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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/4/2010 8:23:16 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
so what youre saying is that alot of the male subs are probably bottoms in orientation, if only to start with.  learning submission is a bit like learning to walk, its there but you have to have a few goes before youre up and runing.


I've heard that a lot, but I don't think that accounts for it.



Well said, Anda! Really, I think the core issue is that we are dealing with a lot of selfish jerks wanting fantasy fulfillment, and they are blocking the way for the guys that we really want to talk to.


Went thru this thread three times, and i think ... lally2 's ... post, in the middle of the quotes above, was meant in response to Rochsub2009's comments ....

And if so, then You both (Anda and Lady Hib) might be misinterpreting ...

What i am thinking ...

Is that what lally2 has summarized .. is in fact a legitimate, honest method for a male, to learn to become submissive.

The early comments on this thread ... were about this ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

what, if any resources are there to help a male sub understand and learn about this and why do you suppose they apparently get it so wrong much of the time.


Subsequent to a VERY NECESSARY intervention by the Administrator(s) and Moderator(s) ..

as well as deletion of some good posts ...

the tone of the thread changed.

No real issue here, since all is important, but i am thinking, perhaps, apples and oranges are getting mixed up

Since the original quote was before intervention ... and the comments later were after ... perhaps the points made don't sound right to you now ...

Just saying ...





< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 7/4/2010 8:42:41 PM >

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/4/2010 9:36:53 PM   
cloudboy


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I've never really experienced frustration, b/c I'm usually satisfied with whatever connection evolves from my curiosity in others.

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/4/2010 10:58:07 PM   
Wickad


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Greetings seekingOwnertoo,

Thank you for reiterating your original question.

Perhaps my original post delved a bit off par but the point I was trying to make was that many Dominant woman have been, and are, willing to take a new submissive under their wing and help him to find a compatible partner (even if that compatible partner is not them). That being said, for some reason, many new male submissives don't seem to understand that someone is helping them and that they should try to learn from her. Many are busy trying to fit said 'friendly Dominant' into the mold of their own fantasies. If these new folks would just slow down for a moment and realize that the person taking the time to talk to them, meet for a coffee, or go to events with on a friendly basis was their best resource maybe there wouldn't be so many threads on this (and other sites) that speak to disillusioned Dominant woman and submissive men who just 'don't get it'.

I hope this is more on point and makes a bit more sense than my original comment.

Wickad

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/5/2010 9:12:20 AM   
Andalusite


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SO2, I wasn't responding to lally's original post, but to the concept that bottoms are inherently selfish and have no relationship skills. I think that's an insult to the bottoms who are good, caring, wonderful men. Someone can yearn for control, but still be a creep who doesn't really see Dommes as human beings with needs, emotions, and desires that fall outside of the narrow slot he is determined to squeeze her into.

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/5/2010 9:11:01 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

SO2, I wasn't responding to lally's original post, but to the concept that bottoms are inherently selfish and have no relationship skills. I think that's an insult to the bottoms who are good, caring, wonderful men. Someone can yearn for control, but still be a creep who doesn't really see Dommes as human beings with needs, emotions, and desires that fall outside of the narrow slot he is determined to squeeze her into.


sorry A ... misunderstood ... see it more clearly, now!

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 5:13:02 AM   
hardbodysub


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quote:

HBS, some men are simply undateable, regardless of orientation. I doubt many submissive or vanilla women would put up with someone who treats her like a blow-up doll, either.

Obviously.

quote:

From what I can tell, there's much more skew toward power dynamics on the forums than on the personals side.

That's exactly what I was saying.

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 8:45:27 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
after yet another thread from a newbie male sub getting frustrated in his search for a fem Domme im wondering at the disparity between what they are looking for and their understanding of the fem Domme as a woman looking for a man as a submissive partner.


I think it can be summed up as, "Socially clueless people don't get dates, at least not second dates." 

