RE: Does submission = slave (Full Version)

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LadyMorgynn -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 6:46:53 PM)

True.  However, if someone were posting that only an owned sub/slave was a True sub/slave, I very likely would have done so, because that is stupid, IMO.  Since that is what KC thought the poster said, I can forgive him calling it stupid.

Maybe, having cleared all this misunderstanding up, we can all move on and get back to the OP :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
At least you didn't call the post "stupid" though.
Level



Mercnbeth -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 6:53:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: quietWonder

...i clearly define myself as submissive as i have a very submissive personality with the right Other.  But it is not wavering on the ideas in my mind of what a slave is...... clearly in my own mind there is definition...



disclaimer:  we can debate definitions, word origins, legal validity of ownership, nature vs. nurture, etc. 'til the cows come home.  more important than any CM community consensus is the understanding you have of yourself and what you are willing to offer.
 
that being said, yes, to this slave there is a distinct difference between submissive and slave. 
 
*one has 5 more letters than the other.

**one is an adjective, one is a noun.

***there is no historically abhorrant version of a "submissive", unless you are talking to a feminist about religion-based domestic discipline.

****entering into a relationship with a submissive individual is not challenging the law, owning another human being is.

and, just for fun, how about the similarities?

BOTH words can define a particular role within a relationship which might be to either of the following extremes or somewhere in between for any number of reasons:
mono or poly
celibate or sex-crazed
deeply fulfilling on multiple levels or satisfying an occasional urge in a fixed period of time
filled with love or filled with hateful emotion
purpose-driven or random circumstancial occurrance
highly controlled(some like to say micro-managed) or minimally controlled by the "Dom" or "Master"
real-time or cyber only

ultimately, it is deeply subjective, like the words "beauty" and "art". will you ascribe to someone else's definition of either one of those words or do you know what is beautiful TO YOU or what YOU appreciate as artistic? the definition of any number of published authors or self-proclaimed experts, from Webster's to Dr. Ruth will help with a basic definition, as THEY see it or as THEY believe it is widely-accepted, however, nothing beats real time experience!
 
this slave's definitions of both words is the same now as it was when she discovered their relevance to D/s relationships. something that has helped this slave to reinforce the differences as she sees them and as Master sees them has been to have conversations with real live flesh and blood folks who label themselves "submissive" or "slave" and see what it means to them. sometimes actions speak louder than words.
 
this slave has found that the definition that matters most is the one we have to define for ourselves by deciding what it means to US, what it means to any potential or existing partner within the potential or existing relationship...in other words, it matters not what this slave perceives the difference to be for it to be defined by others and have it totally work for them.

and in case you are curious as to this slave's opinion on tweaking the definitions even further try this link:

The End of Slavery

[:)]



quietWonder -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 7:04:39 PM)

thank you for the meaningful feelback , it is much appreciated and i am certain something that gets asked alot by us new ones entering these communities with a ton of questions, reservations, positives and negatives and the whole kit and ka boodle.  So at that i sincerely thank everyone for input.  i don't know about anyone else, but it certainly allows me to define that which i need definition for (i am just one of those peeps that needs that and hence to each his/her own) :)

i hope you each understand, that i feel i have made a fairly solid analysis of myself , but i can not feel but  overwhelmed with the amount of B.S. that is spoken to me and demanded of me where i thought i have made it more than clear at what i believe i am capable of dealing with in all honesty.  i am also well aware that there is the dynamic of pushing boundries, etc., those things i do not dispute.  i do dispute being told i will be something i know i am incapable of being though, and i can not even venture to believe i am 'slave' material cause i just am not.

quietWonder



LadyMorgynn -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 7:10:24 PM)

People go on and on about labels being meaningless and all, but at least they give us a starting point of reference to go on :)
Basically, just read everyone's opinions, and think it all over, and then decide for yourself what definitions feel right to you, and choose what works for you to call yourself. 

