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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:35:22 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

An athiest is someone who thinks gods do not exist. Alternatively it's defined as someone who doesn't believe in a or any gods, but IMO that's a bit dodgy due to agnosticism....if agnostics are separate from athiests, and surely 'I'm not sure' doesn't count as belief....ya get my point.


Not really.
Are you an atheist?  Because I have never been told by an atheist that they think god/s do not exist.  That is more an agnostic stance 'I do not think god/s exist'.  Every atheist I have ever spoken to are pretty postive they do not have a belief 'I do not believe there is a god'.  Thinking just wouldn't cut it?

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:36:25 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Well the major stand out is you've started the 'athiests believe stuff too' argument. It's utter nonsense that's defended by arguing pointlessly about dictionary definitions.

An athiest is someone who thinks gods do not exist. Alternatively it's defined as someone who doesn't believe in a or any gods, but IMO that's a bit dodgy due to agnosticism....if agnostics are separate from athiests, and surely 'I'm not sure' doesn't count as belief....ya get my point.

Either way, it's trash to suggest that athiesm is a belief.




I don't believe a god exists. Yet I can and do have core beliefs (moral, philosophical, spiritual etc); core beliefs that weren't proven under a microscope; core beliefs that cannot be proven. Therefore I can fathom how others might have core beliefs (in WHATEVER) that also, can't be proven.

If you can wrap your mind around that, you can wrap your mind around the idea that someone might believe in Christ, even if you do not.







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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:37:29 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

And, once again he is using a sematic argument to obfuscate the orginal point that he has avoided this entire thread as well as the previous "life after death" one. Even if we all admitted to having a belief system per his web definition (which I will concede), then he would think he has won this debate, though he never addressed the atheists objection to his original 'premise,' and so this argument will reincarnate in another thread in a week or two.

Eventually the atheists will hopefully wise up and not get drawn in to these silly discussions with him.

ETA, these semantic debates are the strawmen so that he never has to address the atheists objections to his views


Exactly...although the one point left out is that a "belief system" has nothing to do with "faith".



What does a belief system have to do with? What is it based upon?


It depends on the person obviously. For atheists it is based on rational thought.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:37:53 AM   
domiguy


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I have a belief system that I don't believe in the Easter bunny.

I have a belief system that I don't believe in Santa Claus.

I have a belief system because I don't believe that big foot exists.



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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:39:36 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

brainiacsub answered for me, and answered BEFORE you continued with you nonsensical strawmaning of telling me that I MUST have a belief system under YOUR definition.

I live my life without beliefs, just as I live it without gods.

Now I AM late for work, and I promise, I'm not coming back to feed the trolls no mo'.

And for your reference, here's brainiacsub's answer.

Sorry you feel offended, Lance.  I'm not trolling, and BS's answer is simply nonsensical.

I can arrive at no other conclusion than you do not include science and logic in your belief system, and that your blindness to the differing definitions to what a "belief system" actually is, is a product of your beliefs.  You have em, and you ain't gonna listen to anything that challenges them.

Unfortunately, that is often the very attitude that atheist have, and causes the very impasse that atheists complain about.  Since they are inherently correct, anything which challenges them is obviously "straw manning" or "semantics" or whatever other excuse easily comes to hand, in order to preserve the illusion of superiority.

Not trying to be personal, or insulting, just lay out the facts as I see them.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:41:16 AM   
marie2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

And, once again he is using a sematic argument to obfuscate the orginal point that he has avoided this entire thread as well as the previous "life after death" one. Even if we all admitted to having a belief system per his web definition (which I will concede), then he would think he has won this debate, though he never addressed the atheists objection to his original 'premise,' and so this argument will reincarnate in another thread in a week or two.

Eventually the atheists will hopefully wise up and not get drawn in to these silly discussions with him.

ETA, these semantic debates are the strawmen so that he never has to address the atheists objections to his views


Exactly...although the one point left out is that a "belief system" has nothing to do with "faith".



What does a belief system have to do with? What is it based upon?


It depends on the person obviously. For atheists it is based on rational thought.


And the trust that they believe their "rational thought" is correct. Rational thought is subjective, and certainly isn't scientific proof.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:41:28 AM   
domiguy


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It is stupid...Firm cannot deal with the main point of the thread but once again focuses on any part of a discussion to derail it or to try and make some feeble point.

It is always the same. Post after post.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:43:14 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
please use short sentences and words (I'm stooopid, yanno), and tell me what "the straw man" actually is, and how I'm not addressing it.

