Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (Full Version)

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Hippiekinkster -> Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 9:41:56 PM)

Anyone who reads this forum with any regularity knows that there are some who will hold onto an erroneous belif even though the facts clearly show that their belief is wrong.

This is an interesting phenomenon, and a poster on another forum provided a couple of links to articles and research about this phenomenon.

The first, from NPR, was in interview format, which I excerpt:
"Mr. NYHAN: Well, the problem is, you know, as human beings, we want to believe, you know, the things that we already believe. And so when you hear some information that contradicts your pre-existing views, unfortunately, what we tend to do is think of why we believed those things in the first place.

And, you know, so when, you know, we get these corrections, we tend to say I'm right, and I'm going to stick with my view. And the thing that my research, which is with Jason Reifler at Georgia State University, found is that in some cases, that corrective information can actually make the problem worse.

So some people who read Dana's article about immigration may actually have come away from it more strongly committed to the belief that crime has gone up along the border.

CONAN: And indeed are probably demanding his birth certificate.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. NYHAN: That's right.

CONAN: This is a phenomenon described as backfire. You say it's a natural defense mechanism to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Mr. NYHAN: That's right. You know, it's hard, it's threatening to us to admit that things we believe are wrong. And all of us, liberals and conservatives, you know, have some beliefs that aren't true, and when we find that out, you know, it's threatening to our beliefs and ourselves.

And so what we think happens is that the way people, you know, try to resolve this in some cases is to, you know, buttress that belief that they initially held, and, you know, there's a long line of research showing results like this.

CONAN: And again, we'd like to think of our brain as something that's been trained in, you know, Cartesian logic, when in fact, our brain is sort of hard-wired to leap to conclusions very quickly.

Mr. NYHAN: That's right. And what's interesting is in some of these cases, it's the people who are most sophisticated who are best able to defend their beliefs and keep coming up with more elaborate reasons why 9/11 was really a conspiracy or how the weapons of mass destruction were actually smuggled to Syria or whatever the case may be.

So this isn't a question of education, necessarily, or sophistication. It's really about, it's really about preserving that belief that we initially held.

CONAN: And you define sophistication, as I read your piece, you define it as somebody who is right a lot of the time, but the 10 percent of the time they're wrong, boy, they stick to being wrong.

Mr. NYHAN: That's right. That's right. And, you know, I should note that this isn't just a matter of how you interpret information. It's the information you seek out in the first place. "
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128490874

The second is from Psychology Today, which I also excerpt:
"Most people are surprised to learn that there are real, stable differences in personality between conservatives and liberals—not just different views or values, but underlying differences in temperament. Psychologists John Jost of New York University, Dana Carney of Harvard, and Sam Gosling of the University of Texas have demonstrated that conservatives and liberals boast markedly different home and office decor. Liberals are messier than conservatives, their rooms have more clutter and more color, and they tend to have more travel documents, maps of other countries, and flags from around the world. Conservatives are neater, and their rooms are cleaner, better organized, more brightly lit, and more conventional. Liberals have more books, and their books cover a greater variety of topics. And that's just a start. Multiple studies find that liberals are more optimistic. Conservatives are more likely to be religious. Liberals are more likely to like classical music and jazz, conservatives, country music. Liberals are more likely to enjoy abstract art. Conservative men are more likely than liberal men to prefer conventional forms of entertainment like TV and talk radio. Liberal men like romantic comedies more than conservative men. Liberal women are more likely than conservative women to enjoy books, poetry, writing in a diary, acting, and playing musical instruments." (I have a LOT of maps, lots of books, and can't abide C&W - HK)

AND:
"Twenty years later, they decided to compare the subjects' childhood personalities with their political preferences as adults. They found arresting patterns. As kids, liberals had developed close relationships with peers and were rated by their teachers as self-reliant, energetic, impulsive, and resilient. People who were conservative at age 23 had been described by their teachers as easily victimized, easily offended, indecisive, fearful, rigid, inhibited, and vulnerable at age 3. The reason for the difference, the Blocks hypothesized, was that insecure kids most needed the reassurance of tradition and authority, and they found it in conservative politics.