Then prepare to defend that choice to every other person who comes along <laugh>


quote:

ORIGINAL: quietWonder

thank you for the meaningful feelback , it is much appreciated and i am certain something that gets asked alot by us new ones entering these communities with a ton of questions, reservations, positives and negatives and the whole kit and ka boodle.  So at that i sincerely thank everyone for input.  i don't know about anyone else, but it certainly allows me to define that which i need definition for (i am just one of those peeps that needs that and hence to each his/her own) :)



quietWonder -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 7:16:35 PM)

LadyMorgynn, Thank you, you are most charming.

sincerely, quietWonder



ImpGrrl -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 7:32:49 PM)

I'm an in 100% agreement here.

*Generally* speaking, there is no difference in the meaning of "submissive" and "slave".  However, there is usually a difference between the two within individual relationships.

There's no universal - as beth said, it's like "beauty" or "art".


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: quietWonder

...i clearly define myself as submissive as i have a very submissive personality with the right Other.  But it is not wavering on the ideas in my mind of what a slave is...... clearly in my own mind there is definition...



disclaimer:  we can debate definitions, word origins, legal validity of ownership, nature vs. nurture, etc. 'til the cows come home.  more important than any CM community consensus is the understanding you have of yourself and what you are willing to offer.
 
that being said, yes, to this slave there is a distinct difference between submissive and slave. 
 
*one has 5 more letters than the other.

**one is an adjective, one is a noun.

***there is no historically abhorrant version of a "submissive", unless you are talking to a feminist about religion-based domestic discipline.

****entering into a relationship with a submissive individual is not challenging the law, owning another human being is.

and, just for fun, how about the similarities?

BOTH words can define a particular role within a relationship which might be to either of the following extremes or somewhere in between for any number of reasons:
mono or poly
celibate or sex-crazed
deeply fulfilling on multiple levels or satisfying an occasional urge in a fixed period of time
filled with love or filled with hateful emotion
purpose-driven or random circumstancial occurrance
highly controlled(some like to say micro-managed) or minimally controlled by the "Dom" or "Master"
real-time or cyber only

ultimately, it is deeply subjective, like the words "beauty" and "art". will you ascribe to someone else's definition of either one of those words or do you know what is beautiful TO YOU or what YOU appreciate as artistic? the definition of any number of published authors or self-proclaimed experts, from Webster's to Dr. Ruth will help with a basic definition, as THEY see it or as THEY believe it is widely-accepted, however, nothing beats real time experience!
 
this slave's definitions of both words is the same now as it was when she discovered their relevance to D/s relationships. something that has helped this slave to reinforce the differences as she sees them and as Master sees them has been to have conversations with real live flesh and blood folks who label themselves "submissive" or "slave" and see what it means to them. sometimes actions speak louder than words.
 
this slave has found that the definition that matters most is the one we have to define for ourselves by deciding what it means to US, what it means to any potential or existing partner within the potential or existing relationship...in other words, it matters not what this slave perceives the difference to be for it to be defined by others and have it totally work for them.

and in case you are curious as to this slave's opinion on tweaking the definitions even further try this link:

The End of Slavery

[:)]




sephisurrender3d -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 8:45:39 PM)

I cant say im any one thing.. Ive been a sub, a slave and a Domme so i see from different perspective at times...Im at a cross roads in my life that i can not say im strictly a sub or a slave .. I am me, im unique, with many qualities from sub/slave to Domme..
Labels are for foods,items we buy ... So keep the labels i dont want them cause hell labels make me question who i am and what im doing and damn i do that enough....See me the person not the label someone seems to think i need...i am me a spirited, passionate, caring woman who loves her Master, her children, Family and Friends....
 
Maybe today im being stubborn digging my heels in for something i belleive in.. Tomarrow i may be snuggly and cuddly wanting only to be held and loved..and then the day after i may well be in a silly mood, an angry mood,or a i need to be alone mood..So please keep the labels im confused enough ... See me not what you think i am, but me truely and deeply who i am...
 
sephi



truesub4u -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 9:02:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

At least you didn't call the post "stupid" though.
 
