Feminism and submission

Feminism and submission (Full Version)

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jujubeeMB -> Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 12:36:03 AM)
Ok. So this is an extremely important issue to me and one that I've been avoiding/struggling with/failing directly at since I discovered I was deeply submissive. I have read many, many articles and listened to many Dan Savage podcasts and I cannot figure out how to solve it. I can't believe I haven't thought to ask all of you before, but now I have so here goes: I am a feminist. What I mean by feminism isn't hugely important, except that I am the kind of feminist who is mad when men are misogynistic (outside of consensual BDSM contexts) and wants vanilla couples to go down on each other a roughly equal amount :) I have two moms who have always been my version of the ideal couple: completely equal, no gender roles, both talented at different things but sharing in most responsibilities. Feminism and powerful women have been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember. What I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house? [:)]

laurell3 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 12:39:25 AM)
Context. If you felt your partner was truly misogynistic towards all women would it be a deal breaker?

jujubeeMB -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 12:40:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 Context. If you felt your partner was truly misogynistic towards all women would it be a deal breaker? Yes. But the conflict is with me, not necessarily my partner. I feel guilty about myself and my own desires sometimes - not as much his.

laurell3 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 12:44:59 AM)
Yes, but it's not real. If he's not truly misogynistic, then the degradation and objectification is merely a means to an end at that moment with no real intent to actually have hatred or contempt towards women. You're not betraying your ideals by participating in something that really doesn't have misogynistic content is my point.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 12:50:42 AM)
I see no conflict at all between submission and feminism. I actually consider myself an ultra-feminist. The actual feminist movement is somewhat terribly misguided, although the intention was good. What makes women strong and powerful is not being like men. A woman's real social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease. This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict. The premise of feminism is fine, the teachings are largely shit. Ed: (Stupid fast reply)

myotherself -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 12:58:06 AM)
For me, I couldn't be submissive and content if I wasn't a feminist. Feminism is all about having choices - the same choices that a man has. You choose to be in a submissive relationship, you choose to allow him to control what you do, you choose to exercise your sexuality in the way that works for you. At any time you can say 'sod this!' and walk away. You also choose who you submit to. I would only submit to one man - every other man is judged on his merits and upon my own personal standards. For example, my boss is a man. He's also a bit of a dick. I do what he asks because I'm a professional, but I do not submit to him - I submit to the terms of my contract with my employer. I don't believe that all men are superior to me - heck, I probably wouldn't believe that my partner was superior to me! I would give him the right to control aspects of our/my life, but only because I don't WANT to control them for myself. So in reality, I'm controlling the situation anyway, albeit in a more passive manner [:D]

submissivemale22 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:01:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I see no conflict at all between submission and feminism. I actually consider myself an ultra-feminist. The actual feminist movement is somewhat terribly misguided, although the intention was good. What makes women strong and powerful is not being like men. A woman's real social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease. This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict. The premise of feminism is fine, the teachings are largely shit. Ed: (Stupid fast reply) are you drunk? feminism at its core is the belief that women are equal to men. this should not be regarded as a radical concept.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:02:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB Ok. So this is an extremely important issue to me and one that I've been avoiding/struggling with/failing directly at since I discovered I was deeply submissive. I have read many, many articles and listened to many Dan Savage podcasts and I cannot figure out how to solve it. I can't believe I haven't thought to ask all of you before, but now I have so here goes: I am a feminist. What I mean by feminism isn't hugely important, except that I am the kind of feminist who is mad when men are misogynistic (outside of consensual BDSM contexts) and wants vanilla couples to go down on each other a roughly equal amount :) I have two moms who have always been my version of the ideal couple: completely equal, no gender roles, both talented at different things but sharing in most responsibilities. Feminism and powerful women have been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember. What I really want to do is figure out how to reconcile (truly reconcile - not abandon) all of that with my desire to submit to a man and serve him, frequently in degrading, objectifying ways. So really truly seriously, does anyone know how to do that? Any feminists in the house? [:)] As feminism is related to the existentialist idea that you can be whatever you want to be then does it follow that conforming to a set of norms in terms of what it means to be a feminist.....is paradoxical? Simone de Beauvoir got round the issue of her subservience to her lover in that way (in part). The reconciliation issue is that de Beauvoir railed against women who followed a path set for them by men rather than make a conscious choice to follow their own path......"women are not born; women are made".....was the crux of her angst. In other words.....for the women she had in mind there was no conscious power exchange.....more of a case of sleep walking into a trap.....so I suppose you could make a distinction between yourself and brow beaten women in that respect. It depends upon what you believe to be the crux of Feminism.....where you believe it to be an equal share in authority....as some do...then you can't really reconcile the two.....but where you believe it is the act of choosing your own path...free from the constraints imposed upon you by society...largely ran by men....then you could make a case for a reconciliation between the two.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:05:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissivemale22 quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I see no conflict at all between submission and feminism. I actually consider myself an ultra-feminist. The actual feminist movement is somewhat terribly misguided, although the intention was good. What makes women strong and powerful is not being like men. A woman's real social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease. This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict. The premise of feminism is fine, the teachings are largely shit. Ed: (Stupid fast reply) are you drunk? feminism at its core is the belief that women are equal to men. this should not be regarded as a radical concept. Are you philosophically challenged? The Yin and Yang are equal AND opposite.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:09:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: myotherself I would give him the right to control aspects of our/my life, but only because I don't WANT to control them for myself. So in reality, I'm controlling the situation anyway, albeit in a more passive manner [:D] Wise to keep this one close to your chest in future.......Myotherself........otherwise you may find yourself doing a few things that you really don't want to do. Just a spot of friendly advice :-)