The most comprehensive review of personality and political orientation to date is a 2003 meta-analysis of 88 prior studies involving 22,000 participants. The researchers—John Jost of NYU, Arie Kruglanski of the University of Maryland, and Jack Glaser and Frank Sulloway of Berkeley—found that conservatives have a greater desire to reach a decision quickly and stick to it, and are higher on conscientiousness, which includes neatness, orderliness, duty, and rule-following. Liberals are higher on openness, which includes intellectual curiosity, excitement-seeking, novelty, creativity for its own sake, and a craving for stimulation like travel, color, art, music, and literature."
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200612/the-ideological-animal

Ain't no doubt that I'm a Progressive.

I have observed that Cons do tend to be more fearful about things, and more inclined to "stick to their guns" even when shown to be completely wrong. I, myself, have changed my position many times due to the acquisition of new information.

And I find myself wondering if there is any way to convince (perhaps the wrong word here) people to change their positions when new data becomes available? That is, get them to be open to change?




popeye1250 -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 9:57:37 PM)

Liberal men like romantic comedies? I'm not touching that one.
"Cognitive dissonance" they were saying that about the Clintons way back when.
And what's a "progressive?" Is that between "liberal" and "conservative?"




zenny -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 10:14:27 PM)

You're looking for Rogerian arguments. Well, they're a way to open another up anyways. Ware another psychological condition known as confirmation bias... amongst others.

Also, don't be one to confuse a trend as something to base opinions off of. Especially when the research is being paraphrased for the consumer.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 10:21:05 PM)

quote:

People who were conservative at age 23 had been described by their teachers as easily victimized, easily offended, indecisive, fearful, rigid, inhibited, and vulnerable at age 3.


I ain't naming no names here, but.... [8D]




juliaoceania -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 10:36:30 PM)

Anyone can suffer from cognitive dissonance, by its very nature no one can truly claim they do not....

Although I will say, people who try to keep an open mind and embrace new ideas tend to have it less than other people do




DCWoody -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 10:46:25 PM)

Progressive (wanting to move on, constantly improve, change things, etc) is the opposite of conservative (respect traditions, don't mess with things that work ya might break them, etc).

Liberalism (do what ya like within reason) opposes authoritarianism (do what I/god say).

None of the 4 are necessarily tied to either left or right wing, but authoritarianism usually mixes with conservatism because tradition overlaps hugely with religion....and conservative generally = lower taxes, so right wing....because everyone likes to think there were less taxes back in the day....which is true if you go back far enough. The USSR vs US thing that was going also helped this.

However, there are multiple examples of both left & right being both authoritarian & liberal, progressive & conservative....if you really have to use such broad labels, IMO it's a mistake to talk as if progressive always= left wing.....and it's definitely wrong to conflate liberal & left.




rulemylife -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 10:49:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Liberal men like romantic comedies? I'm not touching that one.
"Cognitive dissonance" they were saying that about the Clintons way back when.
And what's a "progressive?" Is that between "liberal" and "conservative?"


No Popeye, you're between liberal and conservative.

At least that's what you keep telling us.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 10:49:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Progressive (wanting to move on, constantly improve, change things, etc) is the opposite of conservative (respect traditions, don't mess with things that work ya might break them, etc).

Liberalism (do what ya like within reason) opposes authoritarianism (do what I/god say).

None of the 4 are necessarily tied to either left or right wing, but authoritarianism usually mixes with conservatism because tradition overlaps hugely with religion....and conservative generally = lower taxes, so right wing....because everyone likes to think there were less taxes back in the day....which is true if you go back far enough. The USSR vs US thing that was going also helped this.

However, there are multiple examples of both left & right being both authoritarian & liberal, progressive & conservative....if you really have to use such broad labels, IMO it's a mistake to talk as if progressive always= left wing.....and it's definitely wrong to conflate liberal & left.

