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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 10:40:08 PM   
OttersSwim


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Status: offline 		Zevar.  I have enjoyed reading your posts here - very well thought out.  Thank you, and thanks to everyone for an engaging discussion.  :)

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/15/2010 10:57:51 PM   
Zevar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Zevar.  I have enjoyed reading your posts here - very well thought out.  Thank you, and thanks to everyone for an engaging discussion.  :)


Greetings OttersSwim:

The sentiment is mutually appreciated. Thank you, kindly.

Take care!

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 4:12:56 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

a lie is when someone purposefully says something false...... a trans woman saying they are a woman is absolutely true......

I never said one way or the other so yall can make whatever decision you want to about me i care not...


I love coming from a Catholic background. A lie is also purposefully withholding information. It's called a lie by omission.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 4:24:01 AM   
VaguelyCurious


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Status: offline 		It's trickier than that, Jen-whether or not something qualifies as a lie by omission depends on whether the person being lied to has a 'right' to the information omitted (whatever 'having a right' means...)

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 4:38:38 AM   
BoiJen


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Status: offline 		When it comes to having what's supposed to be an intimate relationship, withholding a part of who you are is a lie. Having a sex change operation to be more of who you are is still part of you.

boi


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 5:53:05 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Gender is in your head, sex is in your pants.

boi



Quoted for fabulousness.

So sl, when you say -

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

a lie is when someone purposefully says something false...... a trans woman saying they are a woman is absolutely true......


I struggle, because it wouldn't necesarily be clear whether that person was making a statement about their gender (which would be truthful) or their sex (which would be a lie).



< Message edited by crazyml -- 8/16/2010 5:54:11 AM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 8:55:20 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Status: offline 		I have another question, so please bear with me. Ok, so you have a person who is a post-op trans person. At one point in hir life, that person was of a different gender than the one xhe currently lives as, and xhe's gone through all of the work to have all the pieces and parts resolved so that, for all practical purposes, xhe is fully actualized in the gender to which xhe identifies.... None of the parties involved are planning on having children, so the issue of fertility is off the table... so here's the hypothetical question...

WHY does it matter what gender this person once was? I can sort of understand the people who would have problems with a pre-op trans person who, although mentally and emotionally living as the gender to which xhe identifies, and presenting as the gender to which xhe identifies, still has external sexual characteristics of the former gender. I can see how this would be problematic for some folks, and how it might cause worlds to rock a bit if things weren't explained and people given the opportunity to choose whether to continue the involvement... but once the change is complete, and the individual is, in all relevant ways, existing as the gender to which xhe identifies, why should it matter that xhe was once a -different- gender, as there is NO reason that I can think of why it would make any difference whatsoever.

I thought about it long and hard last night, and realized that, if I knew someone, and cared about hir, even if I were to find out that xhe was, at one point, a different gender, and even if we were -intimate-, I think that isn't even a question I'd worry about -asking-. If xhe was a pre-op, I might want to know, just because of needing to plan for the dichotomy, and I'd want to know how xhe felt about different practices that might show up the discrepancy during our... recreation... but other than that, why care?

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/16/2010 8:57:58 AM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 10:23:51 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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Status: offline 		What has got me on this thread is mentality of those involved

You have a TS/TG/TV who wants to be taken seriously as a woman and chooses to live and address themselves as a woman to be as true to how they feel as possible.

You have Men like myself who are completely comfortbale with the Trans paradigm, who only feel that it is appropriate to address themselves as such.

You have Men who are Homophobic fuck sticks who beat up anything that they find themselves attracted to but resent that it's not Hetrosexual and thus feel it is wrong somehow.

You have Women who resent someone who was not genetically born a woman claiming that they should be treated the exact same way that someone who was is.

You have Transgender who are Post Op, who state that since they have had the operation there should never be a question to their gender that they have corrected a Mistake that the Great Architect made when making them and that they finally are the woman they should have been.

