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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 7:48:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I would guess it's a little bit easier Lucienne for a female to think those things than a heterosexual male. There are so many men in the world that would NEVER have sexual contact with ANYONE that they felt was male without exception. To them being in that situation IS akin to sexual assault in their minds. I'm a bi female, I can say...what's the big deal too...that does not mean that's true for everyone else or that it's not totally forseeable that it wouldn't be acceptable for many others.

Ok, I'm drinking a cocktail, watching The Gates and responding during commercial breaks, which means I'm guilty at the outset of not giving this response the time and careful consideration that your comment deserves, but in the interests of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good -- why exactly is it that it's a bit easier for a woman to think these things than a man? I'm not bi, unless the definition has been expanded to include "I like to fuck men and be fucked by men." I've never even made out with a woman. That's just kind of how I roll. But my sexual identity is not built on a foundation of excluding women. That a man would have such an attitude of exclusion strikes me as really really unhealthy and not the sort of thing to be indulged.

Ok. I am a hetro man. I don't have a homophobic bone in my body. I was asked to dance under the homo fountain at the recent North Halsted Street Market days. I declined , only because those dudes were all buffed!

My sexual identity IS built on the foundation that I won't have sex with a man. You can call that exclusion, you can call that fucked up, you can call that anything you want.

I would be surprised however if the vast majority of hetero dudes do not feel the same way.

Including the dudes you like to fuck.

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 8/15/2010 7:49:42 PM >

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(in reply to Lucienne)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 7:55:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I would guess it's a little bit easier Lucienne for a female to think those things than a heterosexual male. There are so many men in the world that would NEVER have sexual contact with ANYONE that they felt was male without exception. To them being in that situation IS akin to sexual assault in their minds. I'm a bi female, I can say...what's the big deal too...that does not mean that's true for everyone else or that it's not totally forseeable that it wouldn't be acceptable for many others.

Ok, I'm drinking a cocktail, watching The Gates and responding during commercial breaks, which means I'm guilty at the outset of not giving this response the time and careful consideration that your comment deserves, but in the interests of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good -- why exactly is it that it's a bit easier for a woman to think these things than a man? I'm not bi, unless the definition has been expanded to include "I like to fuck men and be fucked by men." I've never even made out with a woman. That's just kind of how I roll. But my sexual identity is not built on a foundation of excluding women. That a man would have such an attitude of exclusion strikes me as really really unhealthy and not the sort of thing to be indulged.

It's really a matter of orientation of whether you're bi or not, they just seem to be so much more up in arms about it. Every totally straight guy I've EVER dated and had discussions on this has come from an attitude of exclusion like that by the way. (Keep in mind I'm constantly having this discussion and pushing my boy on boy fantasies!) If it's unhealthy a whole lot of them must be that way (cough- not that I've had THAT many

).

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:01:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I would guess it's a little bit easier Lucienne for a female to think those things than a heterosexual male. There are so many men in the world that would NEVER have sexual contact with ANYONE that they felt was male without exception. To them being in that situation IS akin to sexual assault in their minds. I'm a bi female, I can say...what's the big deal too...that does not mean that's true for everyone else or that it's not totally forseeable that it wouldn't be acceptable for many others.

Ok, I'm drinking a cocktail, watching The Gates and responding during commercial breaks, which means I'm guilty at the outset of not giving this response the time and careful consideration that your comment deserves, but in the interests of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good -- why exactly is it that it's a bit easier for a woman to think these things than a man? I'm not bi, unless the definition has been expanded to include "I like to fuck men and be fucked by men." I've never even made out with a woman. That's just kind of how I roll. But my sexual identity is not built on a foundation of excluding women. That a man would have such an attitude of exclusion strikes me as really really unhealthy and not the sort of thing to be indulged.

Ok. I am a hetro man. I don't have a homophobic bone in my body. I was asked to dance under the homo fountain at the recent North Halsted Street Market days. I declined , only because those dudes were all buffed!

My sexual identity IS built on the foundation that I won't have sex with a man. You can call that exclusion, you can call that fucked up, you can call that anything you want.

I would be surprised however if the vast majority of hetero dudes do not feel the same way.

Including the dudes you like to fuck.

Really? If someone asks you what your sexual preference is you'd respond "I do not have sex with men!"? I'm obviously missing something here.

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:09:24 PM

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HUH?

Ok, if someone asked you you would say," I don't have sex with women, but I don't exclude them."

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:09:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

Really? If someone asks you what your sexual preference is you'd respond "I do not have sex with men!"? I'm obviously missing something here.

Isn't that more or less the definition of heterosexual for a guy? Hetero/homo seem pretty exclusionary in nature.

(in reply to Lucienne)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:16:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I was asked to dance under the homo fountain

So it really was raining men.

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:18:15 PM

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Well, it was a hot day. They had this pipe thing set up to rain water on 5 or 6 guys that were dancing.

