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RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:00:40 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Hiring illegals is illegal



That's my point exactly....If it's illegal.....the theroy is that no one should be doing it, whatever it is. 

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:03:05 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
There is no way you can control your borders...they are too long



Sure you can....not perfectly, but it can be done and here's the real interesting part, you could use civilian assets to do it in turn adding private sector jobs under governmental oversite.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:16:26 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Hiring illegals is illegal



That's my point exactly....If it's illegal.....the theroy is that no one should be doing it, whatever it is. 


Here is the thing I think you are not getting, there is a supply and demand thing going on with undocumented workers.... these people just want to make a life, so they are willing to cross our border. In their mind our laws probably don't mean much, because they aren't American, and they probably don't give a fuck. I put myself in their position, and I would do the same thing to make a better life for my family.

You seem to be concentrating the majority of your moral outrage at law breaking at the supply side instead of the demand side. Employers ARE legal citizens. The laws about immigration are American laws and they are Americans breaking those laws... in my mind, you wanna do something about it, you got to make it unprofitable. This is the entire issue.

Political groups representing migrants can't say jackshit about going after the employer. If we did this the problem would largely disappear.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:19:24 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

~FR~
There is no way you can control your borders...they are too long



Sure you can....not perfectly, but it can be done and here's the real interesting part, you could use civilian assets to do it in turn adding private sector jobs under governmental oversite.


Oh crap, you wanna privatize border patrol... dude, that would be seriously fucked up. Basically it would be extremely inhumane and these mercenaries would beat the crap out of people, terrorize them... like Blackwater... if they did that I would join a human shield to protect those crossing illegally..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:29:38 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		The entire agriculture lobby is too strong.  There is no way the government to make them check for illegals.  These companies bring illegals in to work in van loads.  When the inspectors start to feel uncomfortable, the company coughs up a few illegals and disrupts the lives of the families, and then they bring in more to replace them.  These are huge corporations supplying most of what you eat (if you shop at a grocery store), and also providing illegal employment to immigrants.  I do not care who worked in a meat packing plant, it is the way it is,

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:33:16 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not know what the hiring practices are where you live, but here the employer is supposed to validate that you are here legally before hiring you.

[/quotes]

I doubt hiring practices here are much different than where you are. ICE is the governing body and unless they're corrupt, the same rules apply.

Employers vet personal the same way here, but they are limited on the depths they can go when suspicious of a person. Privacy acts and all. It's hard to vet people and it should be. I prefer privacy to ease of intrusive acts.

One must submit photo ID and a social security card/green card.... these documents are processed by the federal government to prove you can work here legally... so the idea that employers are precluded from asking about immigration status is just not true...



Uhmmmmm, you surely aren't that naive. You look like a party girl from days gone by, or maybe you're old enough that you never needed an ID... For a fee it's just as easy to get a fake SSN or Green Card as it is a Teen ID.

Using your methods these illegal types (and they are not just hispanic) are apparently smarter than our Government, they use SSN's dead folks and whatever else they need to do, they can by fake green cards and yeah the government eventually catches up with them, if they haven't moved on already.

Julie, I've actually heard "laborors" talk about these things. Maybe they were lying, I don't know.

quote:



They can also report someone to INS if they suspect forged documents... just sayin'



This does happen, but I would also suspect some do not get reported. And if you do not have a very good reason to suspect someone as illegal, harassment and privacy issues are often more enforced offenses (unions tend to get involved in this stuff) than letting them slide through....Or so I'm told.

Concurrently the illegals are now getting work at the smaller companies in the traditional hiring areas due to the inexperience of these employers in dealing with the INS system. These employers are afraid of doing it wrong on either side of the hiring circle.

Here's another trick that is used south of the boarder to get here:

Get a false birth certificate that has you related to someone already legally in the USA, then our immigration attorneys can sweep you right in. That is the easiest method to get a green card, family relation and or hardship.

