Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 Page: <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 10:18:05 PM   
taniatv


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: taniatv

Freedom of Religion or in this case way to be insensitive.

Not disputing their right to build just questioning their indifference to people's feelings.


Muslims are people too and most of them have feelings of their own.

I always get annoyed with people who think that their own special feelings are somehow superior to the worthless "feelings" of those they're arguing with.


Am I high here or is this the worst case of putting words in one's mouth that I have read?

Where did I say that muslims are not people or don't have feelings? Where did I say that juliaoceania's feelings are worthless and where have I come across that I think my feelings are somehow special and superior?

I have acknowledged their right to practice their religion and for them to build a place of worship. I just questioned the location they chose. These people are not ignorant, they will know the decision to build the house in that place would upset a lot of people. Why there? Why there Elisabella? Yes I know they alreacy have a facility there but why expand it with all the bells and whistles.

It appears also that the muslims in question might agree with my sentiment now anyway....... now, that they are lacking the funds to build, this sounds like shyster opportunism at it's worst if true. Why decide to build there in the first place?



(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 10:22:58 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
Uh, what part of it is going to be a community center with a cooking school and basketball court and NOT a mosque has everyone failed to grasp?

Add to that it is NOT visible from ground zero, unless you walk two blocks from one corner of the WTC site, or the fact there is a mosque four blocks from ground zero.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to taniatv)
Profile   Post #: 302
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 10:23:50 PM   
Hanscuff18


Posts: 22
Status: offline
Far too few people mention freedom from religion.

I also wonder what the native americans think about Mt Rushmore in their Black Hills.

Wasn't the USS Maine considered to be an act of terrorism? (rhetorical question...please!!!)

< Message edited by Hanscuff18 -- 8/16/2010 10:24:55 PM >

(in reply to taniatv)
Profile   Post #: 303
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 10:30:56 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

four blocks


Five blocks

And they have been using this site for years and no one complained about it

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 304
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 10:34:11 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men.

In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation.

These events fit the pattern of the late nineteenth century, a time of nearly constant conflict between the American government and Plains Indians. At his second presidential inauguration in 1873, Ulysses S. Grant reflected the attitudes of many whites when he said he favored a humane course to bring Native Americans "under the benign influences of education and civilization. It is either this or war of extermination." Many of the land's original occupants did not choose to assimilate; for them war, was the only option.

In 1927, with a history of turmoil as a background, a white man living in Connecticut came into the Black Hills and dynamited and drilled the faces of four white men onto Mount Rushmore. At the outset of the project, Gutzon Borglum had persuaded South Dakota state historian Doane Robinson the presidents would give the work national significance, rejecting Robinson's initial suggestion that the sculpture honor the West's greatest heroes, both Native Americans and pioneers.

The insult of Rushmore to some Sioux is at least three-fold:

1. It was built on land the government took from them.
2. The Black Hills in particular are considered sacred ground.
3. The monument celebrates the European settlers who killed so many Native Americans and appropriated their land.

To counter the white faces of Rushmore, in 1939 Sioux Chief Henry Standing Bear invited sculptor Korczak Ziolkowski, who worked briefly at Rushmore, to carve a memorial to the Sioux nation in the Black Hills. Perhaps wary of Borglum's troubles with financial administrators, Ziolkowski personally bought a mountain top with a granite ridge and financed the entire project privately. The statue, envisioned as a freestanding sculpture of the great Sioux chief Crazy Horse, will be much larger than any of the Rushmore figures. Korczak Ziolkowski died in 1982, but his family continues to work on this awesome undertaking; Crazy Horse's face was completed and dedicated in 1998. Although the subject of this work addresses one aspect of Rushmore's offenses, the land is still considered Sioux property, and the mountain that the Ziolkowskis are carving is still sacred. The Crazy Horse monument is not without its own dissenters and critics.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/rushmore/peopleevents/p_sioux.html

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hanscuff18)
Profile   Post #: 305
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 11:08:44 PM   
pogo4pres


Posts: 593
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is easy to say that you are for rights, it is really hard to actually put that into practice... which is why the Founders put it in the constitution. It isn't up for debate.



Ya know what Julia...

You are a very lucky woman that the overwhemling majority of lawmakers in the United States are Christian, even lip service Christans and Jews.

If ever that changed to Islam, most of the people defending Muslim's rights on this thread would be stoned to death and/or imprisoned.
 