You completely missed my point.




DCWoody -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 10:59:22 PM)

Erm, I was just talking to Popeye. With my views on religion, I'm well up on denial and delusion....OP wasn't really interesting to me at all....not because it's a boring subject, just...I've done it to death years ago :)




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 11:16:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zenny

You're looking for Rogerian arguments. Well, they're a way to open another up anyways. Ware another psychological condition known as confirmation bias... amongst others.

Also, don't be one to confuse a trend as something to base opinions off of. Especially when the research is being paraphrased for the consumer.

Rogerian argumentation without any Appeals to Emotion, or Appeals to (unqualified) Authority, perhaps.

Case in point: WMDs in Iraq. It has been conclusively proven that there were no WMDs in Iraq at the time of the invasion. To avoid cognitive dissonance between that fact and their beliefs that there were, some who supported that rationale for the invasion came up with the theory that they were all transported to Syria. They even found some guy in Iraq who supposedly was on a plane (IIRC) that was ferrying WMDs to Syria. He has since been discredited, but those cons who supported the WMD rationale simply can not accept the facts. They contimue to insist that they exist(ed).

I do not seek to find some middle ground, as is generally the goal in a Rogerian argument. The facts are the facts, and my goal is to get the True Believer to accept that his belief is wrong. Period. Carl Rogers' method of structuring the argument is most useful, however.

Confirmation bias is certainly a factor in why people arrive at certain positions, but knowing that people select evidence which favors a predisposition towards a belief doesn't help me to get them to accept contrary evidence.




sravaka -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 11:22:59 PM)

I've seen reports about this kind of research (conservative vs. liberal temperaments) before... but am a bit more *struck*, and laughing, at some of the "truths" as a result of having gotten to know a conservative-domly sort here recently (check that out! introduction of near D/s content in P&R!! what happens if you cross a conservative and a liberal in D/s terms??)

The thing is? Maybe this does not need to be said, but I will say it anyway: temperament comes first, politics (and taste, messiness, what you will) comes later. No?

What I wonder, reading this... is less about what I think the OP's point is? than: why on earth is it, that in a capitalist society, that supposedly needs innovation, creativity, quick thinking, all of that..... why is it that entrenched-ness and orderliness and fear are privileged?? Why are the goofy messy random people marginal-by-definition, when they hold the key to advancement??

I'd say "sorry to hijack," but I doubt it will amount to a hijack in the end.





Kirata -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/20/2010 11:34:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

People who were conservative at age 23 had been described by their teachers as easily victimized, easily offended, indecisive, fearful, rigid, inhibited, and vulnerable at age 3. The reason for the difference, the Blocks hypothesized, was that insecure kids most needed the reassurance of tradition and authority

Decision-making style ranges along a continuum from thoughtful to impulsive. "Indecisive" isn't a description, it's a judgment. The same can be said for "easily victimized" (instead of trusting) and so on. This is the sort of thing that ought to make a reader blink and suspect experimenter bias. And in this case, there wasn't even an experiment. The data are second-hand opinions, with no controls. Too, I found myself wondering where one finds teachers with classrooms full of three-year olds. Daycare? Enter selection bias. In short, crapola.

I'm not trying to dispute your point that there are differences, however. The Jost, Kruglanski, Glaser, and Sulloway study looks good, and in my opinion their findings illustrate the value of having a balance of liberal and conservative qualities in both our society and our government.

K.




popeye1250 -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 12:18:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Liberal men like romantic comedies? I'm not touching that one.
"Cognitive dissonance" they were saying that about the Clintons way back when.
And what's a "progressive?" Is that between "liberal" and "conservative?"


No Popeye, you're between liberal and conservative.

At least that's what you keep telling us.




