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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:51:14 PM   
sweetlindsey84


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well to start with many women are xy and have ais (androgen insensitivity syndrome) many people are poly mosaic (some cells are xx some are xy) some people are xxy xxxy and tons of other things can happen as well.....

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 4:56:27 PM   
Jeffff


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Chromosomes are long, stringy aggregates of genes that carry heredity information. They are composed of DNA and proteins and are located within the nucleus of our cells. Chromosomes determine everything from hair color and eye color to sex. Whether you are a male or female depends on the presence or absence of certain chromosomes.
In human sexual reproduction, two distinct gametes fuse to form a zygote. Gametes are reproductive cells produced by a type of cell division called meiosis. They contain only one set of chromosomes and are said to be haploid (one set of 22 autosomes and one sex chromosome). When the haploid male and female gametes unite in a process called fertilization, they form what is called a zygote. The zygote is diploid, meaning that it contains two sets of chromosomes (two sets of 22 autosomes and two sex chromosomes).

The male gametes or sperm cells in humans and other mammals are heterogametic and contain one of two types of sex chromosomes. They are either X or Y. The female gametes or eggs however, contain only the X sex chromosome and are homogametic. The sperm cell determines the sex of an individual in this case. If a sperm cell containing an X chromosome fertilizes an egg, the resulting zygote will be XX or female. If the sperm cell contains a Y chromosome, then the resulting zygote will be XY or male


The above was an excerpt from this.


http://biology.about.com/od/basicgenetics/p/chromosgender.htm


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:02:19 PM   
hematitan


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There's a difference between physical sex, which is determined by things like chromosomes and hormones, and gender, which is commonly recognized as being a psychological or sociological construct. For most people, physical sex determines gender, but not for everyone. Just because someone's sex is male or female doesn't guarantee that their gender is.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:03:33 PM   
Zevar


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http://www.isna.org/faq/

http://frank.mtsu.edu/~phollowa/5sexes.html

A few links for those who are interested. Enjoy!

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:04:35 PM   
OttersSwim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84


quote:


I see a dick, I see a man.  I see a pussy, I see a woman.

Simple stuff really.


sooo by that logic you accept post op transsexuals as there true gender? well then what are we arguing about?
I am not arguing.  I stated I see you as what you were born with.  You can rearrange your bits all you want to, and dress up as anopther gender, but, for me, that is something I could not get past in a romantic relationship.


And so...if we met on the street or shared a meal and you knew I was trans, and was presenting as female.  Would you refer to me as he?  Would you use my female name instead of my male one?  Would you treat me as the gender I was presenting as?  Make me feel like I was a whole person?  How would you feel as I got up to use the woman's restroom?

Would you honor my desire within myself to be authentic, and unmolested by your sense of morality?

If the answer is "no" to any of those questions, then I will respectfully say that you need further introspection of these concepts...and failing a positive outcome, you should vote Republican in the next election.


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:04:52 PM   
Jeffff


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Ok, I can dig that. As far as that goes, whatever floats your boat, I am good with it.

But it was posted that chromosome are not a valid way to determine a biological fact.

I am will to read something on that. I am not willing to accept it just because it was posted.

I have spent too much time in P&R for that...:)

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:06:12 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

The above was an excerpt from this.


http://biology.about.com/od/basicgenetics/p/chromosgender.htm


Jeffff, my darling, you know I adore you, but the url has the word 'basic' in it for a reason; the reality is more complicated than that.

I don't have the energy to find links, though.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:06:58 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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I have been with a Post Op... It was AWESOME.. but it doesn't change the fact they were born male... Xhe was Open about it from Moment one, I was aware and didn't care. It was almost exactly like the real thing... only difference was that things were missing on the inside... Cervex, G-Spot, Vaginal Tissue... But it was equally enjoyable.

I consider myself a Heterosexual male, I find I am attracted to MANY TS/TG/TV people. I have even considered being sexual with Pre-Op and even Transvestite individuals, all I want is HONESTY. That is all that matters to me....Attraction and Honesty.

Some of the sexiest women I ever met were born as men.

But the fact remains they were born as Men, and that information should be disclosed especially to someone you plan on getting involved with.

