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Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/22/2004 9:30:50 PM

Mercnbeth

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There was an interesting post from a Yahoo group that I thought I share.

I have heard often in the past, a "good Dom" should experience what he plans to do with his sub. I then wondered should a Dom, for example, get his butt whipped before doing the same to a sub?

As for me (Merc), a Long time ago (+20 years) in a galaxy far away (NYC) on a slow night at the Hellfire Club where there was a disproportionate number of Doms and Dommes in attendance this subject created a heated debate. I was one of, if not the youngest there so I thought; "what the hell, getting flogged, spanked, etc won't make be a submissive", so I volunteered to be the focus of a experiment with a very severe Domme, who insisted that anyone she mentored as a Top experience every sensation as a sub.
My reaction as the Domme was putting me through the paces was to laugh. No matter what she said or how hard she tried to flog me I couldn't stop laughing. After the "session" ended we realized that (some/most?) Doms or Tops may be hard wired that way. It was obvious that I wasn't feeling the same emotional or even physical sensation as would a submissive. So as a result, we concluded, it would serve no purpose for a Dom in general or me in particular to have that experience. It really isn't the same "experience".
I do however test any new clips or clamps I'm considering by placing them on the skin between by thumb and forefinger. I don't do this for the experience, I use it to differentiate the severity or tightness compared to others. I may slap my palm with a new whip or flogger I'm considering, but it's not for the purpose of determining how my beth will experience the same item.

I think this is a one of those things that's sounds good and looks good on paper, but in reality doesn't apply.

Well?????

Post #: 1

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/22/2004 9:40:25 PM

LadyShoshin

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From: Burlington, Ontario
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Because we live a wonderful lifestyle where each person's experience is as unique as they are, no I don't believe that every Dom/me has to experience life as a sub. However, for me, being classically trained as a submissive for an intensive 6 months and then unleashed on the unsuspecting local community where I transitioned from sub to switch to Top, then to Domme who occasionally bottoms, I found that my time as a s.a.m. has given me a delightfully evil streak. I used to think up diabolical things that could be done to a sub, then experienced them, now I can think diabolical thoughts & get to visit the results on consenting subbies. I can enjoy it by proxy. YUMM!

_____________________________

PHLOX: “It’s unethical for a doctor to cause harm...I can inflict as much pain as I like.”

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 2

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/22/2004 10:19:20 PM

LadyBeckett

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From: Scotland/Tennessee
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quote:

My reaction as the Domme was putting me through the paces was to laugh. No matter what she said or how hard she tried to flog me I couldn't stop laughing. After the "session" ended we realized that (some/most?) Doms or Tops may be hard wired that way. It was obvious that I wasn't feeling the same emotional or even physical sensation as would a submissive. So as a result, we concluded, it would serve no purpose for a Dom in general or me in particular to have that experience. It really isn't the same "experience".

Very interesting post here, Merc. I was just discussing a subject very similar to this with another Domme recently. I have never been flogged, beaten, or felt the bite of a whip from the "submission" experience position. I grew up in a Lifestyle home, and while I have always had a naturally Dominant nature, my Father had one first. lol So there were times when I was on the wrong side of disciplinary tools, and I can tell you, I wasn't laughing. I wasn't weeping either, but that was just stubborn pride keeping me from it. lol

There are other Dom/mes on the board who have experienced being Topped, and will no doubt address that on this thread. What I wanted to say is, that while I haven't had this experience in a lifestyle way, following the conversation with my friend the other day, I can actually see how having the experience, and actually allowing ourselves to feel it, would not only make us better Dom/mes, but also affect our own personal balance in a positive way. Again, I haven't personally had the experience, so it is merely a thought inspired by a conversation, and now further by your post.

I'm very interested to see what others have to say also.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 3

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/22/2004 10:19:30 PM

EStrict

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This is the *is it all about sex* question. In vanilla sex, a partner learning all kinds of position is great. In BDSM, if you are like me and consider it more mental, then no matter what *toys* are used on you, you wouldn't understand the mental thoughts of a submissive. Unless of course you have submissive tendincies and could become one under the right circumstances.