Rule, wrong again as usual. I'm not "between" liberal and conservative. You must be very easy to beat at chess. Or poker. Or...
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant but that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan -




luckydawg -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 12:31:56 AM)

quote:

Case in point: WMDs in Iraq. It has been conclusively proven that there were no WMDs in Iraq at the time of the invasion. To avoid cognitive dissonance between that fact and their beliefs that there were, some who supported that rationale for the invasion came up with the theory that they were all transported to Syria. They even found some guy in Iraq who supposedly was on a plane (IIRC) that was ferrying WMDs to Syria. He has since been discredited, but those cons who supported the WMD rationale simply can not accept the facts. They contimue to insist that they exist(ed).



Case in point, the rationale for the war was written in a resolution, adn sent o and approved by Congress (majorities of both parties). The resolution did not say Iraq has WMD. It said Saddam had consitently prevented the inspectors to do thier jobs, and had refused to comply with the relevant UN and Ceasefire resolutions. Yet "Progressives" continue to pretend the Actuall resolution doesn.t matter, and rely on the Spin from the daily show as the "rationale" for the war.

And no matter how many times you show them the actuall resolution and list of those who supported it, will they acknowledge it.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 2:18:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

People who were conservative at age 23 had been described by their teachers as easily victimized, easily offended, indecisive, fearful, rigid, inhibited, and vulnerable at age 3. The reason for the difference, the Blocks hypothesized, was that insecure kids most needed the reassurance of tradition and authority

Decision-making style ranges along a continuum from thoughtful to impulsive. "Indecisive" isn't a description, it's a judgment. The same can be said for "easily victimized" (instead of trusting) and so on. This is the sort of thing that ought to make a reader blink and suspect experimenter bias. And in this case, there wasn't even an experiment. The data are second-hand opinions, with no controls. Too, I found myself wondering where one finds teachers with classrooms full of three-year olds. Daycare? Enter selection bias. In short, crapola.

I'm not trying to dispute your point that there are differences, however. The Jost, Kruglanski, Glaser, and Sulloway study looks good, and in my opinion their findings illustrate the value of having a balance of liberal and conservative qualities in both our society and our government.

K.

I think you are making some valid points. I also wondered about the 3-year-old thing. I have to agree with you that, as there is not a control group, and that the classification of the 3YOs was entirely up to the teachers' subjective assessments, there are flaws in the study. Nevertheless, I think that the results are useful, IMO (and perhaps I'm exhibiting confirmation bias?).

Indecisiveness can be a descriptor. Consider a 3 YO being presented with a choice of ice cream, or fudge brownies. If the toddler doesn't have a predisposition towards either, it might be very difficult to make the choice; hence, indecisiveness. Objective, and not a value judgment; once again, IMO.

I'm intellectually cognizant of the desireability of having opposing views represented in the Govt. I'm an Idealist, however, and I have a certain vision of how I would like society to function. I therefore am very strongly Progressive/"Liberal"




Hippiekinkster -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 2:22:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

Case in point: WMDs in Iraq. It has been conclusively proven that there were no WMDs in Iraq at the time of the invasion. To avoid cognitive dissonance between that fact and their beliefs that there were, some who supported that rationale for the invasion came up with the theory that they were all transported to Syria. They even found some guy in Iraq who supposedly was on a plane (IIRC) that was ferrying WMDs to Syria. He has since been discredited, but those cons who supported the WMD rationale simply can not accept the facts. They contimue to insist that they exist(ed).



Case in point, the rationale for the war was written in a resolution, adn sent o and approved by Congress (majorities of both parties). The resolution did not say Iraq has WMD. It said Saddam had consitently prevented the inspectors to do thier jobs, and had refused to comply with the relevant UN and Ceasefire resolutions. Yet "Progressives" continue to pretend the Actuall resolution doesn.t matter, and rely on the Spin from the daily show as the "rationale" for the war.

And no matter how many times you show them the actuall resolution and list of those who supported it, will they acknowledge it.
The fact that the Resolution Authorizing the Use of Force didn't mention WMDs is irrelevant. Many Neocons used the "existence" of WMDs as a pretext for invasion. It is to that phenomenon which I obviously speak.

