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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 8:09:33 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

The Feds are counting on people like you to believe everything they say and make up your mind bofore you have heard one word from the other side. There are many 18 year females here on collarme.com who have been practicing BDSM for many years. I know you would like to think that teenagers dont have sex, but it happens. As I understand it she was an adult and an active participant in selling her own body. If this is true, it is ageist and sexist to charge this guy, and not charge her. Believe or not there are some women and men who like being pimped out. She may always have engaged in safe sex. She may have required all her customers to use a condom. I think prostitution is an archaic law.

You have children raised in BDSM households who are very comfortable with the BDSM dynmic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

Any individuals who illegally harbors a 16 year old, runaway foster-child, engages in sex with her, provides drugs for her, and then introduces her to the wonderful world of sexual slavery and exploitation - sure as hell isn't going to be suddenlly pristine in their motives, just because the girl crosses that magical maturity endowing threshold of turning a day older on her 18th birthday.

It doesn't really matter if she was legally or mentally capable of consenting to sign a slave contract. In most states, selling sexual services for profit is illegal. Performing abortions, without a medical license to do so - illegal. Solicting another for sex, illegal.

Most people who engage in Master/slave dynamics are careful not to do so with a minor. Forget the morality and ethics of the matter, and just consider that it is self-serving and SMART to avoid doing things that can get you arrested and on trial in a Federal Court of Law!

When someone has no care for their own liberties, indulges their baser desires without concern for the consequences and exploites a minor in the pursuit of those indulgences - well, I don't have a lot of pity or concern for them and I hate like hell that their actions are associated in any way with what it is that I do, in my own pracgtice of BDSM.




Oh please, I have an inherent distrust of Fed's. People like me? You mean individuals who refuse to defend a belief in BDSM as a defense against atrocity? Or, people who don't allow their inherent distrust of the powers that be, dictate the direction of their own moral compass?

I don't know the facts of this case but here's a bit of news for you. Neither do you.

Also, read the actual indictment, not the article. There were a couple references there to the defendent having sex with the FV while still a minor.

Further, people like me are going to make up the jury. I sure as hell hope that the Federal Prosecutors DO count on people like me. That would make for a very interesting verdict.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 8:14:01 PM   
Mistletoe


Posts: 288
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip


They have not charged this guy with statutory rape. Nor did I read he had sex with her before she was 18. Are you sure you are not reading more into the story than what was written and assuming the worst?




Go back and read count 1. It is stated plainly. He did indeed have sex with her as a minor.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/pdfs/090910_warning.pdf





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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 8:42:22 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		I see no evidence that an atrocity took place. Let's suppose before she turned 18 they had sex a couple of times. He showed her bondage videos, and they really interested her. Let's suppose she pressured him into becoming his slave. Let's suppose months before she turned 18 she signed a slave contract and gave it to him without him ever asking her for it. I have seen things like this happen before. Soon she was pushing him to do more and more. She may have wanted to work as an exotic dancer, and wanted to do the Hustler photo shoot. She carried a gun and a cellphone at all times. As she got older she got tired of him. He became less the loving person he was when they met and more abusive toward her. Then one night they engaged in electic play. He was angry with her, and he didn't honor her safe word, expecting she was ready to leave him anyway. Things went bad and she had cardiac arrest. He drove her to the hospital where they saved her life. Now she became hell bent on getting away from this guy and getting revenge. The story could have happened like this. If it did, the guy certainly does not deserve life in prison, which is very likely what he will get. Not because he had sex with a minor, but rather because of all edge play BDSM activities she asked him to do. Now she will say he did those things to her against her will. If she was so unhappy she could have asked her co-workers to help her or her boss. She was making good money. She didn't need them. If she was unhappy she could have told the Hustler photographer that she needed to get away from these guys. He said they were all lovey-dovey when they came to do the shoot. I don't know all the facts, but I do know the facts as they are presented don't add up and dont make sense.

Second, I know police and law enforcement always overstate how much evidence they have, how strong their case is. They are always concocting false supporting sidebars llike the one in this case where they claim he performed illegal abortions on her. This sounds to me like a phony allegation. Why didn't she go to the doctor to get a real abortion. She was a dancer making good money. The Fed's story against these guys just dont add up in my mind.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/18/2010 8:48:02 PM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 8:54:48 PM   
Mistletoe


Posts: 288
Joined: 8/16/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

 Let's suppose before she turned 18 they


You could play "lets suppose" all day long....

Lets just see what facts and evidence comes out in the actual trial.

