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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:03:39 PM

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When a runaway 16 year old walks up to your trailer, your focus should probably be how to get her to a place where she can be responsible for her own decisions.

Trying to get such a vulnerable person to consent to anything this drastic is... thoughtless at best. There is at least one thing there that is inherently impossible to consent to because it involves another life.

Things like emotional abuse are impossible to prove so they are just going for more tangible things.

Whipthehip: If you were a lawyer you would present your arguments more clearly and concisely.

Additionally, why are you arguing about a general problem with BDSM consent in this thread? Just start a new one and do it there.
You are linking your argument to this case directly, which is like trying to shoot a soda can through your own hand.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 9/18/2010 6:06:38 PM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:07:10 PM

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Good lord whip you are combining many cases all together. I just got done reading the the court document of the charges. She was not eighteen when the slave contract was signed. If that were to matter. We can go in and out discussing this or that and add or subtract whatever and still be talking out our asses! Or until the thread is deleted again.

I read that document and some MO laws and those guys are going to have a hell of a time getting out of that one. There is too much physical evidence that proves something went terribly wrong. If I were you, I sure wouldn't use this case to plead the officials are out of line and puffing up a case.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:09:41 PM

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First and foremost I am concerned about what happened to this young woman when she was a minor. If the crimes as reported were committed on her while she was a minor are valid, then these men deserve their punishment. A prison sentence would seem like a day in the paradise compared to what my vengeful mind would come up with as just punishment for that kind of horrific abuse of a minor. Any minor.

Of course there are varying opinions in this thread. Those opinions should stay in the thread and not in my or anyone elses cmail. You know who you are..so let me address this to you....I think your opinion on this matter sucks and that you are an ass. I also do not care that your posts are being removed as you claim. If you do not like the rules of the folk who run the place...then do not let the knob of the door handle hit you in the ass on the way out of the site.

< Message edited by Mistletoe -- 9/18/2010 6:44:12 PM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:33:44 PM

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If society really cared, they would offer runaways the ability to live in a half-way house, where their urine was monitored for drugs, where they wouldn't need to hook up with a pimp, where they could get vocational training, where surrogate parents actually showed them love, where they could get therapy, and encouragement. Also, society ought to let them work a legitimate job.

Instead, they can't work a legitimate job because they are too young, and they society really does not offer them a decent place to live. Many runaways are just not capable of going to school after having lived on the streets half their life. Thee is an unrealistic expectation that society can keep all these runaways celibate, when many of them have been highly sexually active for God only knows how long.

As a manager of a low rent hotel on Miami Beach, I saw dozens of runaways come and go. They were always escaping from juvenile detention, and from local institutions for runaways. They escaped not because they would not have been happy with a safe place to stay. Instead, juvenile detention centers and local institutions for runaways were filled with physical, emotional and sexual abuse, were impersonal, were highly restrictive, and offered them nothing but living a barren, highly impoverished existence. They had no access to computers. No access to cell phones. They were treated like children. Their environment was highly restrictive and repressive.

Finally, most runaways feared living in places the state would place them, where they would be in constant danger, where they were routinely physically, emotionally and sexually abused by other juveniles and by staff. I think you are expecting to much of derelicts living in trailer parks.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:48:55 PM

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quote:

trying to get such a vulnerable person to consent to anything this drastic is... thoughtless at best. When a runaway 16 year old walks up to your trailer, your focus should probably be how to get her to a place where she can be responsible for her own decisions.

What do you think the IQ of the defendant is? Did it ever dawn on you that the defendant in this case is mentally defecient. Were you really picturing Einstein living in a trailer park, or some out of work, mentally disabled, redneck Southerner, who never made it past 5th grade? There are neutral parties in this case who will testify there was no emotional abuse. I dont see who anyone can really know what the truth is, or how we can ever find it out at this point in time.

Someone wrote: "She was not eighteen when the slave contract was signed."
There is no law that says a minor cant sign a play document. There is no evidence to suggest that this female thought she was trully obligating herself to be slave. The way I see it, it was all part of game, until I see evidence to the contrary. The way my brain works is this. I could be wrong for this, but I assume people are not guilty until I see or hear some evidence of their guilt. I give people the benefit of the doubt. If you are claiming someone has committed a crime, you need to have the facts to back up your claim. Did they have sex with her before she was 18? Was she working as a hooker when this guy met her? There are a lot of unanswered questions here.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/18/2010 6:53:21 PM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:51:06 PM

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Someone wrote: "I read that document and some MO law"

These guys have not been charged with any violation of MO laws.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:53:20 PM

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Wow this case is hitting close to home for some folks it seems. There are a lot of unanswered questions here that comes to mind but I will not ask.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:54:52 PM

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quote:

Whipthehip: If you were a lawyer you would present your arguments more clearly and concisely.