FDD it isn't that it is Islam in those nations, it is because they are fucking THEOCRACIES. 
Theocracy defined as:  a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler, or in a higher sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. 
For believers, theocracy is a form of government in which divine power governs an earthly human state, either in a personal incarnation or, more often, via religious institutional representatives (i.e., a church), replacing or dominating civil government.   As long as this nation remains a "democratic-republic" or "constitutional republic", there should be no fear of Islam.

Again the 1st amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Kind of rules out our becoming a theocratic nation, in the first place dude.




Democratically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ





Edited for clarity


< Message edited by pogo4pres -- 8/16/2010 11:09:59 PM >


_____________________________

"All life is pain highness, anyone that says different is just trying to sell something" The Man in Black (Dread Pirate Roberts)

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 11:24:19 PM   
taniatv


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

four blocks


Five blocks



Six blocks

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 11:28:30 PM   
pogo4pres


Posts: 593
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: taniatv

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

four blocks


Five blocks



Six blocks



16 Blocks Starring:   Bruce Willis, Mos Def, David Morse.



Theatrically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


_____________________________

"All life is pain highness, anyone that says different is just trying to sell something" The Man in Black (Dread Pirate Roberts)

(in reply to taniatv)
Profile   Post #: 308
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/16/2010 11:30:41 PM   
taniatv


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

quote:

ORIGINAL: taniatv

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

four blocks


Five blocks



Six blocks



16 Blocks Starring:   Bruce Willis, Mos Def, David Morse.



Theatrically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ





(in reply to pogo4pres)
Profile   Post #: 309
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 12:50:25 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

It is easy to say that you are for rights, it is really hard to actually put that into practice... which is why the Founders put it in the constitution. It isn't up for debate.



Ya know what Julia...

You are a very lucky woman that the overwhemling majority of lawmakers in the United States are Christian, even lip service Christans and Jews.

If ever that changed to Islam, most of the people defending Muslim's rights on this thread would be stoned to death and/or imprisoned.


I missed this

I do not think Freedom of Religion is negotiable. I feel lucky to live in a country that allows this. If I had my way our law makers wouldn't be religious at all, but they do get the freedom to choose, just like I do... isn't this country wonderful for that reason?

BTW, I do not know if you are aware, but in Indonesia women aren't stoned to death, nor are they forced to wear modesty garments... but don't let little things like facts stand in the way of your bigotry

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 310
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 3:39:10 AM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline
Sure it is... if the States passed an amendment to to the Constitution, they have the ability to change any parts of the US Constitution they wish.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 4:03:06 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
This is not a first amendment issue, no one is saying they can't build their Mosque/Cultural Center, they're asking the Imam to please respect the tragedy of the attack, and show a little compassion for the people who lost loved ones on 11 September.

Is that really too much to ask for a bit of compassion from Muslims?

The really funny thing is, the people defending the Mosque, are the same ones who attacked Ann Coulter for her 911 Widows comments way back when. 

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 4:28:26 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men.

In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation.


Unfortunately for the Lakota Sioux there was "gold in them thar hills" and the U.S. Govt had more guns. Sad part of our history. But hey, Tazzy, don't confuse the Mosque-deniers with history.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 4:30:11 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

This is not a first amendment issue, no one is saying they can't build their Mosque/Cultural Center, they're asking the Imam to please respect the tragedy of the attack, and show a little compassion for the people who lost loved ones on 11 September.

Is that really too much to ask for a bit of compassion from Muslims?

The really funny thing is, the people defending the Mosque, are the same ones who attacked Ann Coulter for her 911 Widows comments way back when. 


How funny is it that there are many Muslim families among "the people who lost loved ones on 11 September?"


_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 314
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 4:36:04 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Haha thanks hon <3

Even when I get bored with it I always come back. It's this weird blend of sadism and masochism I have.


Perhaps there is just a tiny seed of emotional sadist in me? I would never have thought it...but... hmmmmm... perhaps....


OMG! I thought that was evident.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 315
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 4:39:32 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men.

In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation.


Unfortunately for the Lakota Sioux there was "gold in them thar hills" and the U.S. Govt had more guns. Sad part of our history. But hey, Tazzy, don't confuse the Mosque-deniers with history.


vincent, what the hell are you on about now???

i have not posted an opinion one way or the other on this issue. Someone asked a question and i supplied an answer to that question. you seem a bit put out over this issue. care to come clean as to why?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 316
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 4:43:17 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
Really, FDD?