You have people who disregard feeling and believe that whatever genetic gentalia you were born with is what you should identify as. There are also people in this catagory that feel that it is okay to identify as the gender of choice to world at large but as soon as a relative engagement such as friendship or a relationship is forged that the truth should be divulged in the nature of being open and honest.

You have people of the TS/TG/TV persuasion who feel that it is hard enough being accepted that stateing they are something they do not feel the are is simply a way of making their life more difficult than it needs to be and that someone who is interested in them should accept them no matter what their genetalia looks like, they feel they are what they are regardless of that.




So In the end you have lots of people who have valid opinions for themselves who get to chose for themselves what is right for them and what is not.

Personally I say that for me I will always feel betrayed if I am lied to. Because of this if someone who is Transsexual or Transgender lies to me about who they are then I will lose respect for them and thus not intersted continuing a relationship. My opinion is that in the end, they know they are not a Woman, or a Man, they KNOW they are Transgendered or Transsexual, Even those who have stringly commented on this thread have all stated how it is being Transsexual, or Transgendered, this is not a statment that a Woman, a biological woman, has to say. Because of this there is at least one very specific difference between a Transsexual woman and a Biological woman.

To me this difference is the most important one that says if you do not acknowledge this very basic idea then you are actually not owning up to what you are... A Transexual or Transgendered WOMAN, equally so as a Man.

But I also see that everyone is allowed to feel how they want about this. I can only state that for me, as I see it, if they lie, I'm not interested.

Like I said I have found myself attracted to Transexuals, and I have actually been sexually involved with a Post-Op Transgender woman, I have no issue with it and I knew from day one. To me open honesty and full disclosure is important.

Just the way I see things.

QSM



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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 10:29:10 AM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		Why does it matter? Because it does, to them. Does that make it easier for you? No, it certainly doesn't. But it's true for all of us that we have attributes that will not be attractive to other people.

I'm not sure I would read negative intent into preference and referring to someone as a "homophobic fuckstick" for honestly stating their preference includes some juvenile emotionalism that's not helpful or really paticularly true or relevant to the situation at hand.

People have the preferences they do and we all have them.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 10:54:45 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

You have Men who are Homophobic fuck sticks who beat up anything that they find themselves attracted to but resent that it's not Hetrosexual and thus feel it is wrong somehow.


The thing is, QSM, if a post-op MtF is dating MEN, then she IS heterosexual. Completely heterosexual. She is a -woman-, having a relationship with a -man-. What -else- constitutes 'heterosexual'?

If a MtF is dating -women-, then she's homosexual, not het. She is a -woman- dating -women.... does this make any sense?

For myself, I've decided that I've changed my mind. I think that, from this point, I don't care and won't ask. I'll just presume that anyone I encounter is whatever gender xhe claims hirself as, and that's good enough for me. If I find out later that xhe was something else in the past, it's just that... the past. It just isn't that important -- if a person is being true to hirself, whether I know that xhe's being true to hirself and whether I know that xhe was something else at some other time is irrelevant. Hopefully, if we get close, xhe'll trust me enough to -want- to share that information at some point in the future, but you know what, I'll be damned if I'll hold it against hir if xhe never gets to the point of being comfortable with -anyone- aside from hir doctors knowing.

Calla


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 10:57:20 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

Why does it matter? Because it does, to them.


That's not an answer, Laurell. "Because it is" does nothing about addressing the reasons behind these kinds of judgments, and until we understand what it is that is so threatening, it's going to be nearly -impossible- to figure out how to get past these biases...

So... for those who -do- feel like they'd be betrayed, and that this is a HUGE issue... why?

Calla


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:06:57 AM   
Lucienne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
For myself, I've decided that I've changed my mind. I think that, from this point, I don't care and won't ask. I'll just presume that anyone I encounter is whatever gender xhe claims hirself as, and that's good enough for me. If I find out later that xhe was something else in the past, it's just that... the past. It just isn't that important -- if a person is being true to hirself, whether I know that xhe's being true to hirself and whether I know that xhe was something else at some other time is irrelevant. Hopefully, if we get close, xhe'll trust me enough to -want- to share that information at some point in the future, but you know what, I'll be damned if I'll hold it against hir if xhe never gets to the point of being comfortable with -anyone- aside from hir doctors knowing.