One of them said, " hey cutie, you look hot, come on up and dance"

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:20:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

My sexual identity IS built on the foundation that I won't have sex with a man. You can call that exclusion, you can call that fucked up, you can call that anything you want.

I call it straight...

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:21:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

Really? If someone asks you what your sexual preference is you'd respond "I do not have sex with men!"? I'm obviously missing something here.

Isn't that more or less the definition of heterosexual for a guy? Hetero/homo seem pretty exclusionary in nature.

I suppose I'm focusing on the positive vs. negative definition. If someone asks me my orientation, I'll say heterosexual. If they ask me what that means, I'll say I like to fuck men. For me, it's passively exclusionary. What I like to do is have sex with men. Women are a sexual afterthought. If I wanted to have sex with a woman I'd just go ahead and do it without feeling like I was radically redefining my sexuality because my sexuality consist of having sex with people I want to fuck. But then I do think I'm about as queer as a woman who only has sex with men can get.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:22:34 PM

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I don't see how that differs from a hetero guy.

But I may be missing something.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:27:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I suppose I'm focusing on the positive vs. negative definition. If someone asks me my orientation, I'll say heterosexual. If they ask me what that means, I'll say I like to fuck men. For me, it's passively exclusionary. What I like to do is have sex with men. Women are a sexual afterthought. If I wanted to have sex with a woman I'd just go ahead and do it without feeling like I was radically redefining my sexuality because my sexuality consist of having sex with people I want to fuck. But then I do think I'm about as queer as a woman who only has sex with men can get.

I don't know if anyone here automatically comes to the "negative definition" of heterosexual, the topic was about having sex with a man, not having sex with a woman. If they were discussing women the definition would have been more female-oriented.

You can "identify" as heterosexual and have one definition and Jeffff can "identify" as heterosexual and have a different definition that's like genitally exclusionary.

I actually don't "identify" as any orientation, but I don't think my identity suffers from the lack.

This thread is hilarious.

(in reply to Lucienne)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:28:12 PM

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Gender is in your head, sex is in your pants.

boi

OP: As a personal issue, I suggest you look up a word before using it to describe yourself.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:32:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I don't see how that differs from a hetero guy.

But I may be missing something.

Ha. I just noticed "Nicer than Domiguy." You guys are so cute.

I think we are both missing something. My point was that I don't understand why it would be easier for a woman rather than a man to deal with unexpected sex parts with a graceful retreat. It appears likely at this point that we are suffering... a failure to communicate. Fortunately, we are not in a prison labor camp and can work through these issues in a more dignified fashion. Unfortunately, Paul Newman will not be visible and shirtless at any point.

(in reply to Jeffff)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:33:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

~FR~
This whole thing is just confusing to me. What difference does it make what someone is packing, unless you're going to bed with him/her? Otherwise, just relate to them as they want to be related to. It makes it SO much easier. It's hard enough for transgendered people to deal with the fact that they are, without other people being pissy toward them.

~sweetsub~

Who is being pissy towards them?

Okay, I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, and maybe pissy wasn't the right word. But what I was meaning was, some people get so upset at whatever TG people want to call themselves, and some even call them liars. I guess, to me, it just doesn't matter what parts they're packing if I'm not going to have sex with them. But then, someone could say, of course it wouldn't matter to me because I'm bi. And then there is the thing that, if someone appeals to you and then you find out they're not packing the parts you thought they were, you could feel like they weren't being honest. I can see where both "sides" have valid POVs.

~sweetsub~

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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:34:07 PM

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It is true, i am nicer. It is also true that, that is a rather low bar.

I can eat 50 eggs!

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:46:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I suppose I'm focusing on the positive vs. negative definition. If someone asks me my orientation, I'll say heterosexual. If they ask me what that means, I'll say I like to fuck men. For me, it's passively exclusionary. What I like to do is have sex with men. Women are a sexual afterthought. If I wanted to have sex with a woman I'd just go ahead and do it without feeling like I was radically redefining my sexuality because my sexuality consist of having sex with people I want to fuck. But then I do think I'm about as queer as a woman who only has sex with men can get.

I don't know if anyone here automatically comes to the "negative definition" of heterosexual, the topic was about having sex with a man, not having sex with a woman. If they were discussing women the definition would have been more female-oriented.

You can "identify" as heterosexual and have one definition and Jeffff can "identify" as heterosexual and have a different definition that's like genitally exclusionary.

I actually don't "identify" as any orientation, but I don't think my identity suffers from the lack.

This thread is hilarious.

I thought the topic I responded to was discovering that the person you had romantic intentions for wasn't running with the expected - from birth - genital package. To which I gave my response and was informed that my position would be an easier one for a woman than a heterosexual male. I am trying to figure out why that would be so.

Personally, I could give two shits about the assorted labels. From my position of relative privilege you are either a person I want to have sex with or you are not. Everything else is details for someone else to sort out.

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:51:10 PM

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~FR~
I can't see why it would be any easier for a woman to be surprised by an unexpected genital package, than it would be for a man. What would be the difference?

