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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 2:17:31 PM

Owner59

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Louve00,

I think my question follows your question and is for people who do believe God exists.The path the heaven is what my question is about.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/19/2010 2:18:19 PM >

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Post #: 101

RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 2:48:06 PM

Louve00

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Well, I was raised a Catholic. So alot of my logic is not going to be upbeat about God and Heaven. In fact, I was taught (or at least I understood it that way) that when you get to heaven, you won't recognize your loved ones (or you may recognize their spirit, but it won't be the same) from down here on earth, because you're going to be consumed with serving and loving and living in the name of the Lord. That, to me, sounds cold and kinda scarey. Maybe not to a true believer that truly loves and wants nothing more but to honor and serve and love the Lord. But, if I'm to be honest, I'm not sure thats what I want. (And I don't want to love, serve and honor the devil, either, so I'm not sure where I fit in).

For now (until I either grow more, understand better, or have made up my mind for a different reason). I think we are all an energy. I think our drive (inspiration, ambition, fortitude, etc) comes from within. I like to think we all have the power to succeed or fail, to thrive or survive...I think its all up to us. Let Joel tell it, the Lord has sculpted our fortunes or misfortunes for whatever reason. Let the catholics tell it, you'll reap what you sow so you better do right. I think those are memes that our parents, grandparents and beyond have injected into us because that virus (thought) was injected into them. I think it will continue to be that way too for a number of reasons. Security and the hope of life as we know it not ending is one reason we want to believe we will live up in heaven in peace if we go there. But what if when you die, the eternal energy in you transfers to someone or soemthing else? Ever wonder why something seemed familiar to you and you had no clue why? I wonder about those feelings. Are they because perhaps maybe, in a past life, I've seen it? I don't know.

And thats just it. We don't know. But yet, you have to believe in something. If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, right? I don't know the path to heaven. I would think, for those wanting to know its path, trust and faith in the religion they believe in is the way. But I'm not even sure I will excell in heaven. I, myself, am much more at ease with the fact that I control my own destiny. All I have to do is believe in myself. And I know its not always just as simple as that, either. Sometimes, believing in yourself takes alot of work, soul-searching, and labor to get there.

I also know I'm not answering your question, either, Owner59, so instead of going on with all this ramble, I'll just stop now.

Sorry

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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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Post #: 102

RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 2:50:30 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I can understand that some people need proof to believe. What some might not be able to understand is some people can believe without proof. There lies the difference. And neither is right or wrong in my book. They are just practicing their beliefs.

Quite. Lots of people are without the "Spirit of God", which likes to claim to be God, so they lack that inner 'voice'. They are without Grace, without a conscience. That does not make them doomed. They have their own function in creation. The lion is not doomed for killing and eating zebra: it is its function in the ecology.

Some people feel the Divine as a warmth. I have no idea how that works.

Some people are the "Spirit of God" and are not aware of the Divine either.

As Paul said in Corinthians: Anyone who is without the Spirit cannot understand [the truths] that come from the Spirit. To provide an anology: If one is born blind, one cannot possibly comprehend what a color is and what sight is. One might describe it mathematically, investigate it with sensors, describe at how many nanometers the color blue occurs - but such a blind person cannot possibly experience and comprehend what a color is.

The only thing such a person can do, is to find someone he trusts who can see and tell him about what he sees.

What else he can do, is to oppose circumcision as Grace often is lacking in circumcised populations, and will increase when the practice ends.

(in reply to Louve00)

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 2:51:01 PM

Owner59

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I`m enjoying every response,even the wanderings.

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Post #: 104

RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 4:42:59 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
And that is your conclusion.

No it was actually the conclusion of Vatican II that there are other possibilities besides the two that were presented here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
Inasmuch as you think believing in God is not the right way to go, there are just that many that belief it is. I believe its a choice. To demand people believe your choice is the only choice is not only wrong, but ineffective. Not believing in God is as right and rational as you think it is, as much as believing in God is right and rational to others. That is the dichotomy.

This is a bit of a subject change not a response to the issues I raised with Pascal's Wager. To respond to what you've posted, that's also a false dichotomy as there are a number of other positions that you're overlooking. For instance a rational belief in God if it does actually exist is quite rare, belief in God is generally based on faith.

(in reply to Louve00)

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 4:48:11 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
The choices are pretty clear.

Accept Jesus(Christian) or Mohammad(Muslim) or you don`t get into heaven.Period.I don`t believe there is an alternate route for Christians or Muslims(could someone chime in on the Jewish tradition please) or a middle ground.

Purgatory?

Also I'm of the understanding that according to Vatican II it's possible for non Christians to get to heaven.

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Post #: 106

RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 8:34:53 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Hey, there's my fellow Taoist! Meditate for twenty minutes a day? Sure, I could do that on the treadmill at the gym instead of looking at the strippers from the local "Gentlemen's Clubs" who come in to "firm up" and hope that I don't get a boner.
"OHnnnnnnn, OHnnnnnn", oh, or is it, "Ommmmmmmm, Ommmmmmm?"

Oh Julia, do we have a "greeting" when us Taoists meet, you know like "Hail Moonbeam", "Fellow Enlightened One", something like that?

Yanno popeye, one of the things that marks Taoists is that they try to think in simple terms, to be empty vessels that can be filled, to look for the easiest answer... in other words Taoists seek simplicity a concept known as the "uncarved block"

When it comes to this concept, you have me beat by a mile, you are indeed the most simple minded person I have ever seen that followed Taoist principals... congrats!

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/19/2010 10:03:27 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Believing in something based on faith alone is not equivalent to refusing belief until you are given proof.

The choice to believe in God is a choice. And since God isn't here in the flesh, it is a belief based on faith. Faith does not need proof. Faith needs someone to just believe. That some want rock solid proof God exists to believe in him doesn't mean everybody needs rock solid proof to believe in him.

