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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/3/2010 11:45:55 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
The 'ugh' was for how hung up you are on your outrage. Not for the appellations.


I'm not sure outrage is an accurate description of my thought processes.  I have a hard enough time being emotionally engaged when I want to be in real life; like many autistics, I spend most of my time in a flatline state where I am not particularly aware of feeling anything.   It's not unpleasant, it's just neutral.  It's even more difficult for me to feel much of anything based on what I read.  Mostly, I really and truly want to know, because I don't fully understand the motivations or dynamics you are describing.  It's quite rare to get a look at them from someone who is aware of their own propensity to pose, manipulate and deceive and willing to communicate clearly about it. 

If I spent enough time thinking about it, I would suspect that I felt curiosity, some personal distaste and possibly some pity, in order of magnitude.  If I experienced outrage at neurotypicals being neurotypicals, especially if they're not directly affecting me, I'd spend my entire life being pissed off.  And there is too much to enjoy about life to focus on the fact that most people do icky stuff for reasons beyond my comprehension.  I got over my major mad at that a long time ago.  It's still annoying when it actually gets in my way, but the fact is that I live in a world that is overwhelmingly populated by what might as well be a different species.   Understanding them to some extent is essential to coping as a functional adult in the real world, but they'll always be weird to me.  I just don't spend a lot of time and energy letting it chap my ass.

quote:


Oh. Ok. So all the other women who wear makeup, do their hair and dress up for a date are being dishonest.


I don't know.  I can't speak for other people's internal thought processes.  I think it's something they do to feel good about themselves, and I don't think most of them are being consciously deceptive.  The media tends to bombard women with messages that lower their self-esteem and encourage them to conform to fashion ideals or be socially rejected, and I suspect a lot of that has been internalized.  For me, speaking for no one else, this is how I feel about my personal integrity.  I want to show people my real face.  I like myself as I am.   I don't think there's anything wrong with dressing or decorating yourself any way that makes you feel good, and this is what makes me feel good.  I leave others to their otherness. 

It's not really a right or wrong issue so much as a different operating system.  For me it would feel dishonest to put on an artificial look; for another person, self-decorating just makes them feel good and they have every right to enjoy it.  I do think that if someone is doing it out of deep insecurity or from having bought into the media messages that a woman isn't beautiful unless she does X, Y and Z, then it may not be the healthiest choice for them.  I'd rather see them work on their self-esteem than their makeup skills.  But I don't know, and I have no way of knowing, what the right answer is for any individual. Lack of data; no conclusion. 


quote:

With years of understanding and work, I can see that. But I think you've forgotten what it's like to be single and looking.


I have never known what it is like to be single and looking in neurotypical society.  I'm a geek and a nerd; I hang out exclusively with other geeks and nerds.  We tend not to date so much as make friends first and figure out if we want to have sex later.  Poly and BDSM is pretty common; we like configurations where you basically have to be transparent and clearly negotiate everything verbally.  Unspoken social rules and games tend to mess us up hard, and most of us don't speak that language at all.  Pretty much everyone I voluntarily spend time with operates on a WYSWIG interface.  Never done it any other way, and I honestly don't think I could function well if I tried.


quote:


In my experience, autistic folk are bad liars, but not necessarily good at being honest. I worked at a nursing home for a couple years, so I'm not completely drawing this from my ass.

Complete honesty requires time to shake through your own illusions, and autistics have as much trouble with that as anyone else. Just in different places.


I am not personally aware of having illusions, but of course that is the nature of illusions.  In what places, in your experience, do autistics tend to delude themselves?


quote:

Think of some of the painfully obvious things that, shall we say autistics of 3 or 4 standard deviations from norm experience trouble with.


The only issue that comes to mind as being a problem for me personally is my occasionally slipping up and assuming that a neurotypical thinks like me, and trying to communicate with them on that basis.  I'm aware it doesn't work.  I've had some fairly spectacular failures, usually due to the fact that I have difficulty comprehending emotional subtext or understanding what will trigger another person's emotional engagement when I think we're having a fact based dialogue and I am not aware of being emotionally engaged.  I'm not sure this qualifies as an illusion however.


quote:

If I had to estimate, I'd say I fell on the opposite side of that curve... I'm far more intuitively able to grasp motivations and subtle signals. Though not perfect at it, I'm better than the average bear. So it's like dealing with a world full of autistics.


That's very interesting, but how do you know that what you are experiencing is not an illusion? 