Now these people have their green card legally as far as the USA is concerned, but who is this person really and what is their motive to be here. It's easy to find those that already have a green card that will, for a fee claim them as a relative. 

Concurrently once here, let's say they murder or rape someone. They simply vanish across the border never to be found since they never really existed anyway; or they just get a new birth certificate and start the process again just staying away from the place that might be looking for them. I actually heard a comment to this nature made in an Omaha business a few years back.

Anyway, part "b" of my bill needs substance that is understandable and useable.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 7/3/2010 3:37:02 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:36:32 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Can you imagine the abuses of private contractors in this situation like bull advocated for... it simply would keep me awake at night to think about that happening on our border....

My sister recently adopted a beautiful little girl. Her mother was an illegal immigrant who worked the ag circuit while pregnant so that she could hide her pregnancy from her family and give her child up for adoption to a rich American couple. I look at my niece knowing her path here was in the womb of a very strong willed person, hard worker... this young lady refused my sister's offer to even buy her clothes after the baby was born. She went back to Mexico.

I am thankful for our new little baby girl... we all love her dearly.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:48:06 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Oh crap, you wanna privatize border patrol... dude, that would be seriously fucked up. Basically it would be extremely inhumane and these mercenaries would beat the crap out of people, terrorize them... like Blackwater... if they did that I would join a human shield to protect those crossing illegally..



So you're advocating that we can trust illegal border crossers more than we can trust Americans?

But before you put to many words into my mouth I suppose you could have simply asked me what type of civilian assets I was suggesting.

It seems surveillance systems could be operated by civilian sources...border barrier maintenance could be done by contractual method. Check point inspectors and I suppose there could be other possibilities, but I never mentioned those Blackwater folks that scare you so much. Are all those Black water fellows criminal types? I find it interesting that you prefer non Americans to Americans, do you hate this country that much? Why do you stay here? I know those are ridiculous questions, yet I feel the same about your Black Water comments.

I said with Government oversite, I suspect that meant the Border Patrol. Hell right now we're activating the Guard to do what I was suggesting.

Stop with the fear mongering....

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:52:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		There is no good way to privatize this mess....

Next thing you know they will be hiring illegals to keep out illegals... seriously dude, think about it...


Wouldn't it be much easier to prosecute those who are hiring these people? We should be marching on Washington to do that instead of hating on the illegals crossing the border... one is a productive use of time, the other not so much

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:56:40 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

The entire agriculture lobby is too strong.  There is no way the government to make them check for illegals.  These companies bring illegals in to work in van loads.  When the inspectors start to feel uncomfortable, the company coughs up a few illegals and disrupts the lives of the families, and then they bring in more to replace them.  These are huge corporations supplying most of what you eat (if you shop at a grocery store), and also providing illegal employment to immigrants.  I do not care who worked in a meat packing plant, it is the way it is,


Do you buy food in these grocery stores or enjoy the low prices for food that these bad grocery stores provide? Are you buying the produce or the meat that these factory farms produce?

I also do business with these factory farms. I know the an HR high up of one of the nation's largest. They would support a guest worker program, or so I'm told.

As far as the produce farms, I'm not sure about their "evil" ways. The majority of them are out in California or places like that so I'll bet Julia can help us out there.

Again part "b" of my bill should address these issues. And Obama is getting rid of those darn lobbiests and there enfluence.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 3:59:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

I find it interesting that you prefer non Americans to Americans, do you hate this country that much? Why do you stay here? I know those are ridiculous questions, yet I feel the same about your Black Water comments.

I said with Government oversite, I suspect that meant the Border Patrol. Hell right now we're activating the Guard to do what I was suggesting.