Level


Well damn... thank you Level... it is nice to see though i've gotten a promotion.... because now when someone doesn't understand me... i'm no longer ignorant... just stupid... LOL...or is that a demotion?... being stupid.. I really don't know... [;)]



WickedTruth -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 9:31:15 PM)

quote:



is it possible to clearly make a definition between a submissive and a slave.  Regardless of Oxfords or other dictionaries, is there clearly a defining mark and/or line between the two.



In a word, yes & no. :)

However, someone pointed out on another thread that English just doesn't do justice to BDSM, so I've decided it's time to invent some new terms. Now, these new terms are not meant to replace existing terms, they are just a supplement to what's already out there. Feel free to continue to use existing labels at your own discretion and risk. ;)
 
Slubbie - shortened term for slubmissive
 
Cyber slubbie - a slubbie who serves a Domlie via webcams & Internet chat rooms - wears a Velcro collar, signs week long contracts to prove their dedication
 
slubmissive - a slut who is subservient to another for sexual gratification only
 
Dimly - a person who wants a cyber slubbie but can't get one.
 
Domlie - married person who withholds information from their partner so they can own a cyber slubbie
 
SlutdomMay - a slut in charge of others for the soul purpose of sexual gratification, gender female
 
Slutdom - a slut in charge of others for the soul purpose of sexual gratification, gender male
 
Master Slut - a slut in charge of others for the dual purposes of sexual gratification and TIP
 
TIP - Total Immersion in Perversion  - a lifestyle in which the participants actively embrace perversion 24 hours a day with a live-in partner
 
PIP - Partial Immersion in Perversion  - a lifestyle in which the participants actively embrace perversion when their spouse goes to bed

Please keep in mind that these definitions are written in stone. They are what they are and they are not to be fold, spindled or mutilated. We have to start somewhere.. so this is where I've chosen to start. I'll be adding to these as the need arises. Feel free to slap these labels on your own ass or the asses of your friends or just plain asses.

Celeste
 
 



truesub4u -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 9:42:57 PM)

lol.... slubbie... not just a subbie.. but a slubbie... I think I kinda like that... LOL.. thanks



adaddysgirl -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 10:34:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

a submissive defines submission to a Dominant by the moment, day, experience, emotion and controls the submission. In other words they control the exchange of TPE.
a slave submits onetime at the beginning forever completely as a possession to the Dominant who controls the TPE. JMO


Personally, i think this is a crock.  i do not agree that a submissive controls things 'by the day, experience, etc'.  Rather, i think a submissive has limits (or parameters) which she clearly adheres to.  But beside that, i can only describe my own experiences.
 
The very first 2 'doms' i was involved with called themselves Masters.  Being new to 'the lifestyle', i automatically assumed i was  a slave.
 
In research, i joined a group which considered slaves as property.  All of them were poly, or interested in more than one female partner, so they were really only looking for bi subs.  Both doms and subs scoffed at me because they were convinced that as property, i could be shared with anyone, male or female and since i was into none of that, i decided i was not a slave. 
 
i then 'formed' limits....i was looking for a MONOGAMOUS partner and i found that really did not go over well in M/s.  So again, i did not consider myself a slave.
 
But then a Master (as so he said and i do believe to this day) said to me.....'Here is the difference between a sub and a slave.  If i go away for a week, a slave will clean my house as she knows is expected.  A sub will clean it the night before because she does not want to face the consequences of not doing so'. 
 
It then became clear to me.  No...i guess i am not into the servitude stuff as perhaps most slaves are.  And no, i have not felt like serving men since birth.  i personally do it because i realize the consequences of not and since i am not a sadist, i do not like them.  But that is exactly what i am looking for in a partner.
 
But i do not define my submission by the day, as suggested above.  Yes, i have limits which i like to discuss right at the beginning of the possible relationship...in the hopes that i will find a partner who has similar conceptions of D/s.  If not, then we are probably not a suitable couple...period.
 
And perhaps as a daddys girl, i have even more set limits than most submissives but i have met doms who understand that i am saying, and that is all that matters.  And i would definitely, with the right partner, call myself a slave to HIM and to him only, should we ever establish that type of intimate relationship.
 