In my experience, people who believe they are skilled at understanding other people fail pretty miserably with autistics.  I tend to have a lot of WTF conversational disconnect moments when I am utterly confused because someone is convinced that I feel a certain way or that I really mean a certain thing.  I have no fucking clue what they are talking about until I puzzle out why they had an emotional response to a statement or a question that has little or no emotional content for me.  I can generally do these puzzles fast enough to get by, but that doesn't keep them from being puzzles. 

What may be happening is that the person I'm communicating has the experience of being able to read neurotypical people's cues and guess fairly accurately what they are feeling, and perceives that I am giving some of these cues, possibly in response to their own subtle cues of emotional subtext.  The problem is, I can't read their cues and I'm not aware of giving any myself.   Think of a blind person whose face lapses into odd expressions; they can't see it and consequently they're not fully aware of the signals they're sending.  I am generally not aware of experiencing the emotion they believe I am according to their experience, nor do I have a clue why I would have the motives they are ascribing to me.  If I think about it hard I can sometimes figure out what their trigger point was and how I mis-cued, but not always. 


quote:

Hundreds of single men, looking. Hundreds of single women, trying to weigh options. The signal to noise ratio is appalling.


Human reproductive strategies are highly polymorphic; they have to be, when two genders are actively competing for genetic survival while requiring one another for genetic transmission.  But monkey instincts will still out.

quote:

I sat with my friends for a few minutes, then said "Watch this" and got up and walked over to the girl. Stopping right in front of her, I modified my body language to display complete confidence. Lie. I said, "I just wanted to say that I thought you were the prettiest girl in the room." true, as far as it goes. "I couldn't help myself" Lie "I just had to do this. Hope you can forgive me."

I went back and sat down.

Before I went up to her, I made a point of having a loud, friendly conversation with the barista, who I already knew. My friends were there to back me up and 'congratulate' me. Which they did with no prompting. The stage was set. Manipulation, pure and simple.


Actually, it's more of a basic primate display.  Male monkey displays behavioral hallmark of high social status, offers (verbal) grooming, shows his status and his social skills by demonstrating social alliances.  This is what monkeys do. 


quote:

I'll ask the cook to come out, or the manager, and compliment them. If there's a bar, I'll stand there and 'wait' for service and strike up a conversation with the trucker next to me. Then I'll tell him "Watch this" and go hit on the girl. With the waitress smiling at me because I already told her I was thinking about doing something like that.


Male (and sometimes female) bonobos form short-term social alliances of this nature to receive support when engaging in courtship.  Monkey tactics work very well on monkeys.  In autistics, the primate social wiring tends to be broken enough that the same tactics work either much better or much worse, or a combination of the two. 


quote:

But If I do this: If I just go up to a girl and say, "Hey, I'm single and looking. You probably don't meet my standards but I'd like to find out if you do. Are you game?" I'd be being completely honest, and I'd fail almost every time.


Other than the self-focused rudeness of saying that a potential mate probably doesn't meet your standards, as opposed to being concerned about your meeting their standards, this does actually work pretty well for geek/nerd types.  A more neutral way of putting it is "I'm single and looking (or poly and in X configuration); I would like to get to know you better and find out if we're compatible for a relationship."  I've seen it quite a bit in my community, and it has a decent success rate.  I'd guess that it's probably one of the more common approaches that we geek types use, since we suck so very badly at more sophisticated (read: involving misdirection and deception) social games. It's historically worked very well for me.  

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 2:22:36 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

Generally for all here on collarme, male Dominants, female Dominants, subs, slaves, bottoms, switches what have you, if you do not get a reply to your first mail in 99 percent of the cases they are just not interested and a second mail will just lead to annoyance. Now as some have pointed out, if you feel you made a bad introduction or that you would have a better chance if writing a new one, let some time go by and you can always try to write her again and hope that your new mail will catch her eye.

The problem is this, the ratio of male submissives to female Dominates is rather high, so most female Dominats get quite a few letters, sometimes yours just got lost in the clutter and a new better one might stand out and get the desired attention, and as long as you let enough time go by so that you are not spamming her mail account then I see no reason why you can not try again, but I do not think it would be very productive, most of the time you will be just ignored again.

I wish you well, and good luck.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to lickenforyou)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 1:49:54 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
That's very interesting, but how do you know that what you are experiencing is not an illusion? 

Because
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
I can't read their cues and I'm not aware of giving any myself.


Imagine being on the opposite side of this. You match nonverbal cues, or send off your own signals, and they might pick it up but it's all unconscious. They don't see what they're doing, or what you're doing. Not quite as bad as blindness; more like colorblindness.

