RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer

RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (Full Version)

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stef -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:36:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 ...but the fact is i am representing the oppressed in this matter.... Funny, but I don't feel oppressed and I certainly didn't appoint you as my spokesperson nor do I require your representation. ~stef

thishereboi -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:37:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BKSir No, my dear Boi, they really make her sound more like a young teen trying to incite a flame war. Very very few of the trans people and gender neutral people are anywhere near as immature and ridiculous as her. I'd appreciate if you would not make that silly mistake again. ;) Sorry, I will try to do better[:)]

Jeffff -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:37:07 PM)
Gee stef...... that was almost.....nice. You feeling ok?

thishereboi -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:39:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff Gee stef...... that was almost.....nice. You feeling ok? It was pretty awesome, wasn't it[:)]

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:40:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 the problem that everyone is having is that they are biased....it is a fact, that transgenders are the most oppressed of all minorities in the US..... and possibly the world.... it is a fact that most people are taught about trans issues through the media... It is also a fact that the media for the most part perpetuates stereotypes..... all i'm saying is sometimes all of you have to check yourselves on your prejudices and your ignorance..everyone is ignorant and everyone has prejudices...... those who can put them aside and see truth are the "good" people.... let's look at the most common and hurtful prejudices i have seen on this board.. 1. someone said that they can always tell if a person is trans "even the Asian ones" seriously this is a joke.... i'm not saying you can't for sure tell with many.. guess what, those are the ones that aren't "passing"... however there is plenty of cisgendered women that you would never in a million years think were cisgendered and plenty of transwomen and men that you would never in a million years think were trans... chances are that you have come across them in your life and were never the wiser..... 2. and this is by far the biggest one. This is what most of the people here are having the hardest time shaking....."many people see transsexual women as men or something less than a woman" fact, legally a transsexual is a woman....fact, the brains in transsexuals are proven to be identical to those of a cisgendered woman......fact, hormonally a transexual woman is the same as a cisgendered woman..... fact, chromosomes can not accurately be used to gauge a persons sex....fact no one says a cisgendered woman without functioning ovaries is any less than a woman....fact, it is now possible to put ovaries and a functioning uterus in a transexual.... 3. "it is a lie for a transsexual woman not to disclose that they are in fact men" well as i have proven using facts in #2 it is not a lie as they are in fact women....I do not think that a person should have to lay out their past and or medical history at the feet of a date...... I believe that doing so is unsafe and unjust.... that is more or less my entire position please tell me why that is wrong?

CeriseNin -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:41:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 BK to be honest your absolutely right i have been extremely combative here on this thread and it is not at all my normal way but i am particularly pissed off about this shit today..... and to be honest but i am not even remotely the only one being combative here but the fact is i am representing the oppressed in this matter.... and i refuse to back down first on this issue... maybe if others admit to their own wrongness we can have peace here All right, your heart may be in the right place, but you've done nothing but toss insults and "lmao" - - not educate. If you really want to help the oppressed, learn how to discuss and educate with grace & understanding.

Jeffff -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:42:19 PM)
Poor sweetlindsey, that is a great misrepresentation of your posts. You are the only one who has resorted to name calling. Everyone else has addressed your posts. With the possible exception of stef, who simply requested you not speak for her.

laurell3 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:42:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 BK to be honest your absolutely right i have been extremely combative here on this thread and it is not at all my normal way but i am particularly pissed off about this shit today..... and to be honest but i am not even remotely the only one being combative here but the fact is i am representing the oppressed in this matter.... and i refuse to back down first on this issue... maybe if others admit to their own wrongness we can have peace here I've been on CM for a long time. The people you are attacking needlessly like a 5 year old that's had their candy taken away are the very people on this board that would stand up for anyone that was being attacked and oppressed ANYWHERE. You cannot begin to know how ignorant your words are. NOW you're going to get on topic? Do you not understand that it's unlikely anyone here would feel that you have the ability to have a rational discussion on this topic at all? Who has been behaving like the ignorant and combative one here? The people you've been tossing out insults like a politician with penny candy, didn't make those claims in your original post by the way. Kudos to you, if you were the spokesperson, you'd have set back trans relationships a few decades.

Jeffff -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:43:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 the problem that everyone is having is that they are biased....it is a fact, that transgenders are the most oppressed of all minorities in the US..... and possibly the world.... it is a fact that most people are taught about trans issues through the media... It is also a fact that the media for the most part perpetuates stereotypes..... all i'm saying is sometimes all of you have to check yourselves on your prejudices and your ignorance..everyone is ignorant and everyone has prejudices...... those who can put them aside and see truth are the "good" people.... let's look at the most common and hurtful prejudices i have seen on this board.. 1. someone said that they can always tell if a person is trans "even the Asian ones" seriously this is a joke.... i'm not saying you can't for sure tell with many.. guess what, those are the ones that aren't "passing"... however there is plenty of cisgendered women that you would never in a million years think were cisgendered and plenty of transwomen and men that you would never in a million years think were trans... chances are that you have come across them in your life and were never the wiser..... 2. and this is by far the biggest one. This is what most of the people here are having the hardest time shaking....."many people see transsexual women as men or something less than a woman" fact, legally a transsexual is a woman....fact, the brains in transsexuals are proven to be identical to those of a cisgendered woman......fact, hormonally a transexual woman is the same as a cisgendered woman..... fact, chromosomes can not accurately be used to gauge a persons sex....fact no one says a cisgendered woman without functioning ovaries is any less than a woman....fact, it is now possible to put ovaries and a functioning uterus in a transexual.... 3. "it is a lie for a transsexual woman not to disclose that they are in fact men" well as i have proven using facts in #2 it is not a lie as they are in fact women....I do not think that a person should have to lay out their past and or medical history at the feet of a date...... I believe that doing so is unsafe and unjust.... that is more or less my entire position please tell me why that is wrong? There is nothing wrong with anything there. Nothing at all. It is everything that followed that.

