RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (Full Version)

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sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:36:44 PM)

a lie is when someone purposefully says something false...... a trans woman saying they are a woman is absolutely true......

I never said one way or the other so yall can make whatever decision you want to about me i care not...




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:40:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well I just perved your profile and if you are a guy, I may have to rethink this whole lesbian thing[8D]

I vote we both renounce pussy and jump her together!




laurell3 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:40:44 PM)

Ok well it seems any meaningful discussion on this topic is now over. Congrats on that lindsey, you're really hurting the discussion you profess to further in so many ways that you really cannot see.




sexyred1 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:40:48 PM)

I think my brain is fairly well hung....so if I had a dick I would think it would be commensurately sized. [;)]




thishereboi -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:41:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

a lie is when someone purposefully says something false...... a trans woman saying they are a woman is absolutely true......

I never said one way or the other so yall can make whatever decision you want to about me i care not...


Yes, they are a women, but hopefully they have enough sense to understand that people are going to care about the sexual organs of the person they are contemplating sleeping with and be honest before it goes that far. Why would you consider sleeping with someone who you couldn't be truthful with? If you feel they are the type of person who is going to hate you for it, why would you be with them in the first place?

As to whether or not you have a pussy or a penis, I seriously doubt any of the posters on this thread care.




sexyred1 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:42:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well I just perved your profile and if you are a guy, I may have to rethink this whole lesbian thing[8D]

I vote we both renounce pussy and jump her together!


I agree if you both do that, it would be a worthwhile derail!!




sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:42:10 PM)

i tried to be civil but they think if their opinion is hurtful.....it's ok because it's their opinion.....BS!!!!




thishereboi -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:42:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well I just perved your profile and if you are a guy, I may have to rethink this whole lesbian thing[8D]

I vote we both renounce pussy and jump her together!


You got a deal. Now all we have to do is get her to agree to it and we are golden[:)]




VideoAdminTheta -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:43:43 PM)

I do believe you all were told to calm down by a Mod21. I am not getting in the mix of this, but I really think you ought to pay attention. She is working through the thread and is not going to be happy when she gets this far.




sexyred1 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:44:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

i tried to be civil but they think if their opinion is hurtful.....it's ok because it's their opinion.....BS!!!!


WE are hurtful? Read back in the thread sunshine. YOU were the one calling people morons, Sir, guy, dude, etc.

No one here draws first blood without being attacked first.

You were not civil from POST ONE.





LadyPact -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:51:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t

Calla - outstanding post. Thank you for taking the time to define where your boundaries are and your perception of the differences between omission and commission. I can very much relate.

Otters and I have had this discussion of 'when to disclose', as it's been a very hot topic on another board. In my head, I tend to place it in the same box as an STD or Erectile Dysfunction.(not suggesting being trans is a disease/dysfunction, nor that it's in any way negative....more so that it is an 'intimate' detail that I may or may not need the general public to know.)

If we're having coffee, I don't really need to tell you my sexual details. If I want to sleep with you, then not only will I ask you a lot of questions, I'll be open and share my history with you.

No one can know the absolute 'right' time that the other person is ready to hear intimate details. If the other person isn't interested in sleeping with me/isn't interested in an emotional relationship, etc,  my disclosure would be a moot point. Also, in not knowing that person well, how do I know he/she wouldn't share that intimate detail with the rest of the team/office/other PTA members?

Also, if I don't have much experience with *trans/STDs/ED/women who squirt, <insert your preference here>*, in my world it's not a common thing, therefore, I might UNCONSCIOUSLY assume other people are just like me, and I don't even consider that any questions need to be asked.

Always being safe to be open about who we are (poly, kinky, trans, etc) would be ideal, but the reality is, depending on where you are, what state you live in, the history and education of the person you're with, etc, requires us to use awareness and good judgment. It doesn't guarantee safe passage, but it does help avoid poor situations.