Just my opinion.

QSM

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:07:05 PM   
Jeffff


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Thank you Zevar.

I will with hold further comments until I have perused those.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:09:04 PM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
then I will respectfully say that you need further introspection of these concepts...and failing a positive outcome, you should vote Republican in the next election.


This is not fair... I am a Republican.

And if you view my above reply you will see how I feel on this issue.

QSM

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:09:45 PM   
sexyred1


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I think it is highly fascinating that everyone is getting so angry at those who say they could not get past a gender change in a romantic relationship.

Interesting that because someone has preferences they are being ragged on and called Republicans.

I guess if someone came into the thread and said, OMG, that is all I want, are transgendered people as lovers, that would make you happier.

I can assure those of you who are getting upset that there would be just as many up in arms about my above statement.

So far, I have not seen a single negative statement about transgendered people at all. I see people who have stated clearly that they do not like being lied to about someone's gender. What is so shocking about that?

It is as much of a lie as any other type of lie and there are no valid reasons for lying. No one here said anyone deserves to be beaten or tossed out of society or shunned because of their transgendered nature and therefore those who do not wish to be lied to or who cannot get past that in a ROMANTIC relationship deserve their preferences as much as you do.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 8/14/2010 5:11:24 PM >

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:10:01 PM   
sweetlindsey84


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well you got internet sooo google it? jefffff lmao

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:14:19 PM   
sweetlindsey84


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saying a transsexual is lying about their gender is extremely offensive.... check yourself...
also if someone doesn't like trans well ya know that's fine..... problem is these people use hateful logic to justify their decision.... that is why people are angry....... sooo check yourself dude

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:14:46 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim


sooo by that logic you accept post op transsexuals as there true gender? well then what are we arguing about?
I am not arguing.  I stated I see you as what you were born with.  You can rearrange your bits all you want to, and dress up as anopther gender, but, for me, that is something I could not get past in a romantic relationship.


And so...if we met on the street or shared a meal and you knew I was trans, and was presenting as female.  Would you refer to me as he?  Would you use my female name instead of my male one?  Would you treat me as the gender I was presenting as?  Make me feel like I was a whole person?  How would you feel as I got up to use the woman's restroom?

Would you honor my desire within myself to be authentic, and unmolested by your sense of morality?

If the answer is "no" to any of those questions, then I will respectfully say that you need further introspection of these concepts...and failing a positive outcome, you should vote Republican in the next election.



Otters, I don't think it is morality.

People are indeed allowed preferences.

I would not date a gay man, that doesn't mean I see them as immoral or evil

Not wanting to date a man doesn't make me so either.




ETA... oops I fucked up the quote thingy.

< Message edited by Jeffff -- 8/14/2010 5:16:33 PM >


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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:15:29 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84


quote:


I see a dick, I see a man.  I see a pussy, I see a woman.

Simple stuff really.


sooo by that logic you accept post op transsexuals as there true gender? well then what are we arguing about?
I am not arguing.  I stated I see you as what you were born with.  You can rearrange your bits all you want to, and dress up as anopther gender, but, for me, that is something I could not get past in a romantic relationship.


And so...if we met on the street or shared a meal and you knew I was trans, and was presenting as female.  Would you refer to me as he?  Would you use my female name instead of my male one?  Would you treat me as the gender I was presenting as?  Make me feel like I was a whole person?  How would you feel as I got up to use the woman's restroom?

Would you honor my desire within myself to be authentic, and unmolested by your sense of morality?

If the answer is "no" to any of those questions, then I will respectfully say that you need further introspection of these concepts...and failing a positive outcome, you should vote Republican in the next election.

I would always think of you as a he.  That does not mean I wouldn't call you the name you want to be called.  If you went to the ladies room, well, I use the mens room in bars frequently because there is less of a line, so unless you stood and peed in the sink, I don't think that would bother me.

I would never put you down.  I have been put down enough in my life for being "different" and I find no fun in putting down others.

Will I ever see Chastity Bono as a male? No.  If I met her and was hot for her and found out she had started life as a woman, I would be pissed off at the deception.