You cannot substitute kink for the basics of human relationships and social skills.  When you try, when you treat people like cardboard cut-outs from a fetish magazine instead of like people, it does not bode well for forming or maintaining actual relationships.  Shallow, one-time interactions (such as scripted professional sessions) can do this successfully, but if you are unable or unwilling to get to know a person as a person first and a fetish delivery system second, there is no real human relationship.  There's just you and your kink, and at that point, you might as well get a RealDoll. 

"Submissive" men who consistently think of women as fetish delivery systems rather than as fellow human beings are unable to form real relationships.  It's exclusively about them and their kink, and it's not about having a partner whom they actually like and respect as a person.  No surprise, they don't find women who want to play that role except in the short term for money.  It's not much different when it comes to vanilla guys who only see women as vaginas with legs and can't relate to them as human beings.

For personal partners, my screening filter is "friends first". As in, strictly vanilla, nonsexual buddy-buddy friends who can laugh and enjoy one another's company because we have that much in common. If a guy can't do that, if he's bewildered at the thought of relating to a dominant woman as a human being, then most likely the only way he's getting play from me is as a client.  If I don't have my pro shingle out at the time, or if he's the wrong kind of client for what I do, then he's out of luck completely and must go find a less selective pro domme who will take his money. 

BDSM does not make it okay to toss the basic stuff about human relationships and social skills out the window and replace it with insta-kink.  Guys who think it does will probably be alone until they start thinking more with the big head than the little one.

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 7:47:07 PM   
ciaphascain


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What I find funny is when women say that they want to be 'friends' first with a man before anything else. That is utter bullshit! Any man who has ever gotten into the friends zone with a woman he was interested in knows this truth. Once a man is put into the friends zone, several things happen. 1) He is automatically judged and labeled a certain way which means he is now viewed as something other than a potential mate, 2) He becomes the late night phone call guy who is dependable enough to be there when the woman is crying about her actual badboy boyfriend cheating on her, abusing her, etc., 3) He becomes a 'special' guy friend who listens and cares about her. That means she will not want to lose that 'special' quality in their friendship by trying to have an actual relationship with him.

So no, any woman who says that they want a man as a friend first is being completely delusional. I have never met any man who could say they successfully moved out of the friend zone. It simply does not happen. Just as I have never met a woman who could say they were friends first with a man before getting serious.

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 8:21:57 PM   
BalletBob


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I guess I must be the only sub in the world, not being a sub, for sex. I do it for the fun and enjoyment of it, mine and of course, the Mistress.

I do know the frustration you go through, and as soon as a Pretty Young Lady comes on here, they get swamped by the same Sex Starved subs. Get a life, wieners.

As is, with no warrenty, sub BalletBob

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 8:44:32 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ciaphascain
What I find funny is when women say that they want to be 'friends' first with a man before anything else. That is utter bullshit! Any man who has ever gotten into the friends zone with a woman he was interested in knows this truth. Once a man is put into the friends zone, several things happen. 1) He is automatically judged and labeled a certain way which means he is now viewed as something other than a potential mate, 2) He becomes the late night phone call guy who is dependable enough to be there when the woman is crying about her actual badboy boyfriend cheating on her, abusing her, etc., 3) He becomes a 'special' guy friend who listens and cares about her. That means she will not want to lose that 'special' quality in their friendship by trying to have an actual relationship with him.


No idea who you've been hanging out with, or why, but that's not how life works where I'm from, not at all.

quote:

So no, any woman who says that they want a man as a friend first is being completely delusional. I have never met any man who could say they successfully moved out of the friend zone. It simply does not happen. Just as I have never met a woman who could say they were friends first with a man before getting serious.


I have never, ever had a sexual, romantic or BDSM play relationship, serious or otherwise that did not start out with a friendship.  Not once.  And I doubt I ever will.  Everyone else I know does it the same way, and thinks the other way you are describing is silly or delusional or ridiculous. 