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Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/22/2004 10:42:52 PM

afmvdp

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must they? of course not. Does it help? absolutely.

(in reply to EStrict)

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/22/2004 11:57:19 PM

Estring

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I don't think a Dom experiencing what a sub would experience serves any purpose at all. A Dom will never be able to feel what a sub does.

(in reply to afmvdp)

Post #: 6

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 1:06:59 AM

temptation

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

I don't think a Dom experiencing what a sub would experience serves any purpose at all. A Dom will never be able to feel what a sub does.

For a learning masochist dom, I would say yes it definately helps.

It would be much better to get a feel for the harshness of different things on yourself, than to force someone else to be your guineapig as you learn yourself.

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 7

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 7:34:57 AM

NoCalOwner

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When it comes to things like inflicting pain, I think that it could only be a big plus for a Dom/me to know what the receiving end is like. However, I also think that, once one has been a Dom/me for some time, subbing may be extremely difficult.

Something that made me think about this was the way I deal with my family. I've been a domestic Dom for about a quarter of a century. If I tried to relax and let someone else be in charge, it wouldn't work out well at all. I've been filling this role, 24 hours a day, for my entire adult life, and I don't really even remember what it's like to not be in this role. If I tried to change roles, all that would happen would be that I'd be trying to suppress my actions and words, basically pretending to have left the role, but without mentally being able to do so. So, after a point, I think it's almost impossible for some people (like me) to switch.

I've never tried subbing in a D/s context, and I doubt that I will ever try.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 8

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 7:39:19 AM

sub4hire

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I don't necessarily believe myself that they must live the life of a sub. What is that anyway? How does a sub live? Chained up? What?
However if one wants to yeild a cane. I do believe it would be most beneficial if that same person had been hit with a cane themselves once before. Why? So you know how it feels. You know it can do such damage. Perhaps you won't do the damage.
Doug and I have an understanding. If we are trying something new to the both of us he feels it just the same way I do.
Case in point. A couple of years ago at a party someone brought along a cattle prod. He starts hitting me with it on high. Because he is excited with the new toy he doesn't notice it is seriously hurting me. Since we have this agreement with ourselves made many moons before. I took the prod away from him after about my 12th welt and hit his leg with it. No more cattle prod play. If it had continued on he would have lost a sub. Much more than that.
Each individual is different. For me it is something I require. I don't want to play with an insensitive jackass just because they don't know..the wrong wax can give you 2nd degree burns. As an example.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 9

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 9:09:03 AM

LadyBeckett

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There was a time when I would have agreed with what you said here, more or less, Estring. But after the conversation I referenced in my first post on this thread, and also reading Lawrences captivating post about his experience with Bailey, it seemed to me that his understanding, skill, and being able to "feel" the experience with her made a significant difference for both of them. I'm not giving any serious thought to doing it, but that is my thought on it.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Estring)

Post #: 10

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 12:09:49 PM

Mercnbeth

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Gloria,

quote:

However if one wants to yeild a cane. I do believe it would be most beneficial if that same person had been hit with a cane themselves once before. Why? So you know how it feels. You know it can do such damage. Perhaps you won't do the damage.

I believe that this should be the key to this discussion. I used to believe this. But I found out that the feeling is not the same. beth would have me cane her butt to hamburger and beg for more stokes when she is deep is subspace. I stop when the damage has reached a level I decide is enough. But if relying on what I felt when hitting myself with 1/2 the strength on my leg or palm of my hand; I wouldn't have bought it in the first place!

Does it truly vary from individual or is the mental 'wiring' between pain and pleasure inherently different for a Dom versus a sub?

With that said, we'll admit your cattle prod story made us lol. We never played with a cattle prod, but I did pick up one of those little battery operated yellow electrical fly swatters. It seemed like a harmless and relatively mild toy. I use to playfully tease and torture beth with it. I thought it amazing that with all my other 'toys' beth would beg a plead loudest about not getting "zapped". Until one day when I decided to 'zap' myself once on finger to see how it felt. Now it hangs in our dungeon with a sign for 'display purposes only'.