You'd notice it. But is it illusion?
...
Illusion. Hm. We live in samsara; all is illusion.

That said, feedback is the reason. You only have to hear "How did you know what I was thinking?" a given amount of times before it sinks in that hey, you're doing something different here. If I pull out the really big guns... tell people what books and movies they like, approximate age, whether they have siblings, if their parents were young or older, what their favorite color is, stuff like that, people start freaking out and getting the hell away from me. To me, it's all common sense though; I don't have to think about it. And I used to wonder why other people didn't see the same things about me. It felt like I was doing something wrong, like I wasn't being as open as other people or something. Eventually I figured out it wasn't anything I was doing; they just couldn't see, not with me, not with each other. But they told themselves and each other stories to fill the gaps... so many lies, but they were believed. You ever watched somebody convince themselves they like/don't like something? It's eerie, they look so two-dimensional for that fraction of a moment, like a paper cutout of a person as they edit their internal dialogue... then a moment later, they snap back to full personhood, become aware of context, but that like/dislike is hardwired and subconscious, now. They will defend it to their dying breath; if you're going to change their mind, you have to come at it laterally. And I picked up that hey, they don't KNOW they're doing this!

Mentalism books helped; it's like an entire method on how to pick up the cues I do instinctually.

Plus, I've met a few other people like me. Interesting to note what perspectives they have on people;  because they can peek a little bit into the black box, and know where things go wrong.

But The Lord Giveth, and The Lord Taketh Away. One trait we seem to sacrifice for social perceptiveness is memory. Absentmindedness is rife. I have to plan very carefully in order to not lose my keys or my mind. Right now, I forgot I was making coffee and stopped in the middle of it. Bloody nuisance, that... Though the reverse is not true: being absentminded does not indicate above-average social perception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
I'm a geek and a nerd; I hang out exclusively with other geeks and nerds.


You're familiar with the never-ending blood war on defining 'geek' and 'nerd', right? Ok. I play a gorram Companion on a browncoat ship in the 'verse, every sunday. I throw out references like 'blood war', which any D&D nerd worth his salt can recognize. I listen to MC Frontalot and can hold it down in a debate on who was more influential in S.F., Heinlein or Azimov or Bradbury or Bova or Clark... I know who Fafhrd is. I know what drugs Hemingway was on when he was writing For Whom The Bell Tolls, and I'll randomly spout out "Maria! Maria!" I study math problems for fun. Have you seen any of the links I'm throwing out here? Plus, jegus as if this weren't enough on its own, I make my living as an application code developer.

And most of my buddies are all as nerdcore badass as I am. Though I seem to be the only one who listens that much to nerdcore, but hey! I'm just multicultural like that.

Stop trying to draw a nerds versus norms line here, it won't fly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
In what places, in your experience, do autistics tend to delude themselves?


Just like people, it's unpredictable. I mean, I can give you clinical definitions, but you already know those. Trying to compare and contrast, though, hm. About the only thing I can say with certainty is that it's not where 'neurotypicals' mess up. It's before that? More basic? I'm going off impressions here that I never really bothered to look into that deeply, so I can't be more precise than that.

Words are one thing. Normally people go off of tone and context more than content; so if I say "That's radical!" I can say "I like it", "I don't like it", "I like it and you" "I don't like it but you're ok" "I like it but you still suck"... etc. And norms will usually pick up on it.

Autistics will miss part of it. they'll hear the happy, I Like You tone and think "Time to play a game!" no matter the words. Or they'll hear the word and think it's radical no matter the tone. Most often, they'll miss an element of the context; that you're wearing a black suit and acting sad in general will be lost on them, even if they know what a funeral is and what the traditions are for it. Though baselines might miss something like that too. Like I said, it's a world of cardboard viewpoint you're hearing this from...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
But monkey instincts will still out.


I kind of agree with this, and kind of don't. On the one hand there's a lot of parallels. On the other, we've gone for a few dozen thousand years through some social progressions that most 'monkeys' don't; and fertility cycles, shape of the male cock, all kinds of things suggest that we're not playing by the same rules.

Enough, stuff to do. I can't keep up this writing pace. Later!




_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 2:07:53 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Stop trying to draw a nerds versus norms line here, it won't fly.

Thank you.

That's not the only thing she does that with as I'm sure you've noticed.