As an aside, and knowing how difficult some of our intimate details and preferences are, even if it's not something I'm into personally, I realize and acknowledge the courage it takes to reveal, and have great honor for the privilege of being included.


It's somewhat ironic that some of the very things that you wrote about are so close to the way I feel on the subject, with two exceptions.  One is that we're one different sides of the topic and the other is that I feel the description didn't go far enough.

I thought you did a really good job in attempting to find a way to deal with sexual intimacy.  (Agreed, not a disease, but damn hard to find a good analogy.)  The problem is for Me, it falls short because it isn't covering emotional intimacy.  Literally, that thing that makes Me tend to call someone a friend, rather than an acquaintance.  While not the same as romantic bonds, even platonic relationships do have an intimacy to them.  Even from professional life, there is a difference to Me between a co-worker (someone I only spend the required time with) and a friend that I happen to work with (someone socialize with because I like them).  The first category, I'm going to care a heck of a lot less than the second.

There's a huge chunk of a person's life that is taken up by the gender issue.  In many cases, it's a minimum of eighteen years.  In Otter's example, it's darn near forty.  That's a lot not to let a person in on.




ModTwentyOne -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 6:56:02 PM)

And I find myself jumping to the end for a third warning on one thread... stop the off topic posts and personal attacks. 





Lucienne -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:02:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

That's a very unique and real fear Otters and I'm certainly sympathetic to it. I don't know that it changes the other person's right to know at all. It makes for a difficult conflict, because obviously you have to balance that with your right to be safe. There's no doubt about that either. It's so unfortunate that there are such ugly things in the world that make this such a difficult situation.


This has been a very interesting thread and I've spent a lot of time putting myself in the shoes of others. But now I'm putting my own shoes back on and I'm finding the disclosure issue increasingly odd. You know, if I wanna fuck someone, I'm going to find out pretty quickly what they're packing. Via physical inspection. Given my attraction template, it seems pretty unlikely that I'll unwittingly find myself with an FtM. But if I did, I think my response would be more along the lines of confusion (not sure what to do with this equipment) or frustration (no really! how can I tell it's working if it doesn't shoot cum!!??). I don't think I would feel violated unless the person sexually assaulted me. I don't know if whatever attraction I initially felt would disappear on discovery (recognizing my own essential whoredom, I'm guessing not). And I can see myself just taking a "no harm no foul" pass. But I just can't imagine myself building up the sense of injury that others seem to anticipate in themselves.

The dating thing is even weirder. Again, I'm a bit of a hussy. But if I'm spending a lot of time getting to know someone prior to sexual contact it's because I really want to get to know that person outside of a sexual context. If I decide I don't want to have sex with that person, I don't consider that time wasted. I'm pretty sure I'm not making myself clear here. Bottom line -- if all I want is to fuck, I get on pretty quickly with the fucking. I don't spend a lot of time getting to know someone as a human being on the condition that there will be some romantic attachment in the future such that their failure to meet my romantic expectations feels like a betrayal. I get to know people because I find them interesting people, it's not some single-purpose romantic relationship building activity. The only way I can see this as a live issue is if you're dealing with long distances and time periods before you actually meet the person and under those circumstances you've got a general duty to be skeptical until you meet the person.

I guess I don't think the "right to know" is triggered as early as others think. Don't invest sexual entitlements into chaste relationships. And I think that the dangers that transfolk (I'm from the Midwest, we talk like this) face are far more serious and they are more deserving of protection from those than cisgendered folks are from whatever feelings of confusion and betrayal they face. It's just not even close in my book. But I (kind of) understand the feelings that cause others to think differently.