Your Red Herring doesn't swim.




StrangerThan -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 7:00:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

Case in point: WMDs in Iraq. It has been conclusively proven that there were no WMDs in Iraq at the time of the invasion. To avoid cognitive dissonance between that fact and their beliefs that there were, some who supported that rationale for the invasion came up with the theory that they were all transported to Syria. They even found some guy in Iraq who supposedly was on a plane (IIRC) that was ferrying WMDs to Syria. He has since been discredited, but those cons who supported the WMD rationale simply can not accept the facts. They contimue to insist that they exist(ed).



Case in point, the rationale for the war was written in a resolution, adn sent o and approved by Congress (majorities of both parties). The resolution did not say Iraq has WMD. It said Saddam had consitently prevented the inspectors to do thier jobs, and had refused to comply with the relevant UN and Ceasefire resolutions. Yet "Progressives" continue to pretend the Actuall resolution doesn.t matter, and rely on the Spin from the daily show as the "rationale" for the war.

And no matter how many times you show them the actuall resolution and list of those who supported it, will they acknowledge it.
The fact that the Resolution Authorizing the Use of Force didn't mention WMDs is irrelevant. Many Neocons used the "existence" of WMDs as a pretext for invasion. It is to that phenomenon which I obviously speak.

Your Red Herring doesn't swim.



If you read the UN charter, you'll understand why WMD's were used as a pretext. The rules of engagement are fairly clear, All of which can be thwarted by lying about why you're doing it in the first place.

As for dissonance, you can find shit loads of it on the muslim threads hanging out on the boards right now. Somewhere next to head lopping, spine cutting, and stoning, you'll find a mountain of emotional arguments about compassion and peace that flee all the way back to the land before time in order to escape the current state of the religion.

The bottom line is the two-word phrase you so eloquently describe is known as bullshit in simple terms, and it exists anywhere people ache to defend their side of the political spectrum. I find it somewhat easier to talk to conservatives honestly because their dissonance is often couched in common sense terms. To spell that out slowly, it means you can often leave them with a thought and they will eventually see reason if it does indeed exist in your argument. Liberals however, will twist themselves into frothing, sweaty knots in order to cling to whatever flavor of bs they happen to be lapping from the trough.







DomKen -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 8:11:06 AM)

It's a lot more than one issue and its not anywhere near true that all liberals or progressives are reality based and all cons are not.

Facts not in dispute by appropriate experts but still disputed by certain subsets of the population
Anthrogenic Global Warming
Homeopathic medicine is water
Theory of Evolution
"Psychics" who talk to the dead are using the old carnival trick called cold reading
The Stimulus plan didn't create or save any jobs
Pacifism as a national policy would work
etc.




juliaoceania -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 8:25:24 AM)

quote:

Homeopathic medicine is water


Oh really? I do not think this is true, I think it is sometimes true, but not all of the time...

quote:

"Psychics" who talk to the dead are using the old carnival trick called cold reading


Again, some of the time, but that does not mean this is true all of the time

quote:

Pacifism as a national policy would work



This, again, works some of the time....



I think you suffer from cognitive dissonance yourself because some of your statements are not always true all of the time, yet you are unwilling to accept when they are not so you make infinitive statements...








willbeurdaddy -> RE: Cognitive Dissonance and the avoidance of Facts (8/21/2010 8:44:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It's a lot more than one issue and its not anywhere near true that all liberals or progressives are reality based and all cons are not.

Facts not in dispute by appropriate experts but still disputed by certain subsets of the population
Anthrogenic Global Warming very much in dispute. you confirm the OP by choosing who you feel are "appropriate experts" ie those proven to be liars.
Homeopathic medicine is water the placebo effect is real and can be more powerful than accepted medicine. Much of homepoathy relies on it
Theory of Evolution
"Psychics" who talk to the dead are using the old carnival trick called cold reading
The Stimulus plan didn't create or save any jobs strawman
Pacifism as a national policy would work
etc.




50/50 better than your average.




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