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Religion - 8/2/2010 5:21:40 PM   
Aneirin


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Religion, definition here, if you really want to read it, but of this religion thing, overall, is it a good thing or a bad thing ?

Just as a point of interest, where would the world called Earth and it's inhabitants be if there was no religion, would we be more advanced than we are, or more retarded than what we might be otherwise ?


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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 6:53:33 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Religion, definition here, if you really want to read it, but of this religion thing, overall, is it a good thing or a bad thing ?

Just as a point of interest, where would the world called Earth and it's inhabitants be if there was no religion, would we be more advanced than we are, or more retarded than what we might be otherwise ?



Religion arises from fear of the unknown. Without that fear, we wouldnt be humans as we know them, so you are really speculating on what the world would be like if a totally different race inhabited it. Defining all of the characteristics of that race is needed before your question can be answered.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 7:05:28 PM   
Arpig


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Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 7:13:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Religion, definition here, if you really want to read it, but of this religion thing, overall, is it a good thing or a bad thing ?

Just as a point of interest, where would the world called Earth and it's inhabitants be if there was no religion, would we be more advanced than we are, or more retarded than what we might be otherwise ?



Here is the definition you gave:

Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

Let's parse this definition:

1.  Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods ..

or

2.  ... in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe


So religion doesn't have to involve "god or gods".



3.  ... usually involving devotional and ritual observances ...

"usually" means that it's not necessarily part of the definition, just often found together.


4. ... often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

"often" means (again) that it's not necessarily part of the definition, just commonly found together.



Therefore, the only phrase within this definition which actual defines all religions is phrase 2:

in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe

Any arguments with this?

Firm


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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 7:22:07 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Therefore, the only phrase within this definition which actual defines all religions is phrase 2:

in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe

Any arguments with this?

Firm




That would also be the definition of science, would it not?

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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 8:07:24 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

That would also be the definition of science, would it not?

Science does not address the meaning of life or the universe.

K.

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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 8:39:44 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

That would also be the definition of science, would it not?

Science does not address the meaning of life or the universe.

K.



42

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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 8:58:54 PM   
E3


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Religion has played MANY factors in history.

Religion plays a powerful role in mental health.  The peace of mind it can provide, or even as simple as the distraction from ones present situation.  The knowledge that something is over you, watching, a parent always with you or your ancestors always watching.  The promise of some kind of afterlife, or something to follow after this life, all dependant on how you behave here and now.  The concepts that you are never alone, there is always a reward, that there IS something more than just the shit we live in.

Historicly it has been used as a tool to control a populace.  The Dark Ages in Europe as an example. Nuff said right?  The concept of "if you behave THIS way, you get the best afterlife" is just too easy to use to play apon peoples fear.   "God has approved this king, all others are lesser kings!" to win support.  All religions, durring some period of their history, have been used by someone to further their own earthly goals.

Cultural, religion has played an amazing role in human history.  Look at the Eastern Orthodox Church.  Look at the rich, vibrant culture of it.  Look at Jewish culture, which is hand in hand with their religion.  Budhist culture with their monks.  So much flavor to humanity, such a wide variety of cultures all because of religious differences.

On a more negative note, religion has been a division often causing wars.  Now while wars have, historicly, allowed nations, cultures, and the religion to grow, even this negative coin has a positive flip side.  Religious wars have always occured in history. Egypt and the Jews in the time of Moses.  Roman cults (of which there were several) vurses early christians.  Christians vurses the european pagans.  The Crusades.  Those were a big deal.  Even more recently, Al Quaida (likely spelled wrong) has viewed its fanatical war against the US as religious based.  So religious wars have NOT vanished from our modern world.  All of those violent, ugly wars have helped shaped society as a result of them.

Would we be the same without religions?  The answer is, without reservation no.  We are who we are, we are what we are, and we are what we are, becuase of the path we have taken, and so much of that path has been controled, influenced, or otherwise involved religion.

Where would we be without it?  In the superstitious age of humanity, we'd have lived in fear without the comfort of religion.  And we'd have been too scared to step outside our caves without a God watching over us to protect us, to achieve anything.  Of course figuratively speaking, and only applicable in the ages of superstition now long gone.  Would humanity have learned to stand on its own, without needing to feel like there was something higher than them? There is that possibility, a greater resolve taking us.  But there is also the possibility that without something higher to reach for, without being sheltered from above, we'd have ended up cowering and hiding, and stagnating. 

Without religion as a difference between people, there may have been less wars throughout history, THOUGH knowing humanity, we simply would have spent more time finding NEW reasons for wars, instead of not fighting.  But so many wars that shaped our history would never have been waged, thats for certain.

Would culture have existed without religion?  Likely.  But what would it have been?  Every world culture today has been shaped by the major religions of that area.  Culture is natural to people, so without religion to shape it, what would have?

In the end, religion has been a good thing to bring us to where we are now.  But would we have been better without it?  Cant say.  The variables to modify stretch too far back into history, and the effects would become too great to try and estimate through time.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 9:29:18 PM   
pogo4pres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

That would also be the definition of science, would it not?

Science does not address the meaning of life or the universe.