Many Christians consider it sacrilege to burn or otherwise destroy a cross. Klan Christians, however, states that it is not destroying the cross, but "lighting" it, as a symbol of the members' faith.[1]

[edit] Scottish origins
In Scotland, the fiery cross, known as the Crann Tara, was used as a declaration of war. The sight of it commanded all clan members to rally to the defense of the area. On other occasions, a small burning cross would be carried from town to town. The most recent known use was in 1745, during the Jacobite Rising[2] and was subsequently described in the novels and poetry of Walter Scott.

Though some members of the Ku Klux Klan were descended from immigrants from Scotland, there is no evidence to suggest that their ancestors brought this tradition with them to America.


And your authority for such a statement is ??????

Here is my source... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_burning

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 4:51:41 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The creation of Mount Rushmore is a story of struggle -- and to some, desecration. The Black Hills are sacred to the Lakota Sioux, the original occupants of the area when white settlers arrived. For some, the four presidents carved in the hill are not without negative symbolism. The Sioux have never had much luck dealing with white men.

In the Treaty of 1868, the U.S. government promised the Sioux territory that included the Black Hills in perpetuity. Perpetuity lasted only until gold was found in the mountains and prospectors migrated there in the 1870s. The federal government then forced the Sioux to relinquish the Black Hills portion of their reservation.


Unfortunately for the Lakota Sioux there was "gold in them thar hills" and the U.S. Govt had more guns. Sad part of our history. But hey, Tazzy, don't confuse the Mosque-deniers with history.


vincent, what the hell are you on about now???

i have not posted an opinion one way or the other on this issue. Someone asked a question and i supplied an answer to that question. you seem a bit put out over this issue. care to come clean as to why?


Ahh, evidently I misunderstood your intent. Sorry, I thought you were giving an historical example of trampling on sacred ground as a "refutiation" of someone's argument for denying the Mosque.

I am put out to see us quarreling over Constitutionally evident matters such as this and birthright citizenship which Pols are demogoging. Seems pretty ugly and sad to me, especially when many Muslims died in the Twin Towers. Our quarreling seems a slander against those victims. And our Pols seem contemptable. Just sayin...

< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/17/2010 4:52:38 AM >


_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 318
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 5:00:48 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
I dont agree with birthright citizenship... but thats not for this thread.

I do believe we have far bigger and better things to discuss than where to build the next mosque. My personal opinion? Ask those directly affected by the event. I have no issue with it being built there. But its not my issue. I can see the benefits of such a place, i can also see the pain some may experience knowing how close its being built.

Its time to let the healing begin.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 319
RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 - 8/17/2010 5:05:27 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The same arguments can be made in favor of embracing Christianity, and yet, what I mostly see is, attacks against it. Like, you know, digging up all the bad shit and posting it as prime examples of how Christians are, while on the other hand, puppet Z is saying embrace me because I am not that. Ignore the heads rolling and the car bombs. It is only the arse end of me that enjoys such.

I'm laughing, because it is absurd.

Edited to define the it in the statement above. It is absurd to defend religious freedom by attacking another. End of story.


How have I attacked Christianity?


I'm just reading your lists of intolerant assholes







This is not the first time you have accused me of having positions I do not hold, and when asked to produce examples of where I have stated these positions, you post some non sequitor sort of nonsense because you can't...

What "list" of assholes are you speaking of? The list of American Muslims that died in the attack on the World Trade Center? What did they do wrong to be called names by you?

Edited to say, perhaps you mean the list of places where there were "intolerant assholes" protesting places of religious worship...

You are the one that made the point that republicans were going to make out politically over the mosque controversy... my point is that it could fly the opposite way, that this could be painted as right wing intolerance towards Muslims...

I do not see these protesters as representing "Christianity"... I see them as representing extremists. This is basically the point, there are extremists in any religion...


And this is not the first time you side step the fucking issue. Read your own list of intolerant assholes, which is notably missing the intolerant assholes who send authors and painters into hiding, the intolerant assholes who riot across the globe slinging threats of violence and war when someone doesn't treat their book the way they want it treated, the intolerant assholes who last week murdered everyone but a muslim in an attack on health care givers.

If you can't read your own lists, and understand this issue is bigger than you, goes beyond you, and believe that one religion is not attacked to support another, you're worse than an idiot. Hell, just go to the end of the thread and read vincents treatise. He;s all about cross burning now. Imagine the fucking eye roll.

I'm quite alright with him burning a cross on his lawn and willing to bet it is the police who show up rather than a village full of baptists with pitchforks.




_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 320
Page:   <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Obama Makes Clear His Support for Mosque in near 9/11 Page: <<   < prev  14 15 [16] 17 18   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109