Merc & beth

(in reply to sub4hire)

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 1:41:27 PM

WayHome

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I'm not a sub and can't "wear a subs shoes" because they just won't fit.

On the other hand, I like to have the opportunity to experience anything physical that I'm going to do to someone on myself first. That isn't always practical (I didn't have anyone available to tie me up suspended on a wall and apply various vibrating clamps to me before I did it to my wife, not to mention I don't even possess the particular requisite anatomical bits) but when the opportunity is there, I will always take it.

This serves about three purposes for me.

The obvious one is technical knowledge. Getting an idea of the relative intensity and physical effects ahead of time makes for a safer and more skillful top.

A bit less obvious is that it is fun. I'm not at all submissive but I do have a tiny streak of masochism. Some things do feel good. Other things don't feel good but are still fun because I like seeing how much I can take and how calmly I an do so. As a martial artist and meditator as well as a one with previous chronic pain (which is part of what lead to the meditation in the first place) I have a fairly high pain tollerance as well as a strong curiousity about sensation and how it affects me.

In addition to all of that is that there is a bit of the "vicarious" experience in play for me. I like to be connected to my sub/victim and always strive to "feel" what she is experiencing as much as possible. It's more fun for me to watch her squirm under hot wax knowing what hot wax feels like than if I didn't know. It's more fun to give a good flogging when I've felt various sorts of floggings and thus can tailor the experience. I enjoy watching a sub shiver uncontrolably as a result of endophin overload knowing what that feels like. I've found that kisses and caresses on me feel better on freshly flogged skin and so I enjoy kissing and caressing my sub's freshly flogged skin. I get a lot of satisfaction from the extra closeness that comes from this. I espeically like inflicting something new on mt wife for the first time after having had someone do it to me first and knowing what she's in for while she herself has no idea. It makes me chuckle. That's only happenned a few times (since I so rarely bottom) but it's cool.

I could probably come up with more reasons but I doubt I could explain them coherently.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 12

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 2:12:52 PM

ScorpioMaster

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Joined: 3/30/2004
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My experience in this lifestyle started early with bondage as a top tying up the young ladies in my life. There life situations I had no control my self I was mostly introvert when it came taking charge of the situation. I found out about bdsm by getting on line and discovering this world after the divorce. I wanted to learn more to be a Dominate and through many years of guide nice and playing publicly under other Domme and Dom’s I have been able to change. I think people are hard wire but because of like that hard wire could rewire and it will take time to rewire those skills you need to be a good Dom. The more I journey down the path I discover I have been interest in this lifestyle since I was 12 and never realized it. The path I took through life never allows me to cross path with others of like minds until I learn about munches on the net. So my own life experience has given me the understand to feel how far I can go with the person I am with when we play. I am still learning how to be more accretive and this process is a never ending one. I have attend munches, play parties, events workshops, and read every thing I could. I think it take the right situation to learn from others with the right skills so you can not break your toys. This is my feelings and I hope I was able to answer your question based on my own experience.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 4:31:35 PM

sub4hire

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quote:

Does it truly vary from individual or is the mental 'wiring' between pain and pleasure inherently different for a Dom versus a sub?

With that said, we'll admit your cattle prod story made us lol. We never played with a cattle prod, but I did pick up one of those little battery operated yellow electrical fly swatters. It seemed like a harmless and relatively mild toy. I use to playfully tease and torture beth with it. I thought it amazing that with all my other 'toys' beth would beg a plead loudest about not getting "zapped". Until one day when I decided to 'zap' myself once on finger to see how it felt. Now it hangs in our dungeon with a sign for 'display purposes only'.