K.



Sure it does, the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of the  meaning of   "life, the universe, and everything, is 42"       

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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 9:33:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

Sure it does, the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of the meaning of "life, the universe, and everything, is 42"

Congratulations. You have won tonight's Originality Prize.

K.

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RE: Religion - 8/2/2010 10:35:02 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Therefore, the only phrase within this definition which actual defines all religions is phrase 2:

in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe

Any arguments with this?

Firm




That would also be the definition of science, would it not?


yes

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 2:01:41 AM   
pogo4pres


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

Sure it does, the ultimate answer to the ultimate question of the meaning of "life, the universe, and everything, is 42"

Congratulations. You have won tonight's Originality Prize.

K.



Nice but when I posted mine that one was waiting approval, and not yet visible to me.

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 9:10:44 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Here is the definition you gave:

Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs

Let's parse this definition:

1.  Religion is the belief in and worship of a god or gods ..

or

2.  ... in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe


So religion doesn't have to involve "god or gods".



3.  ... usually involving devotional and ritual observances ...

"usually" means that it's not necessarily part of the definition, just often found together.


4. ... often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

"often" means (again) that it's not necessarily part of the definition, just commonly found together.



Therefore, the only phrase within this definition which actual defines all religions is phrase 2:

in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe

Any arguments with this?

Firm




Yes...I disagree with your conclusion here.

2. ... in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe


So religion doesn't have to involve "god or gods".


I don't see how "meaning" can be attributed to the Universe without invoking some higher power that imbues it with that meaning. Meaning implies to me at least that there is some sentient being that established a purpose for its existence or the form of its existence.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 8/3/2010 9:11:26 AM >

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 9:41:43 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

That would also be the definition of science, would it not?

Science does not address the meaning of life or the universe.

K.



Monty Python and Douglas Adams explore both of those subjects in dept.

"The Meaning of Life" by Monty Python

"Life, the Universe and Everything"  by Doug Adams


there, no need for religion

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 10:08:37 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I don't see how "meaning" can be attributed to the Universe without invoking some higher power that imbues it with that meaning. Meaning implies to me at least that there is some sentient being that established a purpose for its existence or the form of its existence.


The sentinent being who establishes meaning or purpose for existence is the human who evokes a Creator, not the Creator. Meaning is of foremost importance to humans. Religion is a method towards meaning. Doesn't really matter if the Creator has a purpose because humans do not know what it is. Humans evoke a Creator so as to deny meaninglessness. I think #2 is consistent with man's need for purpose. Lacking any evidence that the Creator is active in history, man is the only sentinent actor. I hope I am making sense.

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 10:17:58 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I don't see how "meaning" can be attributed to the Universe without invoking some higher power that imbues it with that meaning. Meaning implies to me at least that there is some sentient being that established a purpose for its existence or the form of its existence.


The sentinent being who establishes meaning or purpose for existence is the human who evokes a Creator, not the Creator. Meaning is of foremost importance to humans. Religion is a method towards meaning. Doesn't really matter if the Creator has a purpose because humans do not know what it is. Humans evoke a Creator so as to deny meaninglessness. I think #2 is consistent with man's need for purpose. Lacking any evidence that the Creator is active in history, man is the only sentinent actor. I hope I am making sense.


Youre making sense, and we agree on the reality...that the sentient (not sentinent) actor is the human that imbues the universe with "meaning". We possibly do not agree in that imo that "meaning" is false. The universe is, period. It has no meaning or greater purpose. More important to Firm's question though, I read the definition more in the sense of seeking meaning that already exists, not a conscious attempt to give it meaning.

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 10:55:24 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Yes...I disagree with your conclusion here.

2. ... in general a set of beliefs explaining the existence of and giving meaning to the universe


So religion doesn't have to involve "god or gods".


I don't see how "meaning" can be attributed to the Universe without invoking some higher power that imbues it with that meaning. Meaning implies to me at least that there is some sentient being that established a purpose for its existence or the form of its existence.


So, two questions:

1.  Is the universe then meaningless?

2.  Are there any religions without deities, and if so, and by your definition they are not religions ... what are they?

Firm


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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 11:09:22 AM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


So, two questions:

1.  Is the universe then meaningless?

2.  Are there any religions without deities, and if so, and by your definition they are not religions ... what are they?

Firm



The first is quite possible.

I could find no example of the second.

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 11:15:31 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

So, two questions:

1.  Is the universe then meaningless?

2.  Are there any religions without deities, and if so, and by your definition they are not religions ... what are they?

Firm



1.  Meaningless to who?  Us?  Possibly.  Itself?  Who knows.  Someone once said that "All things strive."  Or something like that.

2. Taoism

quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

Nice but when I posted mine that one was waiting approval, and not yet visible to me.



Liar.  I am not on waiting approval. 

~~~

ETA:  Taoism is usually considered both a religion and a philosophy. 

< Message edited by Aylee -- 8/3/2010 11:16:48 AM >


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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Religion - 8/3/2010 12:33:13 PM   
Jeffff


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Yeah I kinda feel Taoism is more a philosophy than a religion. That's why I left it out.

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