I have a feeling you've never hung out in geek/nerd/cypherpunk/fannish culture, or you wouldn't be stuck in that mindset.   Trust me, we *all* do it that way in this culture.  Mundane dating and romantic relationships that are not based on a solid friendship are weird and silly to me, and mostly they seem to be deeply lacking in the kind of bond and the depth of communication that genuine friendship creates.  I can't do relationships that way.

Also, when real friendship is the base of the relationship, in my experience that remains even if the romance dies.  We still treat each other with liking and respect even when we realize we are growing apart as a couple.  I have very good relationships with all of my exes, which is nice as it's a small BDSM community.

Honestly, I don't mean to be as rude as you were in expressing your views, but the way you seem to think romance should be done looks totally weird, artificial, fucked up, inherently deceptive and game playing to me.  Love *has* to start with liking and friendship for me, or it won't start at all.  I could never love a man who could not be my friend or who did not want to be my friend.  I could not even imagine dating a man I did not like as a friend, no matter how hot he was.  There is no such thing for me as a "friend zone" that excludes romance.  There is such a thing as a "can't or won't be my friend zone" that definitely does exclude romance.  Everyone who thinks like you is in that zone for me, because they don't believe in, let alone understand, how real friendship is a solid basis for true love.


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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 9:13:30 PM   
ciaphascain


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quote:

I have a feeling you've never hung out in geek/nerd/cypherpunk/fannish culture, or you wouldn't be stuck in that mindset.


Your right about that and thank god for it! I could not stand to look at myself in the mirror if I was involved with a fannish culture like the one you are describing!

So... my mentality is strange, wierd, fucked up, etc. etc.? Really? Lets just do a quick internet search on the "friends zone" and see whats out there in the world.

Avoid The Friend Zone
Avoid The Friend Zone

Escaping The Friends Zone
Escaping The Friends Zone

How To Escape The Friends Zone in 9 Quick Steps
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-To-Escape-The-Friends-Zone-In-9-Quick-Steps&id=581791

Friend Zone
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Friend_Zone

Avoiding Friends Zone
http://www.attractology.com/2009/02/avoiding-friends-zone/

Wow! The listing can go on and on and on for page after page PROVING that I am not the only man out there who feels this way and knows that what I say is the truth! So I guess all the rest of the world is wrong and you in your little 'geek/nerd/cypherpunk/fannish culture' are correct, huh?

Quote: "Everyone else I know does it the same way, and thinks the other way you are describing is silly or delusional or ridiculous."

So... let me get this straight.. You asked everyone you know about my perspective and what I had to say in 57 minutes? That was how long it took you to post a reply to my message. If it only took you 57 minutes to ASK all your friends then I have to question just how many friends you have in the first place. I also have to wonder if they are all internet friends or part of that winning group of 'geek/nerd/cypherpunk/fannish culture'. After all, we all know that people in groups like that are about as successful in life as people who are fully involved with Renassaince or SCA groups. So if we based your opinions and the opinions of your alleged friends who all mysteriously read, looked at and formed an opinion on my posting in 57 minutes around a largely boring, unproductive and socially uncontributing group then this should somehow be the truth of the world? Or is it that your truth is the only truth? Hmm?


< Message edited by ciaphascain -- 7/6/2010 9:15:04 PM >

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 9:29:11 PM   
Andalusite


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I have had relationships with men who I was friends with first, but usually either they were dating someone or I was, or they just didn't approach me romantically for a while. Once they let me know they were interested, I had to find out whether or not we had chemistry before deciding whether or not to date. On a dating site, I don't actively look for friends, especially since a lot of guys seem to use that to mean "friends with benefits." If someone turns into a friend, wonderful. If we're interested in dating each other, I'll generally start out in dating mode, not "friends mode." However, if someone isn't interested in me as a person, including sharing some hobbies and interests and getting along with each others' friends, I'm not going to be romantically interested in him. Men I meet in person through shared vanilla interests are more likely to become friends before we start dating, but it just doesn't seem to translate to online very well in most cases.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 7/6/2010 9:30:06 PM >

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 10:02:04 PM   
hopelesslyInvo


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i've run into the friends issue before, but it's completely different from keeping things platonic in the beginning while giving romantic interests more time to develop.


