believe there is no such thing as a "completely selfless" act. It is possible to subsume the self on another's behalf, however, there must be some perceived or intrinsic value to the individual in doing so. Even if the value is postponed significantly (ie., "I'll go to heaven if I do this" or "I'll go down in history as a hero for doing this."), if an individual is mentally and emotionally capable of rational thought, there must be -some- benefit to the individual in choosing a particular action.

quote:

Can behavior be motivated exclusively by the desire to do good to others without expecting anything in return, without even expecting "good feelings" that usually accompany selfless acts?

This is a completely irrational question. If one desires to do good, then when one does good, one's desire is fulfilled, therefore, it is not possible to desire something, have that desire be fulfilled, and NOT have there be positive feelings that come along with it. In this case, having the desire to do good be fulfilled IS the reward. That is as close as I think we can get to being 'fully' altruistic, but it still provides a reward to the one committing the act -- the reward of having completed something that was desired.

Calla

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:45:01 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

This is absolutely not true. The most important thing about altruism is MOTIVATION, not actual feelings.
Altruists are NOT MOTIVATED by their pleasure or hapiness that they will derive from benefiting others.
Instead, they are motivated by genuine concern for other people's welfare and by desire to benefit them.
However, if they DO FEEL HAPPY because of their altruistic deeds this DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY LESS ALTRUISTIC.

I am a submissive sort of person.... I get a tremendous satisfaction from serving others, and to say that this is not a motivation is seriously narrowing the definition of what "feels good" in my mind... just me, etc

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:48:20 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:

When commiting an act of altruism,you would not derive pleasure or satisfaction from others happiness - that would not be selfless.
Altruism is selfless concern for others welfare. Altruists are not happy because of satisfaction, they are happy because of others happiness - it's a vital difference.

The most important thing about altruism is MOTIVATION, not actual feelings.
Altruists are NOT MOTIVATED by their pleasure or hapiness that they will derive from benefiting others.
Instead, they are motivated by genuine concern for other people's welfare and by desire to benefit them.
However, if they DO FEEL HAPPY because of their altruistic deeds this DOES NOT MAKE THEM ANY LESS ALTRUISTIC.

Actually, almost everyone feels good when they do something good to other people. The difference is not in feelings but in motivation.

If you are motivated by your own feelings you are not an altruist.
If you are motivated by genuine concern for others and desire to make them happy - you ARE an altruist - even though you will be happy because of it.

In a way I agree. But you also have to remember that the 'act' doesn't have to feel pleasurable, like peon said.

the.dark.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:50:50 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

If you are motivated by your own feelings you are not an altruist.
If you are motivated by genuine concern for others and desire to make them happy - you ARE an altruist - even though you will be happy because of it.

"It is important to give of oneself completely, and to live in service to others" is a statement of "altruism"... however, if you look at the motivation behind that statement, it is the BELIEF that, in order to live as a whole person, one must live in service... therefore, this person is making the choice based on a FEELING that xhe will obtain "completeness"/"satisfaction"/joy from living in this kind of service. The external motivator is seeing the need... however, without an internal motivator, we do not act, and the INTERNAL motivator is the sense that this is "right" -- the positive internal FEELINGS that enable the person to act on the external motivator.

Calla

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 10:59:34 AM

SocratesNot

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By my definition any act that is motivated primarily by the desire to do good to other people is altruistic, regardless of how they will feel about it later.

Since without desire there is no motivation and the two concepts are very similar - we can also say - that ANY action is motivated, or caused by something - this is law of casualty - there are no actions that are uncaused. So motivation must exist. But, what is important is the nature of the motivation.

As long as one acts because of genuine care for other people and desire to benefit them - this is altruism by my definition - and all the other details are unimportant technicalities. Also, feelings that will be derived from the act are not important. OF COURSE that we will feel good because we did something good. This is natural.
But if we are motivated by love and desire to benefit others, we are still acting altruistically, even if we are rewarded by our feelings later. It is important that we did it just because we wanted to help people, not because we were looking for this reward. The reward will come, we can't prevent it even if we try.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 11:59:11 AM

MarcEsadrian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
Because he wants other people to feel happy and to help them. Altruism is the opposite of sadism. Sadism in its pure form is enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction derived from other people's suffering - simple as that.

I've often thought of egotism to be the opposite of altruism. Sadism seems a smaller word than either of these.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:03:47 PM

laurell3

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I agree Marc.

SN, the problem you seem to be missing is you are trying to again state things in absolutes. The concept of "pure" does mean that if you are doing an act, although altruistic to get positive emotional response, it isn't "pure". I doubt there is "pure". The question is inane really. It doesn't make other posters opinions technicalities.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:10:11 PM

SocratesNot

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Well if I see someone suffer I will try to comfort them or to help them. My motivation will be to stop their suffering. Yes, I will feel good about it later, but I didn't do it in order to feel good later, I did it just because I wanted to stop their suffering. Feeling good about it is unintended positive side effect, which can reinforce such behavior in the future, but this was not primary motivation. Such act is altruistic despite positive feelings that can be derived from it.

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Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:11:58 PM

laurell3

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Yeah I don't doubt it's altruistic, although that's somewhat of a poor example because that's something you do if you happen to wander across it. Many others go out of their way to actually live altruistic lives. But it's still not "pure"...very few things are.

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:28:21 PM

SocratesNot

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I'm not insisting on purity - I am just acknowledging that altruism does exist.

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RE: Does altruism exist? - 6/15/2010 12:30:13 PM

BitaTruble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Do acts that are completely selfless exist?

Like holding open the door for a stranger who is struggling with their packages or stopping to help someone change a tire even if it means you are going to be late for an appointment? Sure. I see examples of it quite often.

quote:

Can behavior be motivated exclusively by the desire to do good to others without expecting anything in return, without even expecting "good feelings" that usually accompany selfless acts?

Sure.. compassion is a strong motivator in my world.

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