RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance

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mnottertail -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 11:01:13 AM)
LOLOLOL, That's just me, I guess. Ron

mnottertail -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 11:06:59 AM)
I have had some posts pulled for being too dramatic. All cursing and no substance, LOL. Perhaps I am just too earthy. But If Adolph Hitler ever had a son, he would be proud to name him Henry Kissinger. RON

caitlyn -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 11:29:56 AM)
The Moskit (Sunburn) is nasty, but has a pretty short range. International waters being what they are, there is no doubt that Iran could get something close enough to a bettle group to launch missiles at it. They would get some hits, and probably sink an escort ship or two. Then, the Americans would pull back out of the Moskits range, and just unload on Iran. I know I'm sounding like a arrogant, U.S. homer ... but that's just not it at all. I'm just one of the few people in this discussion that seems to understand that the United States does in fact get to shoot back, and has an overwhelming amount of stuff to shoot back with. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the military gap between the U.S. and everyone else is not closing ... it's widening, and widening very quickly. Look at some of the new weapons in the United States' inventory ... supersonic stealth fighters, and warships with the radar signature of fishing boats. This isn't going to last. The United States can't afford to keep building like this, and eventually other countries will catch up. The United States isn't better than anyone else, and has no monopoly on technology. But ... here today, right now, the United States has a huge military edge, and will probably maintain for quite some time.

mnottertail -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 11:56:16 AM)
And as I have mentioned repeatedly, while trashing others opinions, star wars will not last forever, seems like there will be a bottom of the barrel somewhere, dealing mostly with financial instruments. While we are set up to invade and throw tons and tons of steel at other countries every fuckin' day, we are not really prepared for an invasion of our country (in terms of infrastructure) but it is no matter, we are permitting the slow undoing of america by draining our monetary resources on things that are of little longlasting value. Kinda like buying twinkies and chips with a 21.5% credit card. Never fear, just as Japan did, China will hold the debt. They have no need to go to war with us, the are a learned people. Kinda like the indian gaming casinos.... send indians to law school......find a way to exist and prosper. Ron (edit: Become the marshmallow, grasshopper!)

Riff -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 1:22:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Military intervention defines an empire. If it was Rome instead of the US would Cuba exist as an autonomous country? "Pressure" can never be as strong as military power. Economic Imperialsim is a recognised form of empire and has been in existence for as cultures have had intercourse. It is not necessarily based on military might at all. Witness the British in South America who with almost no miliary influence controlled the entire continent for a hundred years.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 2:13:56 PM)
quote: Economic Imperialsim is a recognised form of empire and has been in existence for as cultures have had intercourse. It is not necessarily based on military might at all. Witness the British in South America who with almost no miliary influence controlled the entire continent for a hundred years. Riff, You'll have to define the period in South American history that you are speaking, but even as recently as the 1982 Falkland War, British military action was used in South America. In the past the threat of British retaliation was enough to keep the locals in line. Commerce with Britain wasn't suggested in colonial times it was demanded. India, and British repression of Indian industry is a recent example. India would have to export all it's natural resources and crops to England where it was manufactured, processed, and sold back to the citizens of India. You'll have to site something similar currently being enforced by the US before I'd give consideration to your point. I can't think of anyplace where an industry is being repressed by the US so that US goods can be sold. There is no "national" corporation of any kind in the US except one - the military. The US is distinct in that regard. In the US, Bank of America is a name. The Bank of England is an accurate reflection of that institution as well as it's name. You can not have an economic empire when the empire owns no industry. Very few, if any, countries place lower import tariffs on US goods than we place on theirs. No US industries or imports of consequence are excluded from being imported to the US. Cuban cigars are a notable exception. But if you wanted a 'Virginia Baked Ham' and lived in Italy - you couldn't buy it in an Italian grocery store; while here, imported prosciutto, salami, and cappocola, sits on the shelf. I doubt you'd consider Italy an "economic" empire for it's hams.