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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/6/2010 11:18:52 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ciaphascain
Your right about that and thank god for it! I could not stand to look at myself in the mirror if I was involved with a fannish culture like the one you are describing!


Chacun a son gout

quote:

So... my mentality is strange, wierd, fucked up, etc. etc.? Really? Lets just do a quick internet search on the "friends zone" and see whats out there in the world.


I think mainstream mentality about how men and women are supposed to relate is pretty fucked up and broken, yes.  Mostly because this meme involves deception and social game playing rather than honest communication, genuine mutual respect, liking and friendship.  I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror with any semblance of self respect if I treated other human beings the way women are "supposed" to treat men that they are romantically interested in. 


quote:

Wow! The listing can go on and on and on for page after page PROVING that I am not the only man out there who feels this way and knows that what I say is the truth! So I guess all the rest of the world is wrong and you in your little 'geek/nerd/cypherpunk/fannish culture' are correct, huh?


There is no right or wrong in how you choose to relate to the gender of your romantic choice.  There's only what works and doesn't work for your particular set of wiring.  It would be no more right for me to operate the way you do than for you to attempt to be gay if you are wired to be straight, or vice versa.  The issue isn't that I think your viewpoint is not a common one; it's that it does not work for me and is not true for me, nor for any of the smart and non-stereotyping people I know. 


quote:

After all, we all know that people in groups like that are about as successful in life as people who are fully involved with Renassaince or SCA groups. So if we based your opinions and the opinions of your alleged friends who all mysteriously read, looked at and formed an opinion on my posting in 57 minutes around a largely boring, unproductive and socially uncontributing group then this should somehow be the truth of the world? Or is it that your truth is the only truth? Hmm?


You're actually the only one on this thread stating that your truth is the only truth.  I'm telling you that you are wrong when it comes to intelligent, geeky/kinky women who do not buy into the social stereotypes about how men and women can't be friends. They absolutely can be, and it works very, very well for us to find sexual and romantic partners primarily on that basis.  If you don't happen to meet a lot of women who fit this description because you're not a counterculture type yourself, then you'll probably see exactly the attitudes and behavior that you describe in mainstream society.  If you do know people who think like this, you will see a lot of men and women who are best friends as well as lovers.  It's a beautiful sight.  I'm sorry you haven't seen it, but you look very silly when you try to tell us that it doesn't exist. 

I know quite a lot of people who do Faire professionally or participate regularly the SCA who have advanced degrees and have achieved quite a bit in terms of real life success.  Nerdiness pays these days, and sometimes it pays very well indeed.  Smart people enjoy having creative fun, and there's nothing wrong with that.  You're actually revealing far more about yourself with your "I hate nerds" diatribe than you could ever say about us.

Geek pride FTW.  What can I say.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 7/6/2010 11:20:06 PM >


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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/7/2010 4:49:21 AM   
ciaphascain


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So... I take it that you have never actually sat down with these people in REAL LIFE or been to any real life events huh? Let me tell you something, when I was younger I used to get dragged to DnD games, Vampire the Masquerade Live Action, Magic the Gathering events, Cyber Punk tournements, Rifts games, weekend long SCA tournements, etc. All of which confirmed quite a bit for me that yes these people had wonderful imaginations, but for the most part they were unsuccessful in life. They were so focused on getting their level 20 Warlock/druid to the next level, or spending all their minimum wage earnings on the next booster card packs instead of paying their rent, or getting their vampire to commit diablerie on their elder, that they never really focused on anything else. I have seen people get evicted because they just had to have that authentic 15th century replica viking tent instead of paying their bills and utilities, or people lose their children because they spent more time playing games with their friends instead of keeping and maintaining jobs, and the list goes on. In the meantime, I kept getting dragged to places like Pennsic Wars year after year, or Baronial Border Wars, and the only thing these places ever showed me was that the people were uncouth, very, very low-income, oftentimes illiterate and almost always focused on their own little fantasy world.