submissivemale22 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:15:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine quote: ORIGINAL: submissivemale22 quote: ORIGINAL: Plasticine I see no conflict at all between submission and feminism. I actually consider myself an ultra-feminist. The actual feminist movement is somewhat terribly misguided, although the intention was good. What makes women strong and powerful is not being like men. A woman's real social power lies in her femininity, grace and ease. This is why I reject depersonalization. I want to hyper-personalize women who are having this exact conflict. The premise of feminism is fine, the teachings are largely shit. Ed: (Stupid fast reply) are you drunk? feminism at its core is the belief that women are equal to men. this should not be regarded as a radical concept. Are you philosophically challenged? The Yin and Yang are equal AND opposite. except they aren't. it saddens me that you might have found that comment poignant.

myotherself -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:17:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Wise to keep this one close to your chest in future.......Myotherself........otherwise you may find yourself doing a few things that you really don't want to do. Just a spot of friendly advice :-) hehehe - where would be the fun in keeping it secret? [:D]

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:19:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissivemale22 except they aren't. it saddens me that you might have found that commend poignant. You have already made your bias abundantly clear. Men are bullies and women are victims blah blah blah... You cannot be taken seriously. And I'm afraid that if you draw yourself a perfect little yin/yang you will see that they are indeed both equal parts of the circle, yet are also exactly opposite. So unless you have a special yin and yang to discuss, I'd love to hear your real point... But I already know it! Men are Bullies who victimize women... unless of course they submit to them! Am I right? What do I win?

kiwisub12 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:21:16 AM)
The part of feminism that i respond to is that women are free to make their own destiny, irrespective of what men think of that aim. I firmly believe that i can choose my path in life - and i choose to be submissive (so to speak). If women can choose their paths, then as part of that choice is the choice to give up our independence to a man. If that choice isn't available, then we don't truly have freedom. And i find nothing contradictory in "equal and different". I am not less than my partner - for that matter, if i wasn't there, my partner would be masterbating, so i am performing a necessary function - that of target! [:D]

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:21:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissivemale22 are you drunk? feminism at its core is the belief that women are equal to men. this should not be regarded as a radical concept. Equal being an equal share in authority. Some feminists would absolutely agree with you. It's logical that as some feminists rail against rules imposed upon women by men....then they must be talking about a share in authority. And I imagine most dominant men are not predisposed to sharing said authority. But as with all ideas.....you can bend them to suit your needs....so there'll always be a way to reconcile the two.

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:23:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: myotherself quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Wise to keep this one close to your chest in future.......Myotherself........otherwise you may find yourself doing a few things that you really don't want to do. Just a spot of friendly advice :-) hehehe - where would be the fun in keeping it secret? [:D] Yeah......great question....where would be the fun in keeping it secret? I'm struggling for an answer.....

submissivemale22 -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:25:47 AM)
do you even think about the things you post? a yin and yang... similar because they are equal portions? perhaps a circle and square are equal because they are both shapes. night and day are both words.... its absolutely ridiculous. either you affirm the concept that women are equal to men or you are not a feminist.

Nineveh -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:28:35 AM)
I'm a feminist. I think there are a few dynamics at work here though, aside from gender there is also the power dynamic. One can be a feminist (believing men and women should have equal levels of power in general, IE Dommes are just as Dominant as male Doms and deserve just as much respect) and still be a bit of a prick about submissives. I try to avoid that, but it can be a difficult line to walk between being overbearing and being weak.

Plasticine -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:30:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: submissivemale22 do you even think about the things you post? a yin and yang... similar because they are equal portions? perhaps a circle and square are equal because they are both shapes. night and day are both words.... its absolutely ridiculous. either you affirm the concept that women are equal to men or you are not a feminist. I've affirmed that in every post. You just can't accept that femininity WANTS to surrender to masculinity. Submissives are choosing to submit to dominance. Just because cultural pressures have done a switch on you doesn't mean the mainstream is crazy. Marriages are failing at a record rate because people can't decide which one is in control. The henpecked husband will never be an animal in bed, he's been beaten into submission. Feminism proper makes women think that if they are being submissive they aren't being equal and that is just completely fucking wrong.

myotherself -> RE: Feminism and submission (7/4/2010 1:30:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Yeah......great question....where would be the fun in keeping it secret? I'm struggling for an answer..... [:D][:D][:D]

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