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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 1:11:48 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		You should take a few minutes to think about this:

"Fallacy One: It assumes that there is only one god which can be believed in, the Christian one. This is not true, since there are a plethora of gods that have been believed throughout the millennia. This would have to be applied to each and every one of those gods to be true, and this would clearly be impossible, due to the clashing natures of many of the said gods." http://arc-t.org/arc-tiquities/debates-pascal.html



(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 2:07:27 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Those who rip apart the belief in a god.....and mock it as though they are operating from a position of higher knowledge and superior ideas.....are guilty of the greatest delusion of them all....that being the belief that they have the answers.


Quite. It is typical for an anosognosiac to believe he has all the answers, whereas in fact he is perpetually unaware of his blind spot where the true answer may be found.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
since empiricism is the ONLY means of verification of anything

You mean of objective verification.

Yet there is also such a thing as subjective experience and realization.

Also, logic is not the only means of arriving at a correct solution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The probability of there being a god is miniscule, approaching zero.

Billions of people disagree with you. History and mythology disagree with you.

As for the Divine: being 'outside' our universe, it indeed does not exist, as only those objects that are inside our universe exist. So you are right in that. However, in order to talk about the reality of the Divine, I use apostrophes to describe what is 'outside' our universe: the Divine 'exists'.

As for human avatars of the pagan gods, there are plenty about, completely unaware of their own nature: getting on the bus, brushing their teeth, proclaiming themselves atheists, being wise or stupid or prosaic or indifferent.


Subjective experiences are worthless as verification of anything. Disproven nonsense like OOB and near death experiences are ample proof of that.

Billions of people disagree because they have been raised to believe and dont think for themselves. And its quite interesting that you say "mythology disagree with you". Do you know why its called "mythology"?

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 3:27:35 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Disproven nonsense like OOB and near death experiences are ample proof of that.

What is OOB? And what do near death experiences have to do with the existence of the Divine and / or pagan gods?

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Billions of people disagree because they have been raised to believe and don't think for themselves.

Well, why should they think for themselves? If they did, nobody would have anything to eat. Thinking is a full time job.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
its quite interesting that you say "mythology disagree with you". Do you know why its called "mythology"?

No. Why?

I suppose that since it is an -ology, it is so named for being the science or knowledge of mythes.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 3:29:09 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		We can go around again but there's no point NorthernGent will just ignore your points again and make something up to respond to. I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that he's too dishonest to be able to have an actual discussion with. Last time I tried to talk to him he forged quotes, yes actually made up things and pretended that they were direct quotes of mine. It's more subtle this time but he's still lying for Jesus.

It might be interesting to hear why he expects bearing false witness to send him any place but hell. But I doubt that I'll get an answer to that question.  

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 3:31:24 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Disproven nonsense like OOB and near death experiences are ample proof of that.

What is OOB? And what do near death experiences have to do with the existence of the Divine and / or pagan gods?




OOB=out of body. They are "subjective experiences" which seem very real to the person experiencing them, but which have been shown to be nothing but hallucinations/dreams. You made the claim that subjective experience is as valid as objective verification. It isnt.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/24/2010 3:32:30 PM >

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 3:37:31 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
You made the claim that subjective experience is as valid as objective verification.

Oh? Where? Please quote me on that. Guess what: you cannot.

Edited to add: From this I conclude that you are neither reliable qua subjective experience nor as an empiricist.

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/24/2010 3:41:34 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 4:03:59 PM   
luckydawg


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Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		FR I guess Athiests (at least the evangelical ones) are so nasty, because they "Know with out a doubt", that they can never experience love. Since it can't be empirically defined or proven, it can't exist in their world. What a sad way to live. They know for a fact that thier Mothers do not (and could not possibly) love them.


Also the certainty that they are nothing but Complex Robots with absolutly no choice or will, and the entire universe is predetermined, must be rather depressing.


The fact that Athiesm (actuall athiesm or "strong athiesm") can't be based on rationalism, so they have to make up 2 kinds of Athiesm, and none of them seem to like calling themselves "weak", seems to irritate them also.

< Message edited by luckydawg -- 7/24/2010 4:04:54 PM >

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 6:02:07 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		Whoa, you're going to have to wait outside, we've already reached our quota of dishonest Christians in this thread.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 6:04:14 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
You made the claim that subjective experience is as valid as objective verification.

Oh? Where? Please quote me on that. Guess what: you cannot.


You quoted this: since empiricism is the ONLY means of verification of anything

And you refuted it with this:

You mean of objective verification.

Yet there is also such a thing as subjective experience and realization.


The "Yet" means you believe that subjective experience and realization are a means of verifying something.

Now, how else would you like to waste time?

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 6:07:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

FR I guess Athiests (at least the evangelical ones) are so nasty, because they "Know with out a doubt", that they can never experience love. Since it can't be empirically defined or proven, it can't exist in their world. What a sad way to live. They know for a fact that thier Mothers do not (and could not possibly) love them.


Also the certainty that they are nothing but Complex Robots with absolutly no choice or will, and the entire universe is predetermined, must be rather depressing.




None of these follow from atheism.

