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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 1:10:12 PM

ExquisiteStings

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There is absolutely NO excuse for any one to lie about what gender they want themselves or consider themselves to be, just so they can experience intimacy with another. Put yourself in that other's shoes. You're starting things out with a great big lie; who's to say that you won't lie and be secretive about other things as well. I think the majority of people don't appreciate someone lying to them or omitting such vital information as gender issues. And then you others, with that bullshit attitude, "oh well if you REALLY love that person, then gender won't matter". Uh uh...I'm straight and if I wanted a woman, I'd go and get one. If I date a man, I want him as a man in every way. I have absolutely NO interest in men who want to have their genitalia re arranged into that of a woman. And for a guy who in some way senses that about ME, if I don't bring it up, ('cause let's face it, it's not your everyday normal conversational subject to ask if someone intends to keep the genitalia they were born with) and opts to not be honest with me from the get go, thus not allowing me the option of backing out, then I say that that asshole DESERVES all the botched up shit that comes his/her/its way. I tell the truth to people, I'm honest, and I don't want to be lied to. Ever. That's MY opinion and I stick to it.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 1:23:37 PM

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Wow, issues much?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 1:27:12 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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Lady Lucretia brings up a point. Gender is, essentially, irrelevant to me. However, a person's -integrity- is -vitally- important. I don't necessarily presume that, because someone lied about -one- thing, they'll necessarily lie about something -else-, but I do think that it speaks volumes about a person if xhe's willing to lie about who xhe is to avoid confrontation and potential alienation. This goes back to a thread on the FemDom board earlier this week about whether or not we would 'settle' rather than being alone.

For me, I wouldn't accept a person into my home that I couldn't trust. That means that someone who has lied to me in the past is going to have a much harder time getting through the doors to come in... and if I discover deceit once they're inside, they'll have a -very- quick trip through the doors in the outbound direction. That being said, I've had people in my life who were pan-gendered and who were very discrete, until they knew you, about disclosing their gender diversion. I'm fine with that -- people can be as private as they need to, up until the point where we're entering into a committed relationship (and I'm not talking about married or engaged or whatever here -- just -any- commitment where we're making plans or considering one another as more than simple associates or casual acquaintances... and that includes close friendships). At that point, if we can't be honest with one another, we shouldn't be anything more than associates or acquaintances.

Calla

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 1:36:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Encountering people whom you don't know out in the world...Someone stares a bit at you in the grocery store, you really don't know what they are thinking

*chuckles* If it helps you any otter.... I am one of those people. Remember me -- the non-kinky, pretty much vanilla sensibilities guy? My general reactions would be along the lines of...

a) Wow, that's unusual <insert a bit of mental agitation here>
b) That person makes (or does not) an attractive woman.
c) Cool that that person has the strength to be themselves.
d) Oh crap! What was the checkout clerk saying to me? Oh shit... and didn't Carol want me to pickup eggs too?... <insert endless stream of MY life thoughts having nothing to do with you>

The fundamental rule I always apply is "Nobody cares that much about me and my doings." Carol has the same problem that you do but with her it's the collar. In HER mind, she's walking through life with a spotlight shining down on her with a sign over her head that says, "I'm a deviant misfit". It is, of course, not true (well, she is a deviant misfit, but there's no sign or spotlight). But in HER mind, people are pointing and laughing at her.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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(in reply to OttersSwim)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 1:45:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ...then I say that that asshole DESERVES all the botched up shit that comes his/her/its way. I tell the truth to people, I'm honest, and I don't want to be lied to. Ever. That's MY opinion and I stick to it.

Really? They deserve to be beaten to death with a fire extinguisher?
http://cbs4denver.com/local/zapata.murder.arrest.2.783694.html

Really? They deserve to be stabbed to death?
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/crime/transgender-murder-arrest/

Really? They deserve to be decapitated and dismembered?
http://www.queeried.com/suspect-in-jorge-steven-mercado-case-now-looks-likely-to-use-homosexual-panic-as-a-defense/

Many things cause folk to not disclose. It is not necessarily always the right thing to do, but no one deserves to be beaten, assaulted or murdered for them. No one.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 2:12:31 PM