Sure, if you were paying me $500 / hour.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 6:55:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

rying to get such a vulnerable person to consent to anything this drastic is... thoughtless at best.

What do you think the IQ of the defendant is? Did it ever dawn on you that the defendant in this case is mentally defecient. Were you really picturing Einstein living in a trailer park, or some out of work, mentally disabled, redneck Southerner, who never made it past 5th grade? There are neutral parties in this case who will testify there was no emotional abuse. I dont see who anyone can really know what the truth is, or how we can ever find it out at this point in time.

Someone wrote: "She was not eighteen when the slave contract was signed."
There is no law that says a minor cant sign a play document. There is no evidence to suggest that this female thought she was trully obligating herself to be slave. The way I see it, it was all part of game, until I see evidence to the contrary. The way my brain works is this. I could be wrong for this, but I assume people are not guilty until I see or hear some evidence of their guilt. I give people the benefit of the doubt. If you are claiming someone has committed a crime, you need to have the facts to back up your claim. Did they have sex with her before she was 18? Was she working as a hooker when this guy met her? There are a lot of unanswered questions here.

http://www.ksdk.com/news/pdfs/090910_warning.pdf
page 7;#6 She was 18 at the time of signing.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:14:39 PM

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Many of the news stories said she was eighteen when she signed the slave contract. The court documents said she wasn't yet eighteen.

I read the MO law to understand the terms better that were on the court documents.

Dude, play slave contract? He fucking had her tattooed multiple times with a bar code, slave ID, etc. The abortions were not at a doctors office! He is accused of performing them on her using different methods.

Fact... he took a minor into his home and with whatever she had going on, enticed her, taught her/whatever. What person in their right mind harbors a minor run away? That alone ought to get him convicted of stupidity. Her giving consent on any level could be considered off base mentally and emotionally with her background.

I'm wondering if they will actually be adding charges in the days to come.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 9/18/2010 7:16:26 PM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:32:51 PM

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quote:

Wow this case is hitting close to home for some folks it seems. There are a lot of unanswered questions here that comes to mind but I will not ask.

There was thirty-some year-old guy renting a room at the hotel I managed who had a parasail concession at the Fountain Bleu Hilton. He didn't use drugs. He was living with a 13 or 14 year old runaway. At the time I was very young and very naive. I had never been on a date with a female in my life. I thought of turning him in. One day, I had a chance to talk to her alone. I asked her if she was happy. She said she had never been happier in her life. She came from an abusive home where her alcoholic father physically, emotionally and sexually abused her on a regular basis. She ran away from home to escape his abuse. She was living on the street when this guy found her and offered her a place to stay. She told me he never came on to her, that she came on to him. That she could not stop being sexually active, that no one was going to stop her from having sex with who she wanted. Now when I thought about all the teenagers in the building that were her same age, they were all smoking pot. Looking back now, I have to say I think she was better off with this guy than anyone else. He had his own business. He had a stable income. He was a charismatic guy. Everyone liked hanging out with him. He did not use drugs.

This guy did everything for her. He lived to make her happy. As best I can recall now, they lived at the hotel for many years, She was always beaming and smiling. She spent everyday at the beach helping him with his parasail consession. Visitors would hire him to glide in a parasail high in the air behind his motorboat. I myself am deathly afraid of heights I also spoke to other runaways living at my hotel who were taken to "Juvi" and escaped. The stories they told were nightmarish.

Ive run into a lot of females who started having sex early in life. Many of them were destroyed by it, A smaller number said they never regreted having sex as early as they did. Now we live in a different time, That never could have happended today.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:40:40 PM

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quote:

He fucking had her tattooed multiple times with a bar code, slave ID, etc

This happened after she was 18 years old. People in the BDSM community do this. There are 18 year olds here on collarme.com saying they have been into BDSM for years, and are looking for a guy who will brand them. The law allows minors to get extreme cosmetic surgery, to pierce their nipples, tongue, nose, eyebrows, bellybutton and labia. You have very young guys getting a prince albert. I dont think piercings are sane at any age. But I do believe in people being allowed to make their own choices, live their lives the way they wish, so long as it does not entail hurting others. If it were up to my personal tastes, I would make all piercings illegal.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:44:11 PM

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Shakes head and moves on...

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:45:39 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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Any individuals who illegally harbors a 16 year old, runaway foster-child, engages in sex with her, provides drugs for her, and then introduces her to the wonderful world of sexual slavery and exploitation - sure as hell isn't going to be suddenlly pristine in their motives, just because the girl crosses that magical maturity endowing threshold of turning a day older on her 18th birthday.

It doesn't really matter if she was legally or mentally capable of consenting to sign a slave contract. In most states, selling sexual services for profit is illegal. Performing abortions, without a medical license to do so - illegal. Solicting another for sex, illegal.