Merc,
You know as well as I do we all have different pain thresholds. Your story about the little fly swatter proved my point though. You loved torturing your sub with it, UNTIL you felt it. You knew what was going on. Now it is nothing but an ornament. Who knows it could have had different results though. You could have loved the feel. Where it was too painful for her. Still, though you would have known what it felt like.
I saw a bunch of those little fly swatters on sale for 2.99 a piece, bought about 20 of them to hand out at raffles. I like the fly swatter. The prod is much more intense. After all it raised welts where there is nothing but skin and bone. No fat.
I used the cane scenerio because at one of our parties once. A guy did a demo on a female sub. With a cane. He hit her three times and she had hematomas. After all of the people she had ever played with in the past they had never surpassed her limits or marked her so severely. He was proud of himself and luckily she didn't complain too loudly. Her Dom just wanted to beat the crap out of the demo-er. He had never experienced a cane before though. Still has'nt. That is someone who no doubt needs to.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 14

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 6:12:31 PM

Laura

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From: Ontario, Canada
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I don't think a Dom test driving the tools (toys?) is going to feel the same as a sub experiencing them. Also, it does not make the Dom a sub. Being submissive is not about what end of the tool you are on, it's about how you feel while there.

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Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to sub4hire)

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 6:14:02 PM

MrThorns

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I think that it is beneficial to experience, to some degree, the sensations that a dominant gives to his/her submissive. With the knowledge of how a certain toy feels, one might have a better idea of how hard you can swing a particular toy, how intense a wand feels, or how certain areas of your body process different sensations.

I don't believe that feeling these various sensations gives you a better idea of what the submissive is feeling, as we all process those feelings differently. I hate pain. I do everything I can to avoid it. Thankfully, I am a sadist....so I get to stand on the other side of the whip. I won't ooh and ahhh when getting flogged. More likely, I will sound off with a slew of expletives that would make a sailor blush.

Is it a good idea to experience these sensations? Sure. Is it absolutely necessary to be a "good" sadist? I would say no.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to sub4hire)

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 7:23:15 PM

TahoeSadist

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If I have to go a mile, I'll take the bike or motorcycle, not the sub's shoes (couldn't resist)

That said, I am one of the people who wherever practical doesn't use things on someone that I haven't felt myself. I am deliberately bypassing the debate of whether such is meaningful because I wouldn't "feel" (emotionally) the same way a submissive/bottom would, as for me the experience is purely educational, if you will. Some things I can check out myself, others have required the assistance of a skilled friend or two. No, I know that I do not experience it the same way as a sub, but it does give me a background in the sensations provided, which also tends to feed my creative side as I can plan things better, blend sensations better, etc.
Whenever someone, especially a novice Dom/Top asks my advice, this is what I tell them. It may not be for everyone, but I know that my experiences have made me better at what I do.

Eric

_____________________________

As long as one of us enjoys it, it's not a total waste

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 7:25:02 PM

topcat

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From: Tidewater, VA
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M.Merc-

I bottomed quite a bit when I first came to the scene, both as a way of understanding the sensations, and as a way to build a bit of scene cred, but submission is just beyond me ( which I regret at some level- I vaguely feel I'd be a better person if it worked for me, and I often feel that the person under my hand is getting more out of it, and doing a lot less work<g>).

I did have a sort of a minor ephiany once about what it's like on the other side of the slash. I was getting a root canal without any novacaine, and it was turning out to be worse than we'd anticipated. My dentist was the practice's pediatric specialist (just by luck of the draw) and as things became more and more difficult, she reverted to her normal work demeanor, murmuring encouragement, telling me I was a good boy (!) and the like. I was rather soothed by this, and somehow, had some realization that this was what it was like on the otherside.

There were also times on the bottom where I have had that little moment of thinking 'oh- that's good- that's important, the way he/she is touching me/ placeing their hand to steady me/ standing close enough that their smell fills my nose/whatever. I have learned a lot about the 'grace notes' of working a scene, that I never would have understood from the top.

I don't think one must- but I think one should, at some point or another, spend some time on the other side of the dynamic, if nothing else, just to be there and know what it's like.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 18

RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 7:26:41 PM

topcat

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From: Tidewater, VA
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PS-

quote:

a very severe Domme, who insisted that anyone she mentored as a Top experience every sensation as a sub.

Wouldn't have been Lady Sondra, by any chance?

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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RE: Must a Dom walk a mile in a sub's shoes? - 9/23/2004 8:28:52 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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Topcat -

quote:

Wouldn't have been Lady Sondra, by any chance?

You used to play in NYC that long ago? No, not Lady Sondra, it was a Mistress Kelly. Lots of memories from those days!

Merc

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 20

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