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I am mostly straight, with the exception of having had a 2 year relationship with a girl. She was very feminine, and although we absolutely meshed on every other level, I couldn't get past the femininity when it came to sex, and realized it was a turnoff for me.
I am attracted to that middle ground between masculine and feminine. Super macho men and girly girls, and all those who embody the most extreme traits of a gender are typically people who stress me out. Aesthetically, I am attracted to something between a waifish teenaged boy in eyeliner and a well-muscled butch or F to M.. I wouldn't kick the right sissy out of bed, either, provided he wore the frillies well, and wasn't 100% focused on his clothes and nothing else. But a genuine M to F is a girly girl to me, so I rarely have an interest.
Having had a lot of difficulty relating to the male gender of late, I am beginning to wonder whether I, as a straight person who is attracted to the occasional butch, might be able to find a happy medium in such a person (since teenage boys are usually commitment phobic, annoying and illegal).

(in reply to BambiBoi)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 2:28:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Gender is defined as you what you were born with.
However, if one feels they were born into the wrong gender, I respect that.
I don't care what anyone identifies with as long as they are honest about who they are.

My ex husband had a good childhood male friend who got botched surgery to become a woman. She has lied consistently to everyone she meets and still to this day wonders why they get angry when they attempt to become intimate and she makes this big announcement.

She presents a lie and therefore by the time someone gets close enough to her that she trusts THEM, she proves untrustworthy because she allowed it to go that far without revealing who she is.

I hate when others are so afraid of who they are that they remove the informed choice from someone who might want to get involved with them.

I saw an interview with a m2f transsexual once. When asked about when she divulged this info to prospective partners (she generally waits) she said "I did not go through all of this just to tell people up front I was born a male". Astounding. Starting a relationship with just about the biggest lie you can possibly tell in the whole world about the most intimate thing any relationship is built on is just plain stupid and horribly wrong. I don't care how "difficult" of a position you are in. I don't have any compassion at all for these folks. I have the utmost sympathy for the people they deceive.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 2:31:22 PM

AQuietSimpleMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

quote:

ORIGINAL: ...then I say that that asshole DESERVES all the botched up shit that comes his/her/its way. I tell the truth to people, I'm honest, and I don't want to be lied to. Ever. That's MY opinion and I stick to it.

Really? They deserve to be beaten to death with a fire extinguisher?
http://cbs4denver.com/local/zapata.murder.arrest.2.783694.html

Really? They deserve to be stabbed to death?
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/crime/transgender-murder-arrest/

Really? They deserve to be decapitated and dismembered?
http://www.queeried.com/suspect-in-jorge-steven-mercado-case-now-looks-likely-to-use-homosexual-panic-as-a-defense/

Many things cause folk to not disclose. It is not necessarily always the right thing to do, but no one deserves to be beaten, assaulted or murdered for them. No one.

No they do not deserve that, do you think it would have happened if they told the truth first, how about if they lied and then someone eventually found out?

The Point is no one deserves this kind of violence, but no one deserves to be lied to either.

QSM

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 2:54:01 PM

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The thing is, it's not a lie for a trans person to identify themselves and be perceived as the gender they identify and live as, especially if they pass well as that gender. If anything, it would be less honest to pretend to be the gender they were assigned at birth. I think honesty is important, but I see trans status as being similar to, say, telling a potential partner that you're infertile or something like that. It's a conversation that should happen, but it's not something you should have to announce the moment you meet someone.

The idea that a trans person is actually the gender they were assigned at birth is really insulting. I can understand why some straight people are uncomfortable with the idea of dating a trans person, and I think that's okay, but finding out that a potential partner used to have a penis doesn't mean that they're a man (or vice versa).

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 3:54:39 PM

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the problem that everyone is having is that they are biased....it is a fact, that transgenders are the most oppressed of all minorities in the US..... and possibly the world.... it is a fact that most people are taught about trans issues through the media... It is also a fact that the media for the most part perpetuates stereotypes..... all i'm saying is sometimes all of you have to check yourselves on your prejudices and your ignorance..everyone is ignorant and everyone has prejudices...... those who can put them aside and see truth are the "good" people....

let's look at the most common and hurtful prejudices i have seen on this board..

1. someone said that they can always tell if a person is trans "even the Asian ones" seriously this is a joke.... i'm not saying you can't for sure tell with many.. guess what, those are the ones that aren't "passing"... however there is plenty of cisgendered women that you would never in a million years think were cisgendered and plenty of transwomen and men that you would never in a million years think were trans... chances are that you have come across them in your life and were never the wiser.....