So pardon me if I do not have a great opinion of gamers, renaissance fair attendees and the seemingly large percentage of them whose biggest goals in life seem to be spending what little money they have inappropriately or playing games that have no bearing on anything real. Pardon me if I think a large group of socially unacceptable people who more or less do not pay taxes, positively contribute anything socially, or make any attempt to further themselves with education all do not have my respect. Pardon me if I think less of them because they deem it necessary to do nothing with their lives beyond using their over active imaginations to create flights of fantasy. Pardon me if I think people who cannot even hold a job down or have a decent conversation involving something other than their fantasy, are all people whose opinions by and large I scoff at. But hey if you want to surround yourself with people who will never have anything more than what they have now in life, then by all means go for it. But do not try to convince me these are people with merit who somehow miraculously have stumbled upon the key to social awareness, happiness and successful relationship methods.



< Message edited by ciaphascain -- 7/7/2010 4:53:18 AM >

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/7/2010 4:58:19 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ciaphascain

So... I take it that you have never actually sat down with these people in REAL LIFE or been to any real life events huh? Let me tell you something, when I was younger I used to get dragged to DnD games, Vampire the Masquerade Live Action, Magic the Gathering events, Cyber Punk tournements, Rifts games, weekend long SCA tournements, etc. All of which confirmed quite a bit for me that yes these people had wonderful imaginations, but for the most part they were unsuccessful in life. They were so focused on getting their level 20 Warlock/druid to the next level, or spending all their minimum wage earnings on the next booster card packs instead of paying their rent, or getting their vampire to commit diablerie on their elder, that they never really focused on anything else. I have seen people get evicted because they just had to have that authentic 15th century replica viking tent instead of paying their bills and utilities, or people lose their children because they spent more time playing games with their friends instead of keeping and maintaining jobs, and the list goes on. In the meantime, I kept getting dragged to places like Pennsic Wars year after year, or Baronial Border Wars, and the only thing these places ever showed me was that the people were uncouth, very, very low-income, oftentimes illiterate and almost always focused on their own little fantasy world.

So pardon me if I do not have a great opinion of gamers, renaissance fair attendees and the seemingly large percentage of them whose biggest goals in life seem to be spending what little money they have inappropriately or playing games that have no bearing on anything real. Pardon me if I think a large group of socially unacceptable people who more or less do not pay taxes, positively contribute anything socially, or make any attempt to further themselves with education all do not have my respect. Pardon me if I think less of them because they deem it necessary to do nothing with their lives beyond using their over active imaginations to create flights of fantasy. Pardon me if I think people who cannot even hold a job down or have a decent conversation involving something other than their fantasy, are all people whose opinions by and large I scoff at. But hey if you want to surround yourself with people who will never have anything more than what they have now in life, then by all means go for it. But do not try to convince me these are people with merit who somehow miraculously have stumbled upon the key to social awareness, happiness and successful relationship methods.




wow, all that anger. And from what you said it is based solely on your interactions with your friends. Have you ever thought about finding a new group of peeps to hang with? As much as you are fighting the idea, there are a lot of women out there who want to be friends before lovers. It's a shame you haven't learned this yet, but maybe someday. In the mean time, step away from the computer games. If it is true that "In the meantime, I kept getting dragged to places like Pennsic Wars year after year," then maybe it's time to grow a pair and just say no.


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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/7/2010 5:25:20 AM   
ciaphascain


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You really need to read my posting CORRECTLY before quoting me there, buddy!. Original quote and this is right on LINE 2 of my first paragraph: "Let me tell you something, when I was younger I used to get dragged to DnD games, Vampire the Masquerade Live Action, Magic the Gathering events, Cyber Punk tournements, Rifts games, weekend long SCA tournements, etc. "

Notice the key word, YOUNGER? When I was younger? Hint, hint, hint. Learn to fucking read the post correctly before leaping to conclusions or butting your nose into an argument you are not properly prepared to comment on. Christ, nothing worse than an ignorant person attempting an argument BEFORE they actually have read what was originally said.