Chaingang -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 2:48:21 PM)
Caitlyn: Can the U.S. strike at China with impunity? Why, or why not? Your answer to this will reveal what there is to know about emerging superpowers - at least I hope so. [8\|]

cloudboy -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 5:20:49 PM)
If the US spends itself into the ground by beefing up the military during peacetime, its hard for me to see the upside. Compromising our economic might and the fiscal stability of our gov't ain't worth the weaponry we will eventually maroon in the AZ desert.

DelightMachine -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 6:13:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy If the US spends itself into the ground by beefing up the military during peacetime, its hard for me to see the upside. One upside: Being able to bomb Afghanistan with bombers that took off from Nebraska and never touched ground again till they returned to Nebraska. And topple the government of a landlocked country on the other side of the world pretty damn fast. I think toppling that government really helped our security -- it seems to have kept Al Qaeda off balance enough so they couldn't hit back within this country. It's the only explanation I can think of for why we haven't been hit with another atrocity on our shores.

JohnWarren -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 6:21:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy If the US spends itself into the ground by beefing up the military during peacetime, its hard for me to see the upside. Compromising our economic might and the fiscal stability of our gov't ain't worth the weaponry we will eventually maroon in the AZ desert. Vegetius said it best: "Si vis pacem, para bellum." Sidenote: he didn't say "and then start one" (Added for the Bushites who seem to have missed the point.)

subrob1967 -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 6:40:13 PM)
Nobody mentioned Japan as a upcoming superpower? They're talking about going nuke. As for the population explosion, the upcoming bird flu should kill off about 18% or so of the Earth's population, once it jumps to humans.

caitlyn -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 6:59:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang Can the U.S. strike at China with impunity? With impunity ... obviously not. I'm not sure what your point is. You could read history from now until eternity and never find a nation that passes this test.

mnottertail -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 7:08:40 PM)
Well, wait until the last couple years hit the 6th grade western civilization texts, that is both impunity and imprudent. Ron

caitlyn -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 7:17:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy If the US spends itself into the ground by beefing up the military during peacetime, its hard for me to see the upside. Compromising our economic might and the fiscal stability of our gov't ain't worth the weaponry we will eventually maroon in the AZ desert. Vegetius said it best: "Si vis pacem, para bellum." Sidenote: he didn't say "and then start one" (Added for the Bushites who seem to have missed the point.) As usual, your points are very well thought out Mr. Warren. Part of the difficulty with this discussion is the way people instantly make militarists out of anyone simply speaking the cold hard facts. I think war is to be avoided if at all possible. I think this war in Iraq is very foolish. I think we should try to work with other nations towards the end of gaining peaceful solutions to our problems. That said, there is a concept that is hard to dispute, although many will try. When you read history, you can't help notice that militarily strong nations, can survive corruption, economic disaster, madman leadership, natural disasters, degenerate societies, poor political skill, and many other things. You also notice the militarily weak, not surviving very long. at all. The idea that corrupt businesses, poor political skill, etc, etc, etc ... will doom the United States, is very possible, but according to history, not probably, while we have such a strong military.

JohnWarren -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 7:35:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang Can the U.S. strike at China with impunity? With impunity ... obviously not. I'm not sure what your point is. You could read history from now until eternity and never find a nation that passes this test. Hell, in international affairs, nothing can be done with impunity. Even a good deed like sending poor old Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov home in a private railroad car had some ramifications.