2. and this is by far the biggest one. This is what most of the people here are having the hardest time shaking....."many people see transsexual women as men or something less than a woman" fact, legally a transsexual is a woman....fact, the brains in transsexuals are proven to be identical to those of a cisgendered woman......fact, hormonally a transexual woman is the same as a cisgendered woman..... fact, chromosomes can not accurately be used to gauge a persons sex....fact no one says a cisgendered woman without functioning ovaries is any less than a woman....fact, it is now possible to put ovaries and a functioning uterus in a transexual....

3. "it is a lie for a transsexual woman not to disclose that they are in fact men" well as i have proven using facts in #2 it is not a lie as they are in fact women....I do not think that a person should have to lay out their past and or medical history at the feet of a date...... I believe that doing so is unsafe and unjust....

(in reply to hematitan)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:15:14 PM

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For me, if you were born with a penis you are a man, born with a vagina you are a woman.

If you have different thoughts about that, I absolutely respect that, but gender is one thing, for me, that is black and white, with no gray.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:17:45 PM

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factually you are completely wrong..... that doesn't bother you jstanothersub?

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:24:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

factually you are completely wrong..... that doesn't bother you jstanothersub?

Well, a tree, because motorcycles don't have doors.

No I am not bothered, and no, I don't see where I am factually wrong. Perhaps you can explain it to me.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:25:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

For me, if you were born with a penis you are a man, born with a vagina you are a woman.

If you have different thoughts about that, I absolutely respect that, but gender is one thing, for me, that is black and white, with no gray.

quote:

2. and this is by far the biggest one. This is what most of the people here are having the hardest time shaking....."many people see transsexual women as men or something less than a woman" fact, legally a transsexual is a woman....fact, the brains in transsexuals are proven to be identical to those of a cisgendered woman......fact, hormonally a transexual woman is the same as a cisgendered woman..... fact, chromosomes can not accurately be used to gauge a persons sex....fact no one says a cisgendered woman without functioning ovaries is any less than a woman....fact, it is now possible to put ovaries and a functioning uterus in a transexual....

i think that pretty much sums it up

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:27:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

For me, if you were born with a penis you are a man, born with a vagina you are a woman.

If you have different thoughts about that, I absolutely respect that, but gender is one thing, for me, that is black and white, with no gray.

But you're not really respecting it if you maintain that trans people (and people with non-binary genders) are really the gender associated with their genitals. That's basically telling people that how they identify is wrong.

And physical sex can be more complicated than having a penis or vagina. What about intersex people, and other people who are born with ambiguous genitalia? What if someone was born with a uterus, but no vagina?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:32:51 PM

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From the OP...

Hello Friends,

I am interested in how you define a gender. Specifically, I am interested in how people with strong orientations (straight/gay/lesbian) feel about when the line between gender roles and biological sex start to blur.
____________________________________________________

For me, there is no blurring of the line. If you think differently, I totally respect that, and support your right to have that opinion.

Opinions are not facts, neither mine or yours. They are our opinions on how we see something.

I see a dick, I see a man. I see a pussy, I see a woman.

Simple stuff really.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:41:12 PM

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quote:

I see a dick, I see a man. I see a pussy, I see a woman.

Simple stuff really.

sooo by that logic you accept post op transsexuals as there true gender? well then what are we arguing about?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:41:57 PM

Zevar

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Comments have been mentioned in this thread regarding lying about gender identity. Clearly concealing information about gender identity does occur for different reasons. Further the choices of others are not the same for everyone thereafter. To say otherwise is merely generalizing which when examined is usually found to be unreliable.

Point in fact: I have a very good friend. She is a lovely lady. Very feminine and quite appealing to look at. Her feminine beauty is beyond comprehension. Her internal being is tenderly delicate and naturally induced. I enjoy her company as do many gentlemen I know. However at a time in my life she would frequently disappear for periods of time to then reappear unannounced. When inquiring as to why she would disappear to only reappear unannounced she would avoid answering the question.

At one point it became evident that she was not feeling comfortable to discuss this behavior of hers that did have a negative affect on those she deemed as friends. I asked her to dinner and thereafter the meal presented my concerns as diplomatically as possible to her. Upon further inquire she finally spoke of her realistic fears to me. It was somehow connected to what she had witnessed and escaped at one time in her life.