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(in reply to DMFParadox)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 3:32:40 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
That said, feedback is the reason. You only have to hear "How did you know what I was thinking?" a given amount of times before it sinks in that hey, you're doing something different here. If I pull out the really big guns... tell people what books and movies they like, approximate age, whether they have siblings, if their parents were young or older, what their favorite color is, stuff like that, people start freaking out and getting the hell away from me.


So a reasonably evidence based conclusion.  I'll go with that, but I still think you're likely to misread cues on non-neurotypicals.   I do get the impression that you've never had a good picture of my thought processes, let alone a super-accurate one, despite the fact that I've been doing a public brain dump in exhaustive and probably boring/annoying detail.  It doesn't matter how hard I work on being transparent; I'm still very likely to be misread, because in the neurotypical world, there are almost always social motivations and hidden emotional subtexts in statements of fact.  In the autistic world, the focus is on the literal meaning of the statements, and the other stuff mostly doesn't exist.....but you can't help believing that it does, because your mind works that way.  And your belief is very likely to cause conversational disconnects with someone who is autistic and highly literal, because it really is incorrect.


quote:


You're familiar with the never-ending blood war on defining 'geek' and 'nerd', right? Ok. I play a gorram Companion on a browncoat ship in the 'verse, every sunday. I throw out references like 'blood war', which any D&D nerd worth his salt can recognize. I listen to MC Frontalot and can hold it down in a debate on who was more influential in S.F., Heinlein or Azimov or Bradbury or Bova or Clark... I know who Fafhrd is.


Yes, you have excellent nerd cred.  No, I don't pay much attention to the specific terminology; I just know who my peeps are.  What's interesting is that you could clearly pass for one of my peeps, but your mindset is so far on the other side of what I'm used to dealing with that it's very nearly a complete opposite.

quote:

Stop trying to draw a nerds versus norms line here, it won't fly.


Perhaps I should replace "nerds" with "group with a much higher than normal incidence of high-functioning autistics who tend to be blunt, literal, forthright, and unable/unwilling to play sophisticated social games".  That's where I feel comfy.


quote:


I kind of agree with this, and kind of don't. On the one hand there's a lot of parallels. On the other, we've gone for a few dozen thousand years through some social progressions that most 'monkeys' don't; and fertility cycles, shape of the male cock, all kinds of things suggest that we're not playing by the same rules.


Exact same, no.  Still naked apes in a human zoo, most definitely. 


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 6:01:14 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
I'll go with that, but I still think you're likely to misread cues on non-neurotypicals.


If you're faking them well enough, as you've claimed more than a couple times, then I can be fooled.

There was another thread recently where I called the guy out on having Asperger's. You can find it in the introductions forum. He was getting very upset at my jokes, in a way that could have been meta or could have been lack of understanding; I covered both possibilities in ways both subtle and bfg, and he bought into the Asperger's traits instead of copping to the meta. So I pointed him to some theory of humor stuff I'd found helpful to aspies.

For you, I'd have to actually see a 'disconnect' that can be separated from someone who's just skimming words and missing shit. Which most people are guilty of from time to time, including me.

Actually, autism as a whole could be considered 'skimming words and missing shit', sort of. For certain values of 'skimming' and 'shit'.

Anyway, there's only so much you can read into text, regardless. Especially when self-referential loops get involved; "I'm this way and I'll prove it..." Shit gets demented at that point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
Perhaps I should replace "nerds" with "group with a much higher than normal incidence of high-functioning autistics who tend to be blunt, literal, forthright, and unable/unwilling to play sophisticated social games".  That's where I feel comfy.


Perhaps you should re-evaluate the geeks you're hanging with; maybe they're more sophisticated than you're giving them credit for? Plenty of mechanic/carpenter beer-swigging God-lovin' football fan non-'neurotypicals', and plenty of highly socially aware and sophisticated geeks around.

Nerds in the classic sense might fit the bill, but the word's been mongrelized.

Plus the other traits you're associating with each other don't always mesh--blunt and literal, forthright and unsophisticated/unwilling sophist... You can be blunt and sophisticated, for example. You can be literal and subtle, as opposed to forthright. Hell, you can be forthright and sly at the same time. It's fun, too. Like winning at chess by declaring which square you'll beat your opponent in, getting him so focused on that square that he misses the action that lands him there. Though it gets boring after a while when your playmates keep falling for the same trick... sigh. Not that I'd ever feel that way... <_<


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 6:17:57 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
If you're faking them well enough, as you've claimed more than a couple times, then I can be fooled.