< Message edited by Mistletoe -- 9/18/2010 8:55:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 9:28:03 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip
Let's suppose before she turned 18 they had sex a couple of times. He showed her bondage videos, and they really interested her. Let's suppose she pressured him into becoming his slave. Let's suppose months before she turned 18 she signed a slave contract and gave it to him without him ever asking her for it. I have seen things like this happen before. Soon she was pushing him to do more and more. She may have wanted to work as an exotic dancer, and wanted to do the Hustler photo shoot. She carried a gun and a cellphone at all times. As she got older she got tired of him. He became less the loving person he was when they met and more abusive toward her. Then one night they engaged in electic play. He was angry with her, and he didn't honor her safe word, expecting she was ready to leave him anyway. Things went bad and she had cardiac arrest. He drove her to the hospital where they saved her life. Now she became hell bent on getting away from this guy and getting revenge. The story could have happened like this.


Dude, nice fiction you wrote yourself there. It's funny how there are a mile of charges saying the rape, torture, death threats, forced prostitution and forced abortions happened (among other atrocities), but somehow you know better. It's amazing to me the crap people will spin in their heads until the rape victim becomes some sort of bitchy whore looking for revenge. Have you ever performed an abortion on a sub? Have you ever killed animals in front of a sub? Have you ever threatened a sub with death? Have you ever sold a sub to other guys? Well, why not?? Isn't that what BDSM is all about? Safe, sane and consensual? Who needs that!!

And your story about the 13-year-old who was happy living with the man fucking her? Great story, but non-consensual. Does the phrase "mentally unfit to consent" mean anything to you? Minors are not fit to consent. EVER. UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. "Let's suppose before she turned 18 they had sex a couple of times..." Are you out of your mind? Having sex once with a minor is a shitty, manipulative, illegal thing to do. Everything else could be icing on the cake, as far as I'm concerned, and anyone who thinks they can justify sex with a minor by measuring it against society's ability to care for said minor otherwise is a shitty, manipulative person. The world is a pretty wonderful place, with a lot of beauty and kindness in it, but sometimes I am just shocked to death by how disgusting it can be.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
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RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 9:35:30 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
The world is a pretty wonderful place, with a lot of beauty and kindness in it, but sometimes I am just shocked to death by how disgusting it can be.


This might be a bad time, but my previous forum signature:
Contrast - the source of all things beautiful, amazing and terrible. Contrast - perhaps, simply ... divine.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 9:59:37 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
The world is a pretty wonderful place, with a lot of beauty and kindness in it, but sometimes I am just shocked to death by how disgusting it can be.


This might be a bad time, but my previous forum signature:
Contrast - the source of all things beautiful, amazing and terrible. Contrast - perhaps, simply ... divine.


It's never a bad time for a lovely quote from a good person

(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The good times never last - 9/18/2010 10:11:17 PM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		"AlwaysLisa I'm in shock. I can't believe what is being written here. When is the line crossed?"

When no consent has been given. It seems all interaction was consensual. Even the Feds are not saying she did not consent. That is why they are not being tried for rape, and kidnapping.

"Does it happen about the time you threaten someone with death?"

Who said they threatened anyone at all? There is no allegation they made any threat at all. I guess you are not very familiar with criminal indictments. They make all kinds of allegations, homing to get the kind of reaction they got from you without having to substiantiate anything.


"Selling another human for profit,"

They didn't sell anyone at all.

"( I don't care if it's only for a pack of cigarettes) is illegal"

Selling someone for a pack of cigarettes? You believe that. Nobody is that stupid to sell someone for so little compensation. THIS IS A CLUE, that somethign else is going on here. I have never heard a female sold in the US for less than $10,000. If you own a a female, she can make $100 in a few mintues. Why would anyone sell her for a pack of cigarettes? Can I sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. You are obviously very guillible.

"period, no signed piece of paper will suffice in court."

Of course, signed papers are valid proof of consensual sex. and evidence of interest in rough sex and BDSM activities.

"Shooting animals that the girl was fond of and then threatening with the same, is also going to be hard to defend in court."

Once again all I can say is you are very guillible. You believe things without a single shred of evidence.

"if only 1/3 of what she stated is true,"

If your mother had balls, she would have been your father! Make up a bunch of bullshit and people will think at least 1/3 of it must be true. Where did you take Logic 101. You fail and need to retake it.

then I wouldn't shed a tear if the men were removed from society. That would be an act of kindness, which they don't deserve.



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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 2:29:46 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Fast Reply -

Whip the Hip has a most interesting posting history here, see post #217 in this thread from 2007. Notice the lack of research or credentials.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_950532/mpage_11/tm.htm

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(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 7:34:45 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		"It's funny how there are a mile of charges saying the rape, torture, death threats, forced prostitution and forced abortions happened (among other atrocities), but somehow you know better."