I agree with that statement, except the rock solid proof part. Many would settle for some evidence, even a bible that wasn't so out of sync with reality would be a step forward. But what I really disagree with is your use of the word rational. One position is based on reason the other is based on faith. One position is rational the other is not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
To call it a false dichotomy because he believes there is more benefit to believe, whether its true or not tells me two things. Actually, it presents two things that I assume. I assume he that said there are benefits to believing whether he exists or not, probably "wants to" believe, but isn't sure, so has rationalized that its best for him to believe in God, so he can reap the rewards of an after-life with God, if there is one. (Not realizing that IF there really is a God, God probably knows how this fellow truly feels deep inside, despite whatever he says)

Who's position are you even talking about here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
What some might not be able to understand is some people can believe without proof. There lies the difference. And neither is right or wrong in my book. They are just practicing their beliefs.

No, I get that. I think we get that some people not only believe things for which there is not a shred of evidence. Hell some people actually go so far as to believe things that are contradicted by vast amounts of evidence. We really do understand that, you don't need to keep explaining it.

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 108

RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/20/2010 5:28:14 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Believing in something based on faith alone is not equivalent to refusing belief until you are given proof.

The choice to believe in God is a choice. And since God isn't here in the flesh, it is a belief based on faith. Faith does not need proof. Faith needs someone to just believe. That some want rock solid proof God exists to believe in him doesn't mean everybody needs rock solid proof to believe in him.

I agree with that statement, except the rock solid proof part. Many would settle for some evidence, even a bible that wasn't so out of sync with reality would be a step forward. But what I really disagree with is your use of the word rational. One position is based on reason the other is based on faith. One position is rational the other is not.

Some believers would have us believe that Faith is superior to Reason, when it seems to be based rather on authority, received dogma, or wishful thinking. We have been through all of that on here before. Still, it is interesting to watch the twists and turns of logiic applied to Faith. Where is Thomas Aquinas when he is needed?

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/20/2010 6:10:23 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It is merely that I consider myself an expert on most mythology.

Tell me Rule, as a self-described "super genius", is there anything you are not an expert on?

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/20/2010 6:21:21 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
To call it a false dichotomy because he believes there is more benefit to believe, whether its true or not tells me two things. Actually, it presents two things that I assume. I assume he that said there are benefits to believing whether he exists or not, probably "wants to" believe, but isn't sure, so has rationalized that its best for him to believe in God, so he can reap the rewards of an after-life with God, if there is one. (Not realizing that IF there really is a God, God probably knows how this fellow truly feels deep inside, despite whatever he says)

Who's position are you even talking about here?

I was talking about DemandingOwner1's position. You were calling his (what I call) "on-the-fence" believe a false dichotomy. Since I responded to that though, I did realize why you called it "false". But I would have thought you knew who I was referring to since you answered him.

No biggy, though.

**editted to add** but I rarely take the time to ever explain religion. So to tell me you don't need me to constantly re-iterate it (or however you exactly worded it) isn't really necessary either. I was explaining something and explained it once. That others may have explained their point of view on it, does not mean I was constantly explaining it.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 7/20/2010 6:27:02 AM >

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 111

RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/20/2010 6:59:34 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I was talking about DemandingOwner1's position. You were calling his (what I call) "on-the-fence" believe a false dichotomy. Since I responded to that though, I did realize why you called it "false". But I would have thought you knew who I was referring to since you answered him.

My confusion was caused by the position you were attributing to me, it didn't remotely resemble mine so I thought you must be talking about somebody else. I wasn't calling it "a false dichotomy because he believes". It's a false dichotomy because there are more than just the two options.

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.

(in reply to Louve00)

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 12:13:36 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.

What holes? And it isn't "on the fence". It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 2:23:44 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.

What holes? And it isn't "on the fence". It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.

Really? I thought it was a reasoned argument for protecting your ass... ummm, yanno, just in case.

Seriously, NG, how is it a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god? Puzzled.

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 2:27:31 PM

jlf1961

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I am going to make this simple and easy to understand for everyone.

It makes no difference what choice you make, since GOD has not paid this rock much attention since the last time the Chicago Cubs won the series. (that was 1908)

If he had been paying attention, do you really think that some of the off the wall, stupid things that came about in the last century would have happened. I have but one thing to say that backs up my point.

PET ROCKS

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 2:53:19 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am going to make this simple and easy to understand for everyone.

It makes no difference what choice you make, since GOD has not paid this rock much attention since the last time the Chicago Cubs won the series. (that was 1908)

If he had been paying attention, do you really think that some of the off the wall, stupid things that came about in the last century would have happened. I have but one thing to say that backs up my point.

PET ROCKS

God's a Cardinal fan...explains it all...

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 2:59:01 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

God's a Cardinal fan...explains it all...

No, someone sold their soul to Satan for the 2006 world series win... If God had been a Cardinal fan, the Cards wouldnt have missed missed a series at all.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 3:02:12 PM

mnottertail

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If there's a god up in heaven, he's got a silver thunderbird.

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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 3:06:43 PM

jlf1961

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I believe that there is a god in heaven. I just dont believe he is really involved in this planet.

He has good reason not to, look at what we, his creations, have done to it. Look at what we do to each other, and finally, look at all the shit done in his name.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 119

RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/21/2010 5:13:45 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The argument that you are referring to as "on-the-fence" was invented by Blaise Pascal and is known as Pascal's Wager. It's been around for over 300 years and the holes in it are well established.

What holes? And it isn't "on the fence". It is a reasoned argument for the belief in the existence of a god.

The hole is that you can't "choose" to believe just to cover your ass...you truly believe or you dont, and any god worth worshipping can tell the difference.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 120

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