LadyPact -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:03:09 PM)

If "dude" is now an offensive term, I'm screwed.  It is something that I call both men and women, no matter whether they were born as that gender or not.




laurell3 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:08:41 PM)

I would guess it's a little bit easier Lucienne for a female to think those things than a heterosexual male. There are so many men in the world that would NEVER have sexual contact with ANYONE that they felt was male without exception. To them being in that situation IS akin to sexual assault in their minds. I'm a bi female, I can say...what's the big deal too...that does not mean that's true for everyone else or that it's not totally forseeable that it wouldn't be acceptable for many others.




sweetsub1957 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:14:55 PM)

~FR~
This whole thing is just confusing to me. What difference does it make what someone is packing, unless you're going to bed with him/her? Otherwise, just relate to them as they want to be related to. It makes it SO much easier. It's hard enough for transgendered people to deal with the fact that they are, without other people being pissy toward them.

~sweetsub~




DomImus -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:19:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CeriseNin
I hear you, but what about my choice not to date a transgendered person? If you - - hypothetical you - - don't disclose that information off the bat, before the date, then I think I'm having a date with a biological woman when I'm not, so I may be thinking there's potential, when the reality is, you're stringing me along. I wouldn't feel betrayed but I'd have nothing else to do with you, not even as friends. Not because you're trans but because you're a liar, by my standards.


And if you really think about it the transgendered person is really wasting their own time or worse. If I am a m2f transgendered person I am at best naive to withhold that information thinking that it just isn't relevant and more over do I really want to get involved with someone whom I might develop some genuine emotional attachment to only to potentially lose them when I reveal my gender history? Would it not be the best approach to be honest up front and eliminate that potential land mine? If I did not dismiss them for the gender issue (and I would - it's just a personal choice) I would dismiss them for lack of disclosure.

This debate really should not be framed in terms of present gender identity. The real issue here is gender history.




laurell3 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:19:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

~FR~
This whole thing is just confusing to me. What difference does it make what someone is packing, unless you're going to bed with him/her? Otherwise, just relate to them as they want to be related to. It makes it SO much easier. It's hard enough for transgendered people to deal with the fact that they are, without other people being pissy toward them.

~sweetsub~


Who is being pissy towards them?




Lucienne -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:38:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I would guess it's a little bit easier Lucienne for a female to think those things than a heterosexual male. There are so many men in the world that would NEVER have sexual contact with ANYONE that they felt was male without exception. To them being in that situation IS akin to sexual assault in their minds. I'm a bi female, I can say...what's the big deal too...that does not mean that's true for everyone else or that it's not totally forseeable that it wouldn't be acceptable for many others.


Ok, I'm drinking a cocktail, watching The Gates and responding during commercial breaks, which means I'm guilty at the outset of not giving this response the time and careful consideration that your comment deserves, but in the interests of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good -- why exactly is it that it's a bit easier for a woman to think these things than a man? I'm not bi, unless the definition has been expanded to include "I like to fuck men and be fucked by men." I've never even made out with a woman. That's just kind of how I roll. But my sexual identity is not built on a foundation of excluding women. That a man would have such an attitude of exclusion strikes me as really really unhealthy and not the sort of thing to be indulged.




DomImus -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 7:42:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne
The dating thing is even weirder. Again, I'm a bit of a hussy. But if I'm spending a lot of time getting to know someone prior to sexual contact it's because I really want to get to know that person outside of a sexual context. If I decide I don't want to have sex with that person, I don't consider that time wasted.


I can sorta relate to this one. If I met someone and got to know them over time - perhaps in a benign social or work environment - and later developed a deeper interest in them only to learn that they are m2f transgendered I would simply retreat back to the friends level and be happy with my new friend. My friendship would not hinge upon their gender identity or the outcome of my interest and subsequent retreat. Even if I ultimately developed some intimate interest and then had to back track I wouldn't consider the time wasted nor would I abandon the friendship.

However, if there were clear interest on my part from jump (and we'll assume from theirs for the sake of discussion) and the connection was understood by both parties to be more than just a new friendship then I doubt we would end as friends since I would feel deceived. In the former example she did not divulge anything either but there was a different dynamic afoot initially. The difference would be significant to me.




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