As for voting a republican, I vote for the person, not the party, so that could happen.  I did vote for Obama.  I have yet to decide if that was wise or not though.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:21:33 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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Lindsey, I thought I recognised your photo from before, so I checked your posting history, and found basically this exact same argument on another thread.

You know how you didn't persuade anyone then? You won't now.

This is a really really really touchy subject for most people, and this stuff isn't black and white-the fact that a transgender person used to biologically be a person of the opposite gender is a huge part of their life to hide from a partner, whether you'd like that to be the case or not, and people are going to be upset if they find out their partner has neglected to mention such a huge part of their life.

That idea makes people edgy, and calling people morons etc makes them edgier still-this won't ever be a successful discussion if everyone gets aggressive.

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:24:50 PM   
Jeffff


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I am willing to accept that I had the science wrong.

I am not willing to accept that someones preference makes them a bad person.


Also, I will not be calling anyone here a moron.

When I go down, it will be in a ball of flames!

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:31:04 PM   
Jeffff


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Hate?...... I saw no hate.

Ignorance?... perhaps, none of us know everything about everything.

Once again, I would not date a gay man. I don't think I could date a post-op woman. I know I would not date a per-op.

How exactly does this make me bad?



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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:33:18 PM   
sweetlindsey84


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it doesn't make you bad not to want to date one it makes you bad when you say you don't want to date one because they are really men..... that's insulting

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RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer - 8/14/2010 5:33:58 PM   
onlylocalsneeded


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Definition of gender, as it relates to humans:

2 a : sex <the feminine gender> b : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

Therefore the traits of gender are used to help you determine which SEX the person is, and the sex is biological. So, yes, indeed, what the persons biological nature is by genitalia and other characteristics, determine what their gender is, regardless of what their mind is telling them.

In the case of, say, that woman runner who had all the problems, she was mostly woman, she had women's genitalia and she identified as a woman, so by all standards that humans, down through the ages, could have used to determine her gender, she was female.

My daughter has a friend who is a hermaphrodite and people are trying to force "him" to remain a man because they chose "his" gender for "him" shortly after birth. "He" at a young age was trained to act like a boy, dress like a boy, and everything was fine until puberty struck and "his" boobs started growing in and "his" period started. "He" wants to be a woman, and "his" family is threatening to disown "him" if "he" gets a sex change.

Now, "he" will be a manly looking woman, because they pumped "him" full of male hormones and had "his" breast buds cut out and basically mutilated what would have been a perfectly fine young lady who would have gladly chosen to have her penis removed instead. "He" had far more characteristics of being female, by nature; but, now "he" looks like a big hairy man with no boobs and no period and no chance of becoming pregnant and "he" dresses like a man and "he" is forced to live as a man. So, by your arguments, "he" is a man, because if you met him, all his characteristics of dress, actions, looks, etc. are manly. Yet "he" wants to be a woman.

Besides which, most of those people who pretend to be women, don't really want to be women. They want to be "feminine" and they sit there, acting as if they have no brain and talking over girly matters and flirting and primping and generally acting like something that real women abhor and are ashamed of being included in their Sex, when it happens more by nature than by plastic surgeon.

Gender is sex, sex is determined by birth - even with hermaphrodites, most of them are more one way than the other, physically.

Mental health and self-acceptance are a total other matter, altogether.

Men who have fake vaginas made are just men with fake vaginas and the men who go out of their way to get T-girls, in whatever stage of change, are homosexuals, not straight men, because T-girls are not, in any way, part of the feminine gender.

Which, that's their business if they want to have fake vaginas or they want to chase after fake vaginas, or whatever. But, I do wish they would stop listing themselves, the T-girls, as women, and, most especially, that the men who will accept T-girls, for whatever purpose, would stop listing themselves as straight as it is a big waste of time for the people who really are straight and who really want to get together with other people who are also straight.

In fact, I think this site should have a total different category for them. Which, uhm, they do for "transgendered" (so please use it, T-girls!) but, they don't for men who are not "straight" or "homosexual" or "bi" because they want nothing to do with penises, and they don't want real vaginas, they want fake ones. They need a "transgender chaser" category for sexuality.

Could also use a "straight, but, fat-aphobic or straight, but, chubby chaser category as well.
But,

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