Calla



Holy crap. Someone changed their mind on the internet and the universe didn't collapse.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:08:04 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
So... for those who -do- feel like they'd be betrayed, and that this is a HUGE issue... why?

I would expect such information to come out sometime during the dating part and before the sex part. I would expect the same of pretty much any really freakin huge life events. I'd feel misled if it did not. That being said, that feeling of being misled may or may not matter all that much. Since I never bought into the "100% honestly" party line, I don't expect that of my partners. I'd be looking for larger overall patterns of intent.

It's also worth pointing out that you make a clear assertive statement but you can't back it up. If we imagine some pill I could take that would rewrite my DNA and turn me into exactly a woman, it is still true that in some people's minds original equipment counts. Some people care about original equipment when they are doing auto restorations too. The fact that YOU don't care about it doesn't make that statement true for everyone else. Nor does anyone need to justify their preferences (actually, I doubt such a thing is even possible). Nor is this very surprising. For most humans, gender is the first and most significant category that they use to model other people. Messing with that is predictably going to cause reactions. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing, right thing or wrong thing is utterly irrelevant because it is how humans are. It's a lot like railing against the fact that men like youth & beauty and women like money (broad brush strokes here folks). Whether or not that is "fair" is a pointless question.

For me personally, I think that a physical body which was "female enough" would probably work for me. It's one of those situations though that I can't be sure of until I found myself in it. It is certainly not cut & dried in my mind... even if the physically female body in question was flawlessly female.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:13:02 AM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

So... for those who -do- feel like they'd be betrayed, and that this is a HUGE issue... why?

I'm not one of those that feels it's a huge issue, but...

Being born in the wrong body is going to leave some kind of psychological mark, right? We're talking eighteen years minimum of disconnect, and I suspect anyone who doesn't think they'll be dealing with that for the rest of their lives might be kidding themselves.

That hurt is a *massive* thing for a partner to hide-whatever your opinion on whether they should be expected to share that, you have to admit it's not something that can be just brushed off.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:14:57 AM   
OttersSwim


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Status: offline 		And so I think we come to a point where just about everyone on this thread can agree that being transgendered is complex and I will put forward that it is damn -hard-. 

As a transgendered person, you wake up with it, you go to sleep with it, and it is with you in some form all day long.  If you are out and presenting, or in transition, likely every person who you see, meet, encounter, is going to see your difference and have a reaction.  You live in a society that does not easily accept you, and if you are unfortunate enough to live in certain states (like New York), you can be fired from your job, denied employment, lose your house, be denied entry into any public place or business...you can have your children taken away from you in divorce, be ostracized from family and friends...you can be beaten or murdered...all because of the difference in who you really are inside, and what you look like on the outside.

I believe that it is easy to see how living this way...under fairly constant scrutiny and judgment...stigma...for years and years...might lead to different perceptions of the world, different views of government, different opinions on sexuality, and relationships.

How transgendered people deal with these feelings is a diverse as the group itself.  We don't always make choices that others agree with, are not always our highest selves.  We are people just like everyone else...but we are different from the majority, socially disadvantaged, and living in a time of change.

This will come up more and more.  We will all see more and more fluid gender expression and transgendered folk will become a group that is more common, and hopefully accepted. Our Western society has now moved to a place where such change is possible...and we will agitate for it because we are discontent.

Human societies are unruly beasts without conscience that move forward only by the actions and reactions of the discontent.
- Ottersswim

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 8/16/2010 11:18:37 AM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:20:26 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Status: offline 		OK, I'm going to start this with a disclaimer. This thread kept my brain on overdrive last night. I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative or hostile... I'm just really trying to see if I can wrap my brain around a mindset that I couldn't even grasp well in -myself- once I saw it for what it was.... so with that in mind, I really -do- appreciate -all- of the comments that people are making!