There is nothing funny about it. The rape and torture were play. There were no death threats. A death threat is something that can not be proved. So you believe every charge without any evidence to support it, without hearing any testimony. Law enforcement officers who believe BDSM is immoral, perverted and deranged love you. You believe whatever they say. Can you get this through your fucking skull? The girl carried a gun, she had a cell phone, she worked in a strip club. If she feared these guys she could have left them anytime. If they made death threats against her do you think she would have stayed with them?

"forced prostitution and forced abortions happened "

There was no forced prostitution or forced abortions. These charges have no meret, and are not supported by the evidence. If some law enforcement officer (cop) makes an allegation, you automatically believe it. You are a dangerous person. One day you may be shocked to find you have been accussed of all kinds of things you know are not true. It is common practice to allledge defendants are guilty of all kinds of crimes, to get members on the jury like you to assume they are guilty before you have even heard any testimony, before you have been presented with any evidence. Where is the presumption of innocence?

I have seen with my own eyes over and over how law enforement officers lie and make up charges to strengthen a case and make a case seem much more sensational than it is. Law enforcement jokes about this this. They call it "testilying." They say a man has got to do what a man has got to do. They say the law should make all BDSM activity illegal. They say they will get all those scumbag abusive males who prractice BDSM and force innocent naive females into submission, so they can do unspeakable things to them. And if they have to manufacture a few charges to get one of these scumbags convicted so be it. They believe they are benefiting society. Most police do not commit perjury for personal gain. They do it to get the bad guys off the street. And if they happen to think you are one of those bad guys, heaven help you even if you are not. It is more common than not for police to pile on charges and allegations. If figure if they charge a person with enough crimes, they will be forced to pay more to bond out, and will be more likely to plea guilty to the actual charge they are guilty of. Most of the time when a person is charged with 100 heinous crimes, the reason they allow him to plead guilty to just one of them is they know there is no evidence to support the 99 other cirmes he was charged with. They are happy to get convction on the one.

If these guys did everything that is alledged don't you you strange these guys are just being charged with human trafficing. The state is hoping they will get a conviction on the human traffic charge if members on the jury believe just 1/3 of all their allegations. It wont make difference to jury members that these guys didn't commit the crime of human trafficing. They simply wont want to let these guys go free believing they are simply the evil scumbags the Feds make them out to be. As long as the Feds can get you to convict based on a large number of sensational, unsupported allegations they have it made.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/19/2010 8:04:34 AM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 7:48:10 AM   
BonesFromAsh


Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

"It's funny how there are a mile of charges saying the rape, torture, death threats, forced prostitution and forced abortions happened (among other atrocities), but somehow you know better."

There is nothing funny about it. The rape and torture were play. There were no death threats. A death threat is something that can not be proved. So you believe every charge without any evidence to support it, without hearing any testimony. Law enforcement officers who believe BDSM is immoral, perverted and deranged love you. You believe whatever they say. Can you get this through your fucking skull? The girl carried a gun, she had a cell phone, she worked in a strip club. If she feared these guys she could have left them anytime. If they made death threats against her do you think she would have stayed with them?


Could you provide a link that offers proof of these points.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 8:10:36 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		WinsomeDefiance wrote: Oh please, I have an inherent distrust of Fed's . . . read the actual indictment, not the article"

Yes, you certainly have an inherent distrust of Feds, you believe everything they allege in their indictment without having heard any testimony, without having been presented any evidence. I guess there is no need to even give these guys a trial since you have already convicted them in your minds.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 8:24:20 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		"Could you provide a link that offers proof of these points. "

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=324935

Funny, you never asked for "PROOF" for any of the goverments allegations. Why is that? There is a lot more exculpatory evidence you are not aware of. This girl told her co-workers that guy she was staying with was wonderful. There are other people with helpful information to the defense who are afraid to step-out lest goverment come after them, and charge them with all kinds of bogus charges. Notice the outcome of the trial agaisnt Blogovich. Notice how many charges the goverment alledged? Notice how many charges he was convicted of? 90% of the time, this is the way it is. The goverment files every charge in the book, like throwing mud at a wall hoping a little bit will stick. And iif they cant get them for actually commiting a crime, they get them for making the tinest mistatement to investigaors. That is how they got Marth Stewert. At the 0-11 world trade center investigation they kept some poor guy in jail two years, because he failed to mention he had an AM/FM radio on his bed that just happened to slip his mind.

I am leavng this forum. It seems everyone here already has made up their minds, and convicted these guys based simply on the indictment and allgations made against them. Yes, even if 1/3 of the allegations are true they are evil monsters. But the truth less than 1/10 of the allegations are true. With her permission, cooperation, and active participation they pimped her out across state lines. This is the one charge that has been filed against them, and they are guilty of this one charge. It could very well be this female wanted to be pimped out, that she enjoys sex with younger men,



< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/19/2010 8:32:50 AM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 8:34:23 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1088
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		Whip...