~sweetsub~

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to Lucienne)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 8:54:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

~FR~
I can't see why it would be any easier for a woman to be surprised by an unexpected genital package, than it would be for a man. What would be the difference?

~sweetsub~

I don't know what to tell you. I was not the one to suggest that there is a gender difference.

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 9:19:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne
The dating thing is even weirder. Again, I'm a bit of a hussy. But if I'm spending a lot of time getting to know someone prior to sexual contact it's because I really want to get to know that person outside of a sexual context. If I decide I don't want to have sex with that person, I don't consider that time wasted.

I can sorta relate to this one. If I met someone and got to know them over time - perhaps in a benign social or work environment - and later developed a deeper interest in them only to learn that they are m2f transgendered I would simply retreat back to the friends level and be happy with my new friend. My friendship would not hinge upon their gender identity or the outcome of my interest and subsequent retreat. Even if I ultimately developed some intimate interest and then had to back track I wouldn't consider the time wasted nor would I abandon the friendship.

However, if there were clear interest on my part from jump (and we'll assume from theirs for the sake of discussion) and the connection was understood by both parties to be more than just a new friendship then I doubt we would end as friends since I would feel deceived. In the former example she did not divulge anything either but there was a different dynamic afoot initially. The difference would be significant to me.

If I had developed a friendship with someone over a period of time like that, I don't think I would drop the friendship either. It would bother me that she didn't feel I would understand or might not want to be friends because of it.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 9:23:42 PM

Zevar

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Good Evening Lindsey:

In reading further into this thread it became evident that not only does Gender yet also politics, religion, money and family tend to be subjects that are highly personal for most folks, from what I have encountered throughout my life.

I know for myself the subject of gender brings about a sort of biased perspective to a degree. I have many valuable friendships with people who clearly do not fit into any box provided within a binary gender spectrum. San Francisco is known to be a city that is inclusive of all people. I value this greatly and cannot imagine living where the opposite is condoned. On another note in reading your entries it became apparent that you appeared to be rather hostile and subjective in replying. I realized that I could personalize a discussion, if I chose to. However, what purpose would it serve to alienate those who I might otherwise garner at the least an increased understanding of what I am presenting? Something to consider perhaps?

I also know when I speak about my viewpoints surrounding issues of any given subject, if I wish to be effective with my presentation, I must choose to speak to others as I would wish to be spoken to. I must also practice a level of objectivity else my subjective viewpoint(s) will muddy the otherwise clearer waters. In order to experience understanding attitudes when speaking of gender issues there must be much self education and audience education prior to experiencing such. All anyone can offer in a discussion is what they currently know. People cannot be expected to speak from an educated perspective surrounding gender differences if they are marginalized when speaking from where they are at the present time. Respect of others is not exempt for anyone regardless of their gender. I encourage you to re-think your former approach as I do support anyone to advocate equal rights for those in the Trans Community i.e. LGBTI Community.

Further to become verbally hostile simply results in divisiveness. Thus furthering in widening the gap of misunderstandings surrounding issues of gender. Clearly I can relate to feeling very strong and deep feelings for those I care for and that have endured much unwarranted cruelty and discrimination due to societal rejection. I recognize that there is a level of emotional pain and marred dignity when any people who do not fit into the binary gender spectrum are treated less than human. Nonetheless you only win them with kindness and diplimacy. Even then not everyone will accept gender differenes. Yet at least you have given your best in attempting such. Non-Violence is always the solution to Violence.

Do not hear that I am proposing anyone in this thread was advocating violence or was violent toward yourself or others. I am not! What I am advocating is that Education is instrumental in teaching society what they can learn and in most instances people are willing to at the least listen to what another says especially if they deliver their message in a dignified and respectful manner. Remembering with education comes resistance. Therefore an educator must be strategic and learn to endure if they endeavor to become successful with their message.

Another thought that came forth in considering education is as follows: The subconscious mind which is also known as the unconscious part of mind or rather the mental activity not directly perceived by the consciousness mind. From this subconscious mind memories, feelings and thoughts can influence behavior without realization and at times tend to come forth without prior consideration. This aspect of mind/thought will not bend to the human will. Reinforcing a natural level of mental resistance within the subconscious mind is accomplished by way of continuing to force what is unknown to it. Keep in mind as people there tends to be willingness to learn when treated in a manner that is indicative of reasonable conduct at best. Forcing a point tends to be counter-productive thus is countered by the resistance inerrant within the subconscious mind.

Finally remember nothing gives anyone a license to trod on the rights of others. May we always strive to treat those around us in the manner we wish to be treated. Even still when the method of Non-Violence appears to be faulty among attitudes that are ignorant of Gender differences, may we who choose to educate thus teach, regain our composure with the goal of accomplishing an increased awareness regarding gender differences while demonstrating characteristics of self dignity, respectfully so.

****I bid you peace!****

Take really good care of you, Lindsey!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/15/2010 10:16:27 PM >

(in reply to sweetlindsey84)

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