Firm



I'm neither person that you asked... but I will try if permitted?
The issue comes from the thought that some of the atheistic peeps find you are strawmanning them by the concept of non belief is a belief.  It could be argued by them that you are presenting an informal fallacy (one that doesn't stand up to scrutiny).  Of course, for people who believe that non belief means that you believe in nothing, that isn't strawmanning!
It's one of those really confusing things really.  I don't find it necessarily as strawmanning, but more a miscommunication of what a word actually means between two different section of peoples.

It would be so cool if language could pull up a word that meant non belief - instead of just 'non belief'...

the.dark.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 6/21/2010 8:47:00 AM >


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:43:18 AM   
DCWoody


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(Of course) I'm an athiest, though I'm not overly enamoured with the label.

I phrased it like that because of agnostics. An athiest thinks gods do not exist, therefore they clearly also do not believe in gods. Agnostic can't choose....which IMO means they also do not believe in gods, but certainly doesn't mean they think gods do not exist.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:44:04 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It is stupid...Firm cannot deal with the main point of the thread but once again focuses on any part of a discussion to derail it or to try and make some feeble point.

It is always the same. Post after post.

So I'll give you the same opportunity that I've given three other atheistic posters.

Using short sentences and small words, explain to me what the atheistic argument is, exactly, and how I am "straw manning" it.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:45:58 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I have a belief system that I don't believe in the Easter bunny.

I have a belief system that I don't believe in Santa Claus.

I have a belief system because I don't believe that big foot exists.

Those are all part of your belief system.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:46:07 AM   
Jeffff


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The word atheist has negative connotations. All it really means is someone who is non-theist.

I don't believe there is now or has ever been a god.

You can lable that anyway you like.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:48:50 AM   
DCWoody


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"It would be so cool if language could pull up a word that meant non belief - instead of just 'non belief'..."

Erm....

@Firm, if you haven't got it by now you ain't gonna. I'm finishing up my part in this 'debate' now (you lost by the way).

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:52:08 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

The issue comes from the thought that some of the atheistic peeps find you are strawmanning them by the concept of non belief is a belief.  It could be argued by them that you are presenting an informal fallacy (one that doesn't stand up to scrutiny).  Of course, for people who believe that non belief means that you believe in nothing, that isn't strawmanning!
It's one of those really confusing things really.  I don't find it necessarily as strawmanning, but more a miscommunication of what a word actually means between two different section of peoples.

It would be so cool if language could pull up a word that meant non belief - instead of just 'non belief'...

Thanks, the.dark.

Of course, you are always welcome to add your comments and thoughts.

You may well be correct about what the specific "straw manning" is that they are claiming.  I'm not sure, because I don't want make an assumption, and then argue based on those assumptions (that would be straw manning? ).

However, if the disconnect in understanding between "belief" and "non-belief" is the issue, I'm more than willing to discuss it, although I do not hold out a lot of hope that I will be able to get through their blockages.

Thanks for the input.

Firm


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 8:54:17 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

(Of course) I'm an athiest, though I'm not overly enamoured with the label.

I phrased it like that because of agnostics. An athiest thinks gods do not exist, therefore they clearly also do not believe in gods. Agnostic can't choose....which IMO means they also do not believe in gods, but certainly doesn't mean they think gods do not exist.



Hah... now we are getting into semantics (we are both brits hey... I am waiting to hear that on the brit thread - pedant brits!)
To believe something, is to be postive - proof doesn't really come into it(does that make any sense?). 
I believe that there is no God - would be athiestic.  I believe in God would be religious.
I think there is no god.  I think that there is a god.  I think that there could be a possibility in gods.  These are agnostic.  They demand proof or reason.  If anything - they require academic assurence - or it's a ponderence.
Thinking is the umming and ahing - Belief is the final decision.

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 9:02:17 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

I believe that there is no God - would be athiestic. I believe in God would be religious.
true..and forgive the semantics, but a belief in God is also a faith (speaking as one who has faith but not religion).

I have been following this thread and find it depressing. My comment may seem to come out of left field, but atheism is a belief in the same way faith and religion are beliefs. To each their own and not unto others to criticize.