So... now we return to your regularly-scheduled posting!

quote:

It's also worth pointing out that you make a clear assertive statement but you can't back it up. If we imagine some pill I could take that would rewrite my DNA and turn me into exactly a woman, it is still true that in some people's minds original equipment counts.


Ok, so... the speculation is that for some, the issue is that the person doesn't have the original equipment they came with... so would it be an issue if the 'equipment' was for something other than sexual organs? Robin Williams got a bovine valve put in his heart? Would that deviation from the "natural" equipment be as disturbing for people if they didn't know that someone had, say, an animal part substituted for a human part, or a man's kidney placed in a woman's body? Or... taking it a bit further... I color my hair.. a LOT... does it -matter- that my hair isn't naturally blonde (or red, or black, or teal?) Would people feel hurt if I didn't disclose that my natural haircolor is sort of a mousy brownish blonde with a LOT of grey peppered through it?

I think I'm starting to agree with my stepdaughter. She wants there to be body modification shops on every corner, where you can go in and change anything about yourself that you just don't like, for any reason. Maybe, if we had that, we'd stop putting so much weight on appearances and start paying more attention to the stuff that really matters.




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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:24:15 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

And so I think we come to a point where just about everyone on this thread can agree that being transgendered is complex and I will put forward that it is damn -hard-. 

As a transgendered person, you wake up with it, you go to sleep with it, and it is with you in some form all day long.  If you are out and presenting, or in transition, likely every person who you see, meet, encounter, is going to see your difference and have a reaction.  You live in a society that does not easily accept you, and if you are unfortunate enough to live in certain states (like New York), you can be fired from your job, denied employment, lose your house, be denied entry into any public place or business...you can have your children taken away from you in divorce, be ostracized from family and friends...you can be beaten or murdered...all because of the difference in who you really are inside, and what you look like on the outside.

I believe that it is easy to see how living this way...under fairly constant scrutiny and judgment...stigma...for years and years...might lead to different perceptions of the world, different views of government, different opinions on sexuality, and relationships.

How transgendered people deal with these feelings is a diverse as the group itself.  We don't always make choices that others agree with, are not always our highest selves.  We are people just like everyone else...but we are different from the majority, socially disadvantaged, and living in a time of change.

This will come up more and more.  We will all see more and more fluid gender expression and transgendered folk will become a group that is more common, and hopefully accepted. Our Western society has now moved to a place where such change is possible...and we will agitate for it because we are discontent.

Human societies are unruly beasts without conscience that move forward only by the actions and reactions of the discontent.
- Ottersswim


I just want to thank OttersSwim for all the clearly articulated thoughts in this thread. I know from my own friend who is transgendered, it is a very difficult and complex situation and one that is not easily discussed with most people.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:26:39 AM   
SthrnCom4t


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Status: offline 		People sometimes lie to themselves. In their mind's eye, they have a vision of what they want to be (authentic self), but reality doesn't always live up to that vision.Our society inflicts values, and while our society is evolving, what is true today, was not true 5, 10, 20 years ago. Why else would gay men marry and have children, or kinky folks marry vanilla and wait 20+ years to acknowledge their kinky/sexual side? (not stating there aren't other reasons, this is just one). Oftentimes getting to a place of authenticity takes years.

QSM - I hope you can understand that the situation you found yourself in, with that other person who made up lies, was not about you. Being as open as you claim to be, from the outside perspective, and from your perspective, there was no reason for the lie. You were accepting and open to the idea....the environment you provided was safe; there was no cause for deception.

Have you considered it was all in the other person's head? The *need* to lie, is probably just as much a need to not face the person in the mirror looking back.

Calla's post regarding omission vs commission is quite articulate with wonderful distinctions.