Daddysgirl
 
I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglas  



shivvy -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/22/2006 11:59:42 PM)

i know everybody has different views, but in my personal opinion, submission is a voluntary act to willingly surrender. Being submissive i take orders and carry them out with a willingness to please. i also cross the line into slavery where whether or not i am willing to please, my complience is sure to be derived from force. i think submissive/slave can be separate or in union with one another. Total cooperation or with defiance... Just my opinon



Lashra -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 1:13:18 AM)

Don't let these Doms tell you what you are, you know in your own heart and mind. Don't let them try to force you into one role or the other only you can choose that. That is where the word consensual comes in to play.

~Lashra



IronBear -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 2:27:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

a submissive defines submission to a Dominant by the moment, day, experience, emotion and controls the submission. In other words they control the exchange of TPE.
a slave submits onetime at the beginning forever completely as a possession to the Dominant who controls the TPE. JMO


Personally, i think this is a crock.  i do not agree that a submissive controls things 'by the day, experience, etc'.  Rather, i think a submissive has limits (or parameters) which she clearly adheres to.  But beside that, i can only describe my own experiences.


  Realy??? I know far too many subs who call the shots on a daily basis too.... I seem to remember a similar discussion here some time ago when a goodly number of submissives said that they controlled what was happening, their kink was to be ordered bu a Dom in areas which they (the sub) had set up... It is a social/sexual game for them rather than a lifestyle choice....

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

The very first 2 'doms' i was involved with called themselves Masters.  Being new to 'the lifestyle', i automatically assumed i was  a slave.
 


More fool you then.. To ASSUME is to make an ASS out of yoU and ME... However it is easy to make such an error at the beginning.... However the rest of your post is you addressing what you do which is fine for you, this is not fine for everyone. You do need toi accept that others have a different take and some here speak from a long experience in some specific areas as does DREAD. WE are both Gorean Lifestylers and thus our comments are valid for our lifestyle nothig more or less... No need to be so damned rude is there?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

Don't let these Doms tell you what you are, you know in your own heart and mind. Don't let them try to force you into one role or the other only you can choose that. That is where the word consensual comes in to play.

~Lashra


To start with Lashra, I am not a Dom and have no interest in dealing with submissives.. I am a Goran Master and this is the area in which I prefer to stay. Any submissive who askes to be trained and or collared by any Goran Free is a slave and she best understand that.. NO Limits or safe words.. Nothing but absolute submission is accepable....For us not necessarily for those in other lifestyles.... There is a place for everyone...



ClassAct2006 -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 2:42:07 AM)

I'm more comfortable, for me, with the word submissive bceause the D/S relationships I have had have been with more reciprocity, mutual pleasure and giving than perhaps I find the word slave suggests. I also think you need some elements of equality, mutual respect even if someone else is ultimately to decide things so I just prefer not to use the slave word.



Level -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 4:08:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

At least you didn't call the post "stupid" though.
 
Level


Well damn... thank you Level... it is nice to see though i've gotten a promotion.... because now when someone doesn't understand me... i'm no longer ignorant... just stupid... LOL...or is that a demotion?... being stupid.. I really don't know... [;)]



*smiles*............. hey, I just think if someone disagrees with you, that's fine, but to just say "that's stupid", without any attempt at clarification or debate, to me, that defeats one of the best things about these forums.
 
Level



Level -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 4:09:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedTruth

quote:



is it possible to clearly make a definition between a submissive and a slave.  Regardless of Oxfords or other dictionaries, is there clearly a defining mark and/or line between the two.



In a word, yes & no. :)

However, someone pointed out on another thread that English just doesn't do justice to BDSM, so I've decided it's time to invent some new terms. Now, these new terms are not meant to replace existing terms, they are just a supplement to what's already out there. Feel free to continue to use existing labels at your own discretion and risk. ;)
 
Slubbie - shortened term for slubmissive
 
Cyber slubbie - a slubbie who serves a Domlie via webcams & Internet chat rooms - wears a Velcro collar, signs week long contracts to prove their dedication
 
slubmissive - a slut who is subservient to another for sexual gratification only
 
Dimly - a person who wants a cyber slubbie but can't get one.
 