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 6/21/2010 9:03:26 AM >


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 9:05:31 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

****Tazzy, I am sure that you have in the past called someone an idiot or similar


I have called many people many names. But i have never labled a whole group of individuals as anything.

quote:

When I'm dissed, I remember that on average, people with religion tend to have lower IQ's, to have trouble reasoning and to obey paternalistic authority, to react irrationally, unpredictably, physically and violently, to be racist [giving preferential treatment to people of their own religion], to rape, and embezzle.


quote:

People, especially stupid people, tend to strawman everything. Religion is dumb, everyone with half a brain already knows....ya just have to ignore them as best you can and...essentially...wait for them to die. Religion's been decreasing consistently for a couple of hundred years, it will go eventually...too retarded to survive.


quote:

Smart people = less religious, stupid people = more religious, in the same way that smart people are less likely to accidentally set themselves on fire. Setting yourself on fire isn't a CAUSE of stupidity, it's a SIGN of stupidity. Anyone who sets themselves on fire by mistake....probably not too sharp. Not being religious doesn't cause you to be more intelligent, being more intelligent causes you to be less religious.


quote:

just from thinking about the people you know if you don't want to give creedence to any studies, religious people & stupid people are in most cases the same group.



quote:

religion is primarily a result of stupidity, not a cause.


quote:

Usually I just stick with the whole 'there is no god, numbnuts' thing (see pic), but the hypocrisy of so many people who claim to follow x religion, when really they just call themselves that to have a widely used label and follow their own rules...it annoys me. At least fundamentalists make sense:they're just stupid &/or ill educated.


quote:

Re the last part, like I said, I use the nonsensical claim of god to 'condemn' religious people.


quote:

The atheist has faith in the reasonableness of his conclusion. Two very different uses of the word. Knowingly or not, you are conflating the two meanings for rhetorical purposes. A bit of sophism in your argument.


I missed this one earlier. Vincent, both have faith in their position. I have faith there is a higher power. What that power is, i dont know. An atheist has faith there isnt. I see no difference in the use of the word "faith".

quote:

To whatever degree most Christians are willing to admit their belief system is one of faith is often overshadowed by the need to convince non believers of the parity between faith and reason, especially scientfiic reason. I see it as a desperate tactic to remain relevent among increasingly skeptical younger generations who are rejecting organized religion as scientific discovery becomes more mainstream and accepted as fact.


Ah, now we go from religion to organized religion. One does not need to be a part of an organized religion to have religion or be a religious person. As a side note, it seems the argument here is against christians, yet there are many religions and organized religions in the world. Again, it seems atheists are trying a "one size fits all" argument... and that wont wash.

quote:

Maybe that's because athiesm isn't ruining mankind, but religion is incredibly stupid?


quote:

ITT - Religious people strawman the ever living fuck out of athiesm


Woody, bet you can pick out your own quotes from this list. You have a bad habit when dealing with religion of lumping everyone into that tightly designed box you created. Problem is, people dont fit into boxes.

You seem to believe religious people are stupid. Many a scientists, Dr, researcher have a religious foundation, many are religious themselves. But that doesnt fit into your nice little box.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 9:09:34 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
However, if the disconnect in understanding between "belief" and "non-belief" is the issue, I'm more than willing to discuss it, although I do not hold out a lot of hope that I will be able to get through their blockages.

Thanks for the input.

Firm



I'm not an atheist, so I can only answer as someone who sits outside that box (actually - all the boxes really)... it might be that the problem stems from the concept of 'non belief'.  The only other word that can be used, would be disbelief and then that would fit much better.  Non belief gives into the concept that to not believe in a god, means you have to believe there isn't one.  But that in turn gives god substance - but that's not what some atheists want or try to do because to them, there is no god.  Disbelief is a much better word that doesn't suggest that there is a belief that there is no belief, but that there is no god.
(I don't know if I am making any sense here - I know what I am trying to say so forgive me if I am just confusing matters)

the.dark.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 6/21/2010 9:11:04 AM >


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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 9:15:46 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

I believe that there is no God - would be athiestic. I believe in God would be religious.
true..and forgive the semantics, but a belief in God is also a faith (speaking as one who has faith but not religion).


I totally dont find that semantic at all holly.  I was trying to be all inclusive when I said 'religious'.  I first put 'christian' but that seemed wrong to just single it out.  Maybe 'spirtual' would fit better, because not all those that believe in a god or gods are going to be christian.  Argh... either way... I'm damned...

the.dark.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/21/2010 9:23:43 AM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

... but atheism is a belief in the same way faith and religion are beliefs. To each their own and not unto others to criticize.

If you have actually been reading this thread, and the one julia started that spawned this one, then you would know that your statement has been shown to be false. You are making the same claim Firm and Treasure have made, and a dozen people are trying to show them the logical fallacy of such a statement. The fallacy is one of equivocation, and Firm is out here trying to argue the semantics of "faith" and "belief."

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