And oh, btw, I find whenever someone says stupid shit like this, this emotionally based garbage to try to elicit a knee jerk defensive response,... it means they can't debate their points on merit

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:03:06 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I buy from grocery stores and CSA's, it mainly depends on the things I listed as barriers:  time, convenience, cost.  I am far from a saint, trust me, I could do better, and sometimes I do better, sometimes, not so much.  We do vote for change, of various sorts, with our dollars, our purchase power.  But it will take all of us to force a change.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:04:56 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		If only there was a way to send Goreans back to Gor.

I would join the minutemen tomorrow.

_____________________________



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:07:39 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		You just described most con posters.....and well.

Though one will never get an admission of defeat,the best way to know when someone`s lost is when they go nasty-personal instead of debating points and facts.

The loss of self control indicates the loss of the argument.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:07:55 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Do we need border patrol to keep them out?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:10:02 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Julia - I think it is confusing.  The planet does not exist, yet it does in their world.  This would require more understanding than I am willing to devote to the topic of Gor.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:13:35 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Can you imagine the abuses of private contractors in this situation like bull advocated for... it simply would keep me awake at night to think about that happening on our border....



Is that a liberal thing to do? Lower case the name of anyone that you don't agree with? I see that name calling and attempts to minimize commentary of opposition is something O59 likes to do as well. I hope that I have been respectful to you and your comments throughout this discussion. As I said, you assumed more than you understood me to mean about the border employing civilian help.

But going back to you working as a human shield, I'm ok with that. Be careful though, those villians south of the border might fancy those tits of yours working in one of their brothels.

quote:



My sister recently adopted a beautiful little girl. Her mother was an illegal immigrant who worked the ag circuit while pregnant so that she could hide her pregnancy from her family and give her child up for adoption to a rich American couple. I look at my niece knowing her path here was in the womb of a very strong willed person, hard worker... this young lady refused my sister's offer to even buy her clothes after the baby was born. She went back to Mexico.



Uhmmmmm, how is that different from those bastard corporate cock suckers that are exploiting those poor illegals that are up against it, destitute and unable to help themselves?

FFS how is that not close to being human trafficing? Your sister bought a baby?

Come on lady.....you're kidding me with all this holier than thou attitude, right?

I was actually trying to solicite that comments and ideas of people that want to fix a problem for our US society and you give me examples of things that don't seem all that different from people you claim to dispise.

Ok I'll give you one, I'll retract my idea for civilian contractors on the border. It was after all only a suggestion, but your example of righteousness by all accounts has no takebacks.

You need to take a long look in the mirror. Oh and when you look at that baby girl, remember how your sister and family benefiitted from the exploitation of the situation of that poor illegal immigrant girl.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 7/3/2010 4:19:39 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:21:25 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		If illegal is your big beef,wtf do you cons freak the fuck out when we suggest making them legal(therefore wah-lah,illegal problem gone)?


Just say`n.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:22:51 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I buy from grocery stores and CSA's, it mainly depends on the things I listed as barriers:  time, convenience, cost.  I am far from a saint, trust me, I could do better, and sometimes I do better, sometimes, not so much.  We do vote for change, of various sorts, with our dollars, our purchase power.  But it will take all of us to force a change.


Thank you Katy....that's all I ask is honesty in dealing with a real problem. III'm no saint either, I just want to get it right, no, I mean get it correct going forward. United we stand. It will take all of us common folk to solve this.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why is illegal so hard to understand. - 7/3/2010 4:25:51 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I find it interesting that you prefer non Americans to Americans, do you hate this country that much? Why do you stay here? I know those are ridiculous questions, yet I feel the same about your Black Water comments.

I said with Government oversite, I suspect that meant the Border Patrol. Hell right now we're activating the Guard to do what I was suggesting.


And oh, btw, I find whenever someone says stupid shit like this, this emotionally based garbage to try to elicit a knee jerk defensive response,... it means they can't debate their points on merit


I do believe it was you that started with the emotion shit...

And actually I had conceeded to the point those were ridiculous comments before you had the chance to read them. I was only showing the initial points of all your hypocracy to follow.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 40
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