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:43:53 PM)
you might be right cerise at some point this became more about the argument and less about the content i take at least half of the responsibility about that so please i invite everyone to talk about the issues now and not what a bitch i am K

DomImus -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:44:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 ok everyone is doing a good job attacking me but please why not try attacking my message not me personally i have tried my best to do that with you people Why must this be an either/or issue with you? The OP asked how people view this issue. People have responded. Many have agreed with you. Others have not. You have gone on a crusade against the latter with a plethora of "facts" to prove you are right and they are wrong. This is not about right or wrong. Okay, the OP was not about right or wrong. You (with some help) have turned it into a good versus evil discussion.

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 4:45:18 PM)
thank you jeff the thing is if you read back that is where it started

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:00:05 PM)
obviously I let my anger get out of control here and i feel horrible about my actions... i was no longer thinking clearly and some of the things i wrote were clearly out of line..... some of the things i wrote i don't feel were out of line at all but due to my behaviour my points may no longer be seen as valid so i hope some of you will accept my apology... :,(

laurell3 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:02:12 PM)
That's good sweetlindsey, because I'm not the one that made any. With regard to your most recent post, I agree with you except: I'm not so sure about this one: quote: 3. "it is a lie for a transsexual woman not to disclose that they are in fact men" well as i have proven using facts in #2 it is not a lie as they are in fact women....I do not think that a person should have to lay out their past and or medical history at the feet of a date...... I believe that doing so is unsafe and unjust.... I tend to pull all my major skeletons out of my closet early on and lay them all out on the table including medical history and my past (which isn't all pretty) and I believe that honesty is important as soon as it's rationally possible and appropriate to give that information out. If they choose to leave, they do. Additionally if isn't what you described in #2 and that person DOES have a different appearance than they have genitalia, I think to wait until a date is in progress or has happened to disclose that would be deceptive and most possibly more unsafe for them. Whether that person views themselves as a woman or not isn't the only question, it is whether the date does as well and they do also have the right to chose their orientation with honest information as well.

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:06:05 PM)
i'm just going to have to disagree with you laurell.... i think it is not as easy or as black and white as you make it out to be

laurell3 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:07:18 PM)
You're welcome to...and I'm not trying to make it out as black and white, almost nothing in life is. You can tell me why by the way! [;)]

OttersSwim -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:07:51 PM)
I do have to respond to the statement that the folks in this thread are the "oppressors"... I honestly have encountered one person on this site that seemed to be transphobic and as far as I know, she doesn't post here anymore. My overall experience is that kinky people are among the most accepting group of trans folk I have ever encountered. I have spent two Thunder's (Thunder in the Mountains) presenting as female for the whole event and have encountered only acceptance and friendliness. I have multiple friends in the lifestyle who are totally accepting. Kink is an environment where I feel safe, at home, and comfortable in my own skin - even when that skin is wearing a dress! [;)]

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:09:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sweetlindsey84 the funny thing is many of you here infact think i am trans..... lol but not even one of you asked...... i think that proves my point perfectlly lmao Actually, I checked your profile and you list yourself as female, which, for the purposes of this board, is more than sufficient for me. I have to say that you seem to have a well-developed "victim" mentality. Calla

LadyPact -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:10:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 That's good sweetlindsey, because I'm not the one that made any. With regard to your most recent post, I agree with you except: I'm not so sure about this one: quote: 3. "it is a lie for a transsexual woman not to disclose that they are in fact men" well as i have proven using facts in #2 it is not a lie as they are in fact women....I do not think that a person should have to lay out their past and or medical history at the feet of a date...... I believe that doing so is unsafe and unjust.... I tend to pull all my major skeletons out of my closet early on and lay them all out on the table including medical history and my past (which isn't all pretty) and I believe that honesty is important as soon as it's rationally possible and appropriate to give that information out. If they choose to leave, they do. Additionally if isn't what you described in #2 and that person DOES have a different appearance than they have genitalia, I think to wait until a date is in progress or has happened to disclose that would be deceptive and most possibly more unsafe for them. Whether that person views themselves as a woman or not isn't the only question, it is whether the date does as well and they do also have the right to chose their orientation with honest information as well. I have to say that I agree with this. As with many other subjects, I am all for individual's rights. However, it has to be respected that the other person that someone is interacting with has rights, too. That includes their dating preferences. We're on a site where the merits of consent are constantly preached. If information is withheld, such as a gender which is not what a person appears to be, I honestly feel that person has a right to know so they can make an informed choice. That option shouldn't be taken away from them.

sweetlindsey84 -> RE: Defining Gender: No Wrong Answer (8/15/2010 5:14:02 PM)
ok well first of all how much time do you think it takes to get to know a person.... i understand some people might have sex on the first date...when they do though there is going to be plenty of things that they don't know about that person that might not please them on both sides of the table... people don't usually tell someone they just met about if they were raped or any other traumatic events in their life that may have shaped who they are (some do and that is a personal choice)......I feel like it is a personal choice when a trans person tells....to say they are lying because they don't is both wrong and insulting.... honestlly if you try to use compassion and put yourself in their shoes sometimes the world looks alot different ya know?

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