What we need to remember is that *we* can do every thing right. We can provide that safe, accepting environment to the best of our abilities, and some people will still feel *an inner need* to lie about their circumstances. It doesn't have to be about sexuality....it could be about being married, it could be about having an addiction, it could be about having a prosthetic limb/attribute. (are post-op mastectomy women who wear prosthetic breasts lying?) Think about the inner *needs* of the other person, and realize what drives the behavior is likely not you.

Being lied to feels really bad. I'm sorry you had to experience that. What I learned from the whole experience, in the numerous types of situations I've encountered, is that I have to be my own judge. People tell me lots of things about themselves, but if they don't live up to my perception of their claim, its just not a compatible situation.

QSM - in the context of this thread, you continually state how open you are to being with a person who has gone through the difficultly of facing Gender Dysphoria. I would say the reason you weren't compatible with the person stated in your post, was because you have evolved past having to live in a false reality to be happy.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:30:26 AM   
leadership527


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Status: offline 		No, it would not be an issue for things other than sexual organs. Again, let's remember that in a 2 sex species, sex is going to be an issue which gets deep down into the lizard-brain part. If you're asking for rationality out of our most primitive drives, then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Note that in my mind, these things aren't even subject to rightness and wrongness. It is the human condition... and in fact the condition of pretty much every species with 2 sexes.

I totally agree with your step-daughter, by the way. And honestly, we are not all that far away from that magic pill I wrote about. It is fascinating to think what human society would be like if our bodies were totally malleable. In fact, lots and lots of science fiction authors have. If my body was not a reflection of anything other than what pill I took this morning or the last time I went into a Biosculpt spa, then you'd think that people would be forced to look past the obvious physical signs. My personal guess is that if such technology was developed, you'd see three phases...

a) Everyone makes themselves classically beautiful.
b) People start doing serious artistic expressions (mermaid's tails, feathery head plumes, etc) and the standards loosen up a bit. Original gender STILL matters a great deal.
c) The gender issue actually goes away.

My personal guess is that you'd be looking at a minimum of a century to get to point (c).. more likely several centuries.

_____________________________

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/16/2010 11:54:39 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

a) Everyone makes themselves classically beautiful.
b) People start doing serious artistic expressions (mermaid's tails, feathery head plumes, etc) and the standards loosen up a bit. Original gender STILL matters a great deal.
c) The gender issue actually goes away.


This concurs with what I've seen happening in the body modification world thus far. When I was in my teens, it was unthinkable that a "good" girl would be tattooed or pierced, and women who chose to do so were typically considered "unemployable" and "unmarriageable". When I was in my 30s, it was -still- sort of on the fringes, but people sort of looked the other way. However, business and industry -still- kept an iron hand on the right to decide whether or not an employee was allowed to decorate hir own body, and how xhe was allowed to do so. These days, I have recently been made aware that the corporation that I work for cannot require me to cover or remove my body modifications, and cannot discipline me in any way for expressing myself on my own body, with the THREE exceptions of gang-related language/imagery, racially-charged language or imagery, or sexually explicit language/imagery (and that last one is subject to interpretation.

Preferences are a big deal, and I get that. Being all about "free will", it would never be my idea of a "good" thing to try to regulate whether or not people could express their preferences. I guess there's just this part of my brain that really wants to know how people get to this point, why they stay there even in the face of a changing culture, and whether there's a rational reason that this -one- thing (sexuality) gets us over and over again (whether it's gay marriage or accepting trans persons for the gender that -they- claim themselves as).

I know you said that it isn't rational... but my thing is.... we have -brains- for a reason. If we're doing something irrational, shouldn't we be stopping to look at -why- we're doing it and actually decide whether it's the right thing to do or not? I mean, we can always choose to go ahead and make the same choice... it just won't be an unthinking response... we'll have a -reason- in the back of our minds so that we -do- choose and take responsibility for that choice.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/16/2010 11:55:36 AM >

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