Apparently she had witnessed a friend bludgeoned by a group of men outside a downtown Dance Club she frequented. My friend told me how this post op MtF transsexual friend of hers had began to care for a man that she met at work. This man had been told by this post op MtF transsexual of her journey with gender identity. It had appeared that he was fine with this being told him and had not changed a thing between them.

However his brother was not ok with the fact that his sister-n-law to be was a post op MtF transsexual woman. Some friends of his apparently had told others who were known to be involved with a group of White Supremacist and according to how the story went this is what instigated the bludgeoning of this MtF transsexual woman. My friend was naturally horrified as she had been their and had escaped the beating due to her ability out run her would be assailant.

Her friend was hospitalized for a long period of time. My friend was beyond sorry for disappearing but felt she had to do this or be treated similarly as her friend had. Her others fears presented for disappearing and then reappearing were due to her recently getting close to a particular mono-gendered heterosexual men that had knowledge of her journey with gender identity or rather Gender Dysphoria. She feared she her life would be endangered to be seen with him in public as the same downtown Dance Club where this horrific incident had taken place. I assured her that she did have support and this concern could be Safely discussed. Even then this did not calm her fears.

I do not believe that the primary reason(s) whyall MtF transsexual women or FtM transsexual men choose to not disclose their gender identity is due to being maliciously deceptive. My good friend and her best friend did disclose upfront about their journey with Gender Dysphoria and in doing so were not given due respect for being transparent. I think that gender issues brings up all sort of concerns for those who are dealing with Gender Dysphoria and their Gender Identity.

There are multiple reasons why the facts of their gender is not disclosed upfront. To say that the primary reason(s) is due to being deceptive is like saying that those who are not dealing with Gender Dysphoria will be betrayed by everyone who is dealing with Gender Dysphoria. I believe the primary reason(s) in most instances for not disclosing is done so until a level of trust is built. Perhap this is something that is due more in fact toward a self survival reason as opposed to maliciously lying to others with no sense of right or wrong & wanting to harm others in a willful manner simply because someone is dealing with Gender Dysphoria.

I applaud anyone who is has to deal with Gender Dysphoria thus their Gender Identity. As a culture there is far too much ignorance surrounding Gender Identity due to a lack of knowledge. It is beyond sad when those we care for are beaten and treated in a way that is less than human simply due to their Gender Identity. I cannot imagine telling anyone my gender identity{biological heterosexual male} & then being thrashed for being who you were created to be. Utterly foolish!

How can those of us who do not have to deal with Gender Dysphoria thus their Gender Identity judge someone who fears for the safety of their life thus chooses to not disclose something that is natural for all i.e.: Gender Identity? I know I have great compassion for anyone who suffers at the hands of those who think they have some right to treat others who were created differently in an inhumane manner. I have NO shame in loving others who were differently created.

Who am I that someone else is not, aye? Does my biological disposition give me rights that others who must deal with Gender Dysphoria does not? I know not, absolutely not! What it has done is present gender in a way that I had not considered prior to being exposed to those who are not of the Binary Gender Spectrum. Imagine that, aye. Differences in gender that I had not considered being a mono-gendered male all of my life. I thank those who have crossed my path bringing with them opportunties for me to learn a fuller understanding of gender.

Loving another knows no boundary lines for myself. When I love someone it is not due to their gender and definitely not due to anything other than who they are as a person, first and foremost. However it is my obligation to also present to those I become aqainted with that to be honest with myself is a Safe choice on their part. If I do otherwise I am just as much accountable for the outcome if not more so than another is. I get to decide how I convey my trustworthiness to others. Not the other way around even when it applies to issues surrounding gender.

Take care!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/14/2010 4:43:38 PM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:45:16 PM

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FR..........

Ok, I will admit that I am not very knowledgeable on this subject.

But chromosomes do not determine gender?

Really?. I am going to need a link or at least a pointer in the right direction about where I can read something on that.

If XX and XY are not valid, what is?

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:50:15 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84

quote:

I see a dick, I see a man. I see a pussy, I see a woman.

Simple stuff really.

sooo by that logic you accept post op transsexuals as there true gender? well then what are we arguing about?

I am not arguing. I stated I see you as what you were born with. You can rearrange your bits all you want to, and dress up as anopther gender, but, for me, that is something I could not get past in a romantic relationship.

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