Domlie - married person who withholds information from their partner so they can own a cyber slubbie
 
SlutdomMay - a slut in charge of others for the soul purpose of sexual gratification, gender female
 
Slutdom - a slut in charge of others for the soul purpose of sexual gratification, gender male
 
Master Slut - a slut in charge of others for the dual purposes of sexual gratification and TIP
 
TIP - Total Immersion in Perversion  - a lifestyle in which the participants actively embrace perversion 24 hours a day with a live-in partner
 
PIP - Partial Immersion in Perversion  - a lifestyle in which the participants actively embrace perversion when their spouse goes to bed

Please keep in mind that these definitions are written in stone. They are what they are and they are not to be fold, spindled or mutilated. We have to start somewhere.. so this is where I've chosen to start. I'll be adding to these as the need arises. Feel free to slap these labels on your own ass or the asses of your friends or just plain asses.

Celeste
 
 


.....................*does a double take*............



feastie -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 4:10:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

when I aquire a slave My expectations of said slave who has become My posession or My Homes posession are CLEARLY DEFINED.
I would not even look at a sub to aquire or any who defines themselfs as sub.
Why? Simple, For the same reasons I would not practice My Sadism on any who were not a masocist.
a submissive defines submission to a Dominant by the moment, day, experiance, emotion and controls the submission. In other words they control the exchange of TPE.
a slave submits onetime at the beginning forever completly as a posession to the Dominant who controls the TPE. JMO


A masochist doesn't have to relate to being either a submissive or slave.  They can merely be a masochist.   



LadyMorgynn -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 6:21:28 AM)

Whoah!  My slave should do as I ask, whether he wants to do it or not, because he wants to please Me.  If I have to force him to do anything, he's not the right slave for me and will be freed immediately!

quote:

ORIGINAL: shivvy
 i also cross the line into slavery where whether or not i am willing to please, my complience is sure to be derived from force.



adaddysgirl -> RE: Does submission = slave (4/23/2006 7:14:44 AM)


[/quote]
Realy??? I know far too many subs who call the shots on a daily basis too.... I seem to remember a similar discussion here some time ago when a goodly number of submissives said that they controlled what was happening, their kink was to be ordered bu a Dom in areas which they (the sub) had set up... It is a social/sexual game for them rather than a lifestyle choice....

Well, i have read threads on the difference between a submissive and a bottom....but i guess that could be whole different thread than this one.


[/quote]

More fool you then.. To ASSUME is to make an ASS out of yoU and ME... However it is easy to make such an error at the beginning.... However the rest of your post is you addressing what you do which is fine for you, this is not fine for everyone. You do need toi accept that others have a different take and some here speak from a long experience in some specific areas as does DREAD. WE are both Gorean Lifestylers and thus our comments are valid for our lifestyle nothig more or less... No need to be so damned rude is there?

The very first dom i met was on a vanilla dating site.  i had never even heard of D/s, BDSM, slave, submissive, Master, dom, etc.  He introduced those terms to me and because he identified as a Master, he naturally qualified me as his slave.  i had no knowledge then of any online groups, forums or sites but after researching this more on my own, i found i was not a slave.  Foolish?  Perhaps......just as many are when starting out in the lifestyle.  i see it every day on here....young females calling themselves slaves when they have never yet submitted to another;  young males who call themselves Masters when they have never even dominated (and even some older males, as a matter of fact).
 
Rude?  That statement almost sounded like a fact, didn't it?  As a matter of fact, i have seen that same statement written somewhere else (perhaps in a profile or a discussion....can't really recall right now)....and i thought it was a crock then too!
 
And if that is merely an opinion, then i have my opinions as well.  And i am not saying anything about the writer...only the passage that was written.
 
Daddysgirl



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