I can mimic appropriate social responses, but not subtler cues so much.  What's almost never going to be actually happening for me is playing social status games or being emotionally present for a factual dialogue, especially online.  This is an assumption other people including you have made fairly frequently.  If I say I'm operating on a WYSWIG format and there is nothing there that I'm not clearly communicating, that is the literal truth.  The problem is that someone who *is* playing games would likely say the same thing.


quote:

Perhaps you should re-evaluate the geeks you're hanging with; maybe they're more sophisticated than you're giving them credit for? Plenty of mechanic/carpenter beer-swigging God-lovin' football fan non-'neurotypicals', and plenty of highly socially aware and sophisticated geeks around.


True.  I limit my social parameters to folks who pretty much always present themselves truthfully and will go to great lengths to be factual, even if they do so in a TMI overload manner.  Which I am generally guilty of myself, so I function best with others who communicate the same way.



_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 9:56:48 PM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
What's almost never going to be actually happening for me is playing social status games or being emotionally present for a factual dialogue, especially online.


Naw, dude. Dude. naw.

We learn everything emotionally. Abstract thought is impossible without emotional ties to other facts. Doesn't matter which emotion; we don't even have names for some of them, like 'the joy of discovering a pattern'... (Would that be patternalism?? heh.) But the emotions are there, inside every factoid, behind every abstraction.

Another thing that's a myth is that if you're not 'feeling' anything, you're not feeling anything. You're always feeling something, as long as you're alive. Your mind is always working in the background, making connections, revisiting memories... emotion is the lubricant. And the glue...

The idea that there is such a thing as 'emotionless' is a myth of pop culture. Blame Spock. Although he's a perfect example of putting the lie to the idea, seeing as how he ended up more emotional and sentimental than I can easily stomach in this last movie...

So what you probably are referring to is something along the lines of 'you don't take it personally'. And while that's theoretically possible, I would disagree. You've made assumptions about my character based on my statements, and that's the essence of taking something personally... it's the exact behavior you say you don't do.

They may not be the same assumptions a 'neurotypical' would make, but they're definitely there. I challenge you to read your own words and deny it.

Here's an easy one: you're assuming I'm reading you. You'd be right. Mostly. There are other assumptions I could point out that I have no doubt you'd vehemently deny, but they're there.

Those assumptions have changed over time, but the core template is still present. And you know what?

It's ok.

Really. You're supposed to. It's what human communication is all about; it's how we learn about the world.
---

As for the social status games, you're doing those too; you're just unaware of it. Consider. Why are you not trying to convince me that Escher is better than Dali? That would be outside this particular box, fo' sho'. What's the point of revealing all these personal details about yourself? You're staking a claim. Investing in your ideas. And playing social status games.

Games are not bad. Social status games are natural, and to engage in that behavior is healthy. To deny it's happening -- unless you're being ironic and humorous about it, and sometimes even then -- is where sickness creeps in. Or the opposite, focusing on the game so much you lose sight of the point, which is what I think you're trying to say. There's a world of difference, there. A third way is by getting locked into a mindset because of how much you invest into it; the mindset is good, therefore you're good, therefore the mindset is good, therefore you're good........ it can be almost impossible to dig out of. Religion is a testament to this. Social games are often positive for this, though; just as they can set you into an idea of things, they can shake you out of it if clinging too hard makes you lose your 'place'. Like a gun, neither good nor bad... just there.

Some related examples: It's unhealthy to get maddened by the abysmal response rate of first-time emails, and go on a bender. It's unhealthy to deny that the response rate is abysmal. Make mistakes, but don't keep making them. Try things out; sometimes they even work. Just play the game of life, with no attachment to the outcome. Enjoy it for what it is.
---

And if you other readers are really looking for someone, get offline and get involved in the world. Dating sites suck ass, for reasons related to that monkey behavior LadyN so delightfully put a name to.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 10:47:01 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
We learn everything emotionally. Abstract thought is impossible without emotional ties to other facts. Doesn't matter which emotion; we don't even have names for some of them, like 'the joy of discovering a pattern'... (Would that be patternalism?? heh.) But the emotions are there, inside every factoid, behind every abstraction.


Different individuals experience their emotions differently.  Some autistics have difficulty being emotionally engaged even with people they are close to, let alone with strangers.  My personal experience is that I tend to be "flatline" and muted, with limited access to my emotions.  I am usually unaware of feeling much of anything, and that is not something I would choose if I had a choice.  I do have emotions, but they're annoyingly difficult to access.  You seem to be terribly certain of what my internal experience "really" is; I don't have a full formal diagnosis at this time, but I do know that I have a better idea of what it feels like on the inside of my head than you do.


quote:

The idea that there is such a thing as 'emotionless' is a myth of pop culture. Blame Spock. Although he's a perfect example of putting the lie to the idea, seeing as how he ended up more emotional and sentimental than I can easily stomach in this last movie...