Don't you think I threw all these bums out and kicked them to the curb? Hell yeah. Over ten years ago! By not immersing myself in that idiotic culture I now have my own $325,000 house payed off, own my own property, drive a 2009 Chevy Camaro, have no outstanding debts and have recently begun getting into metal investment. I have my Masters Degree in Business Administration and will be completing my BA in Foreign Marketing Investment in April. Now guess how many of those people I knew from 10 years ago who have done all of that? Not a single one of them. They are all still losers, bums and dregs on society and will never be anything more than what they are now. In the meantime I get to explore interests like hang gliding, rock climbing, going on vacations when I want, visiting museums, meeting interesting and motivated people, getting involved with volunteerism, etc..

But now I am off to go do something that most of these people won't do... work! Unlike a large percentage of them I actually have a career that I am proud of! So now off to work where I do not have to worry about job security, whether or not I am 15 minutes late and where my office staff will be getting ready for Fridays company party.

< Message edited by ciaphascain -- 7/7/2010 5:28:06 AM >

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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/7/2010 8:48:57 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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So let me get this straight....you were hanging out with bottom of the barrel losers and not bothering to screen for criteria like adult responsibility when you picked your friends.  That strategy will get you nowhere whether you are hanging out with D&D players, frat boys, sports fans or people who use recreational drugs.  If all you see around you are the losers, you won't see much else, or achieve much else.

Every society has its dregs, and it looks like you found that out when you were younger by making bad choices.  But dregs don't generally make up the whole of a society, nor even its majority.  Frankly I've seen far more dysfunctional, clueless or just plain stupid people who were mainstream than otherwise.   I've lived in the geek/nerd/cypherpunk/fannish subculture literally all my life, and while I'm aware of the fact that there are some dysfunctional people in it, the folks I have personally chosen to spend time with have invariably been the seriously smart ones with advanced degrees and good jobs.  Eg, the types who work for NASA during the week and do tourneys on weekends.

They're pretty successful, too.  Except that they don't feel the need to brag about the car they drive or their expensive house and how much they hate nerds.  That's something only the most insecure and unpleasant people need to do, and the folks I hang around with are better than that.


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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/7/2010 9:22:33 AM   
OttersSwim


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The most important things in life aren't things... 

You say you have all these things and yet you give the perception of one filled with anger, scorn for people who offered you friendship, and filled with large negative generalizations about those around you.

And yet, here you are posting on a BDSM dating site...  Something's gotta be missing in your life, eh? 

Meaningful connections with people perhaps?

I hope all your things make you happy... 


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RE: frustrated male subs - 7/7/2010 9:31:16 AM   
AAkasha


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Joined: 11/27/2004
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ciaphascain, I think the point is missing is that you don't have to become "buddies" necessarily in the sense that LadyNT describes (although that works in many cases), but men have to realize that dominant women don't dominate arbitrarily, even though in a man's fantasy, they do.  Even those of us that prefer to seduce, "chase," even corrupt men on our terms, we don't just take the random guy who offered him up.  We gravitate toward men we are attracted to --and attraction requires some flirtation, some common interests, and shared experiences.

Also, the theme I see again and again (in my case VERY much so) is that dominant women are, almost across the board, attracted to *competence*.  There's no better way for a man to demonstrate he's capable of something and has pride in that "something" than in shared experiences -- mutual hobbies, for example. 

And let's face it.  A woman isn't going to be attracted to a man she cannot befriend.  You are mixing up the whole "dreaded friends" category with the basic reality that most couples who are longterm are also - for the most part - 'best friends.'  A man incapable of knowing when a woman just doesn't have the balls to say "I am not physically attracted to you, so our relationship will be platonic - forever" and then carrying the torch for her -- well, he needs to just protect his own interests.

Akasha


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(in reply to ciaphascain)
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