These men were actually charged, it's not simply a woman crying foul.  Don't you think, they would have secured physical proof prior to officially charging them with what they have?    Read up on abortions, especially home made jobs.  There is always evidence left behind to prove they were done, in the way of internal scaring.  From what this woman described, and the internal and external scars left behind, plus medical records at the hospital, it sounds to me like they have all the proof they need.   What do you require...a video?   I think that is available as well.

I don't see anyone making assumptions here but you in your over zealous defense of men, based on your "what if" scenerios.   Most seem to be reading what is in print, in the actual case document and going from there.  Things may come to pass in trial that will prove this woman was brainwashed into doing what she did.   Or, it may not come out in her favor.   We won't know anything until then.   However, taking the charges as written, tells me those charges must have some shred of proof.   Mental evalutations, physical examinations, medical records, will either back up her story, or it won't.  

Don't under estimate the human mind.   This woman may have gone into self protection mode, doing as she was told without question for fear of her life.  It happens.  To someone on the outside, it may have even looked like she was enjoying herself.   Right now I see alot of "he did", "she did" accusations.   I'm betting there is a bit more proof then we have read about in the charges.  Lets see what happens.

Regardless, the allegations are fairly hideous.   Why are you so adamant in defending these men?   

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 8:40:09 AM   
BonesFromAsh


Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

"Could you provide a link that offers proof of these points. "

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=324935



Interesting article.

It mentions
quote:

Bagley began sexually torturing FV in February 2004, according to the indictment, when she turned 18 years old


and yet on page 7 of the indictment it states...

quote:


Between on or about December 2002 to and including February 2004, defendant, Edward Bagley, Sr. sexually abused FV repeatedly while she was still a minor.


Interesting...indeed.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 9:11:40 AM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1088
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline 		14 people missing, police fear another mass suicide.  The neighbors saw nothing out of the ordinary.  

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/los_angeles&id=7676173

Outward appearances to strangers can be misleading.

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 9:40:35 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

WinsomeDefiance wrote: Oh please, I have an inherent distrust of Fed's . . . read the actual indictment, not the article"

Yes, you certainly have an inherent distrust of Feds, you believe everything they allege in their indictment without having heard any testimony, without having been presented any evidence. I guess there is no need to even give these guys a trial since you have already convicted them in your minds.


Why don't you let me, speak for myself, and stop trying to infer that you know what I believe.

Since you can't seem to argue any of the alleged facts, as presented in the indictment, without resorting to diversional tactics and insults - why don't you just not reference me at all. I"m as disgusted to be associated with anything that you post, as I am to have anything espoused in that indictment associated with WIITID in my practice of BDSM.

WinD


< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 9/19/2010 9:43:48 AM >

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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 9:49:48 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I don't understand the connection between the LA case and the one that is being discussed in the thread.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 10:10:32 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		"These men were actually charged, it's not simply a woman crying foul. Don't you think, they would have secured physical proof prior to officially charging them with what they have? "

Just because someone has been charged with many crimes does not mean they are guilty of any them. They have only charged these Defendants with "Human Trafficing." They have not charged them with kidnap, rape, battery, making unlawful threats, or givng anyone an abortion. No I don't think they would have secured physical proof officially charging them. It is normal for law enforcement to make up false allegation, to twist the facts, to make claims that are untrue. I think the law enforement officials involved are repulsed by BDSM practices. I think they believe all males who do these things to females are sick, perverted, deranged, dangerous, scumbags who should be locked up for the rest of their lives. I believe they think they are doing society a favor by making up all kinds of false allegations agasint these guys. I have seen this happen countless times.

"Regardless, the allegations are fairly hideous."

You mean like flogging her, raping her, skewing her breasts needles, shocking her with electric current, and sewing her vagina shut? You mean like pimping her out. ***ALL*** these things are done in the BDSM community with consent of 18 year old subs who have been into BDSM for many years.

"Why are you so adamant in defending these men?"

Because the facts dont add up, because I believe they are being rail-roaded for practicing consensual BDSM. Because I have seen hundreds of cases like this where law enforcement makes all kinds of wild allegations, only to find they have all been made up.

I know the way law enforcement operates. I know how dishonest I believe people are innocent until enough evidence is supplied to convince me otherwise. I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt. I just dont automatically identify with every person who claims to be a victim, and believe everything they say. Realty tends to be less black and whilte,



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RE: The good times never last - 9/19/2010 10:29:32 AM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		WhipTheHip,
I can appreciate that you're trying to make us consider alternatives. And your willingness to lose respect to do so.

What I don't appreciate, however, is how (disrespectfully) and what you're linking these theories to. It's a disservice to whatever poor lawyer has to make one of the arguments you did to defend someone legitimately.

After you shoot a soda can through your own hand, the next person who legitimately needs to shoot at a soda can will be associated with you.

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