Most people who engage in Master/slave dynamics are careful not to do so with a minor. Forget the morality and ethics of the matter, and just consider that it is self-serving and SMART to avoid doing things that can get you arrested and on trial in a Federal Court of Law!

When someone has no care for their own liberties, indulges their baser desires without concern for the consequences and exploites a minor in the pursuit of those indulgences - well, I don't have a lot of pity or concern for them and I hate like hell that their actions are associated in any way with what it is that I do, in my own pracgtice of BDSM.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:47:38 PM

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"The abortions were not at a doctors office! He is accused of performing them on her using different methods. "

You certainly believe everything you are told. I dont put a lot of stock in these particular allegations. I think law enforcement concocted this allegation. Until I hear her make this claim, I think it is just puffery.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:50:22 PM

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quote:

Any individuals who illegally harbors a 16 year old, runaway foster-child, engages in sex with her

They have not charged this guy with statutory rape. Nor did I read he had sex with her before she was 18. Are you sure you are not reading more into the story than what was written and assuming the worst?

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:58:23 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

Any individuals who illegally harbors a 16 year old, runaway foster-child, engages in sex with her

They have not charged this guy with statutory rape. Nor did I read he had sex with her before she was 18. Are you sure you are not reading more into the story than what was written and assuming the worst?

The assumptions I make, are that the Fed's got dibs on prosecuting these individuals. I assume the state would and probably will levy their own charges, assuming that any statues of limitations regarding statutory rape haven't expired, also assuming that if found guilty of the Federal charges, it is cost effective and serves a valid purpose to pile on additional charges with lesser legal consequences.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:58:53 PM

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This abuse of a minor in the report has nothing to do with BDSM. It was abuse period. As has been stated by a few other posters there were many laws broken even after the young woman turned 18. Once proven in a court of law that these men did the actions they were charged with to a minor or for that case an adult...they totally deserve the punishment they get (if not more).

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 7:59:22 PM

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The Feds are counting on people like you to believe everything they say and make up your mind bofore you have heard one word from the other side. There are many 18 year females here on collarme.com who have been practicing BDSM for many years. I know you would like to think that teenagers dont have sex, but it happens. As I understand it she was an adult and an active participant in selling her own body. If this is true, it is ageist and sexist to charge this guy, and not charge her. Believe or not there are some women and men who like being pimped out. She may always have engaged in safe sex. She may have required all her customers to use a condom. I think prostitution is an archaic law.

You have children raised in BDSM households who are very comfortable with the BDSM dynmic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Any individuals who illegally harbors a 16 year old, runaway foster-child, engages in sex with her, provides drugs for her, and then introduces her to the wonderful world of sexual slavery and exploitation - sure as hell isn't going to be suddenlly pristine in their motives, just because the girl crosses that magical maturity endowing threshold of turning a day older on her 18th birthday.

It doesn't really matter if she was legally or mentally capable of consenting to sign a slave contract. In most states, selling sexual services for profit is illegal. Performing abortions, without a medical license to do so - illegal. Solicting another for sex, illegal.

Most people who engage in Master/slave dynamics are careful not to do so with a minor. Forget the morality and ethics of the matter, and just consider that it is self-serving and SMART to avoid doing things that can get you arrested and on trial in a Federal Court of Law!

When someone has no care for their own liberties, indulges their baser desires without concern for the consequences and exploites a minor in the pursuit of those indulgences - well, I don't have a lot of pity or concern for them and I hate like hell that their actions are associated in any way with what it is that I do, in my own pracgtice of BDSM.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/18/2010 8:00:10 PM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 8:05:10 PM

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What an ignorant comment. The reason this case is being tried in Federal Court is that it is too weak to try in state court. The Goverment does not have the evidence to support their wild claims. It is much easier to get a conviction in Federal Court, where defendants have much fewer rights. The one and only charge against the defendants is Human Trafficing. If they are guilty, and she actively participating in her own trafficing then she should be charged with the same crime. It looks like she sdd her body for her own personal advantage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

quote:

Any individuals who illegally harbors a 16 year old, runaway foster-child, engages in sex with her

They have not charged this guy with statutory rape. Nor did I read he had sex with her before she was 18. Are you sure you are not reading more into the story than what was written and assuming the worst?

The assumptions I make, are that the Fed's got dibs on prosecuting these individuals. I assume the state would and probably will levy their own charges, assuming that any statues of limitations regarding statutory rape haven't expired, also assuming that if found guilty of the Federal charges, it is cost effective and serves a valid purpose to pile on additional charges with lesser legal consequences.

quote:

The assumptions I make, are that the Fed's got dibs on prosecuting these individuals. I assume the state would and probably will levy their own charges, assuming that any statues of limitations regarding statutory rape haven't expired, also assuming that if found guilty of the Federal charges, it is cost effective and serves a valid purpose to pile on additional charges with lesser legal consequences.

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