Im a strong atheist, but have (and continue to) experienced love. It's existence has been and is easily proven empirically.

Lack of free will follows religious belief far more closely than atheism.

(in reply to luckydawg)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 6:23:59 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The fact that Athiesm (actuall athiesm or "strong athiesm") can't be based on rationalism, so they have to make up 2 kinds of Athiesm, and none of them seem to like calling themselves "weak", seems to irritate them also.


Whew. Good thing there is only one religion. Consider how much difficulty Believers would experience if there were more than one.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to luckydawg)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 6:46:10 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
You made the claim that subjective experience is as valid as objective verification.

Oh? Where? Please quote me on that. Guess what: you cannot.

You quoted this: since empiricism is the ONLY means of verification of anything

And you refuted it with this:

You mean of objective verification.

Yet there is also such a thing as subjective experience and realization.

The "Yet" means you believe that subjective experience and realization are a means of verifying something.

The "Yet" is in a different paragraph. I nowhere say that subjective experience and realization are a means of verifying something. They are a means of establishing a non-verifiable truth.

Neither have I used the phrase "as valid as".

I recommend that you do not pursue this any further.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/24/2010 10:56:02 PM   
GotSteel


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Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Im a strong atheist, but have (and continue to) experienced love. It's existence has been and is easily proven empirically.

I end up with a de facto position of atheism, it's not so much my position as a consequence of my position. I'm anti-faith, as such in practice I can be referred to as a negative atheist or a weak atheist.








< Message edited by GotSteel -- 7/24/2010 10:58:09 PM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/25/2010 1:39:27 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

You should take a few minutes to think about this:

"Fallacy One: It assumes that there is only one god which can be believed in, the Christian one. This is not true, since there are a plethora of gods that have been believed throughout the millennia. This would have to be applied to each and every one of those gods to be true, and this would clearly be impossible, due to the clashing natures of many of the said gods." http://arc-t.org/arc-tiquities/debates-pascal.html



Pascal's Wager and rational self-interest relates to the individual's desire to believe in salvation. Whether or not it's a god/gods/nymphs/jinns.....is irrelevant.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/25/2010 2:24:58 AM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

FR I guess Athiests (at least the evangelical ones) are so nasty, because they "Know with out a doubt", that they can never experience love. Since it can't be empirically defined or proven, it can't exist in their world. What a sad way to live. They know for a fact that thier Mothers do not (and could not possibly) love them.


Also the certainty that they are nothing but Complex Robots with absolutly no choice or will, and the entire universe is predetermined, must be rather depressing.




None of these follow from atheism.

Im a strong atheist, but have (and continue to) experienced love. It's existence has been and is easily proven empirically.

Lack of free will follows religious belief far more closely than atheism.




really can you show me the empirical proof that you have experienced love?



And yes it does really follow that if the universe (and everything in it) is nothing but particles and forces interacting according a set of laws, you are nothing more than a robot, with no more Will than a crystal.

It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will". There is no possibility of it in a "materialist" universe. How could there be anything other than the interaction of forces and particles according to laws?

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/25/2010 6:02:21 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

FR I guess Athiests (at least the evangelical ones) are so nasty, because they "Know with out a doubt", that they can never experience love. Since it can't be empirically defined or proven, it can't exist in their world. What a sad way to live. They know for a fact that thier Mothers do not (and could not possibly) love them.


Also the certainty that they are nothing but Complex Robots with absolutly no choice or will, and the entire universe is predetermined, must be rather depressing.


The fact that Athiesm (actuall athiesm or "strong athiesm") can't be based on rationalism, so they have to make up 2 kinds of Athiesm, and none of them seem to like calling themselves "weak", seems to irritate them also.


Isn't predetermination a religious belief?

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/25/2010 6:55:04 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Pascal's Wager ... relates to the individual's desire to believe in salvation.

Yes some people do use it to scam individuals who have a desire to believe in salvation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
...rational self-interest relates to the individual's desire to believe in salvation.

That's not what rational self-interest means, you should look it up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Whether or not it's a god/gods/nymphs/jinns.....is irrelevant.

Bullshit, name a nymph that I could believe in to get salvation.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/25/2010 7:14:12 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
It is only through the existance of a divine, that there can be any sort of "free Will".

Walk me through how the existence of a "divine" would effect how our brains work one way or the other.

(in reply to luckydawg)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/25/2010 9:11:04 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		There is such a thing as quantum mechanics and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Our universe therefore is not purely a Newtonian mechanistic universe. There is a choice of consequences for every action. These consequences may be influenced by the Divine.

Does one want to be lucky? The Divine may influence someone - affecting his brain - not to have the hole in his pocket to be repaired, causing him to lose two cents, and for the wanting to be lucky one to find those two cents.

< Message edited by Rule -- 7/25/2010 9:12:14 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: The Big Choice...or is it really a choice? - 7/25/2010 9:54:49 AM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Pascal's Wager and rational self-interest relates to the individual's desire to believe in salvation. Whether or not it's a god/gods/nymphs/jinns.....is irrelevant.


So, it is not as you stated earlier a reasoned proof of God's existence, or did I misread you, NG? I really don't think I did, but maybe ....

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 160
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