mnottertail -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 7:50:15 PM)
I finally got over my inheirent lethargy and pulled out, "The Art of War" by SunTzu (Lam may stop by this thread and give you the particulars, but it is claimed that his name was Wu, and that is some doubtful....much like a Russian novel, to many names like Ivanovitch or Miska.. Anyway, some of you may care to read it because I double goddamn guarentee you the chinese have been reading it for centuries and spend some time living by it in one form or another.. Couple excerpts -- The art of war is of vital importance to the state. It is a matter of life and death, a road to safety or ruin. Hence under no circumstances can it be neglected. ... Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. ... When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, their weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength, and if the campaing is protracted, the resources of the state will not be equal to the strain. Never forget: When your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted, and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue. ...In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefitted from prolonged warfare. ... (This was written somewhere between 300-500 b.c. I still find it sound and truthful.) From the bible, perhaps before or after this time (paraphrased).. No man sets out to build a house until he has considered the foundation, and whether or not he has the werewithal to complete it, otherwise his foundation crumbles or he is left with an unfinished house. He then becomes the laughingstock of his neighbors. Still in the area, and for UR's enjoyment, let us direct our attention to Nguyen Cao Ky a little exerpt .. Ky's withdrawal from the race left Thieu running unopposed. According to some sources, the "sham election" of 1971 was the main reason why many - including U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger - lost any remaining illusions that credible democratic institutions could be established in South Vietnam. If Hank couldn't see it, I gotta tell ya............ So Nguyen (for some of you it is most nearly pronounced New-IN) last I heard was running a liqour store in California. Saw some news snippet today, we are gonna put lasers (very close in use and size to photon torpedoes on airplanes) I think some can tell you that during a not so recent dust up in French Indochina we could pick out tossed cigarette butt brands from about 27,000 feet. Give me 50 bucks and a round trip to california. Osama Bin Lauden is drinking at Ngyuen's Rusty Nail Bar and Grill in Glenwood-Ingelwood. Or he will be. Ron

UtopianRanger -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 8:32:59 PM)
quote: Can the U.S. strike at China with impunity? Why, or why not? Not to answer for Caitlyn, but the old theory of ''mutually assured destruction’’ does not apply to the PLA, as they’re quite willing to sacrifice a large portion of their own population – They could lose 800 million people and still be okay – Obviously, we can’t say the same over here. The only real deterrent we have is not a nuclear deterrent, but instead, A direct deterrent ; DIRECTLY AT THE PLA LEADERSHIP {Decapitation} Instead of killing their population or ‘’wasting’’ cities,{A useless endeavor}, We’d directly target their leadership first. Incredibly accurate Tomahawk cruise missiles would hunt them, their whole families, their pets, and even their ‘’knock-off’’ Jeep Cherokees. And for those who escaped the Tomahawks, every time they popped their head out of a door, they’d have to worry about a Predator or Global Hawk {Remote controlled UAV’s} targeting them from above with GPS/heat seeking missiles – Think about the stress that would cause anyone, even someone who thought they were previously invincible. This is one of the great drawbacks to a totalitarian regime ; There’s a very limited chain of command. The leadership doesn’t trust anyone {especially from within}….so most of the military is compartmentalized; they’re not trained to fight together. Once you destroy their command, the rest of it freezes up. It’s kinda funny….. the other day I heard one of my favorite defense policy analysts characterize the Chinese leadership as a cross between Marxism and the Sapranos : If you take out Tony, that’s it, the whole thing starts to crumble from the inside.[;)] - R

Lordandmaster -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 9:29:46 PM)
I really don't agree with that. China isn't a dictatorship. Who is their Tony? quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger It’s kinda funny….. the other day I heard one of my favorite defense policy analysts characterize the Chinese leadership as a cross between Marxism and the Sapranos : If you take out Tony, that’s it, the whole thing starts to crumble from the inside.[;)]

UtopianRanger -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/17/2006 11:37:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I really don't agree with that. China isn't a dictatorship. Who is their Tony? ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger It’s kinda funny….. the other day I heard one of my favorite defense policy analysts characterize the Chinese leadership as a cross between Marxism and the Sapranos : If you take out Tony, that’s it, the whole thing starts to crumble from the inside. Hu Jintao or Liang Guanglie - Pick your poison [8\|] - R

ArtCatDom -> RE: Emerging Superpowers the downfall of American dominance (4/18/2006 5:42:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang Caitlyn: Can the U.S. strike at China with impunity? Why, or why not? Your answer to this will reveal what there is to know about emerging superpowers - at least I hope so. [8\|] We can't without being utterly stupid. The reason why is four simple little letters: ICBM meow

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