Vulcans are fictional.  Autism is not.  An autistic is not emotionless, but their emotions may be difficult for them to access and they may feel significantly dissociated.


quote:

So what you probably are referring to is something along the lines of 'you don't take it personally'. And while that's theoretically possible, I would disagree. You've made assumptions about my character based on my statements, and that's the essence of taking something personally... it's the exact behavior you say you don't do.


I don't actually experience assumptions about character, either yours or mine, as personal.  It's just more data.  I recognize that others do, and for most people this will be the very definition of taking it personally.


quote:

As for the social status games, you're doing those too; you're just unaware of it. Consider. Why are you not trying to convince me that Escher is better than Dali? That would be outside this particular box, fo' sho'. What's the point of revealing all these personal details about yourself? You're staking a claim. Investing in your ideas. And playing social status games.


I'm very interested and invested in the ideas and the information. Contrasting neurotypical thought processes with autistic thought processes is not only fascinating, it has a lot of practical application for me.   Push my buttons on this subject and I'll probably just keep talking in hopes of seining in some more comparative data.  I'll eventually quit if the fishing gets poor, unless I'm interested enough in my own thought processes that I'm willing to keep writing just to hear myself think. 

From my perspective, I've wandered over to have a conversation with someone who insists that what we're doing is playing basketball.  Now I'm rather nearsighted, so I can't actually see the court or the hoops.  I'm not reaching for the ball and I don't know where the hoops are, let alone the lines that define the court.  But this guy keeps dribbling around me shooting hoops, and he keeps saying that he and I are playing basketball together.  I shake my head, tap my forehead and chalk it up to neurotypical weirdness.  

From his perspective we're playing basketball, but I can't see the ball.  And mostly I think he is batshit crazy for insisting that's what we're doing.  I'm standing on the court because that's where he's standing.  In fact, that's where he lives.  He can't seem to stop playing basketball.  I'm only dimly aware that there is a basketball game going on around me, but I'm not actively trying to participate.  I'm shuffling around trying to avoid getting smacked by the ball I can't see while still trying to hold a meaningful conversation with the player.  It's not easy.


quote:

Games are not bad. Social status games are natural, and to engage in that behavior is healthy.


I'm sure it is, for people whose social perceptions actually work.  For people who are at massive disadvantage in playing because they can't see the ball moving, it is much less so.  Mostly it's an exercise in frustration, and we don't tend to notice the score anyhow because we can't see the scoreboard any better than we can see the ball.   What you are describing are functional strategies for neurotypicals and perpetually losing and frustrating ones for autistics.

I have difficulty perceiving nuances in social status.  It's mostly an abstract concept to me, not something I can clearly see or grasp.  It's hard to be motivated by something you can't really see.  The neurotypical brain devotes a huge chunk of resources to doing almost nothing else but perceiving social status, but if that part of your brain wiring is broken or being used for other things, you won't be well suited to playing games that require this type of perception in order to have reliable feedback of your performance. 


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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 11:29:39 PM   
DMFParadox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
I'm not reaching for the ball and I don't know where the hoops are, let alone the lines that define the court. But this guy keeps dribbling around me shooting hoops, and he keeps saying that he and I are playing basketball together. I shake my head, tap my forehead and chalk it up to neurotypical weirdness.

From his perspective we're playing basketball, but I can't see the ball.


Close.

What's happening, to extend your analogy, is that I'm saying "You're walking on a basketball court, watch out for the ball!" and you're saying "But I'm not playing basketball!" ...as if that denied the fact that you are, in fact, walking. And that the location is a basketball court.

"Hey, that's the ball!"

"But I'm not playing!"

"Why'd you throw it there?"

"Because I'm not playing!"

"But you aimed for the hoop!"

"Isn't that what you do on a basketball court?"

"But you said you're not playing!!"

"I'm not!"

"GRAAAHHHHHH!!"

At some point, you're not just oblivious, you're misinforming yourself.

< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 11/4/2010 11:34:32 PM >

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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/4/2010 11:42:03 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
What's happening, to extend your analogy, is that I'm saying "You're walking on a basketball court, watch out for that guy!" and you're saying "But I'm not playing basketball!" ...as if that denied the fact that you are, in fact, walking. And that the location is a basketball court.


Explain to me how it is possible to have any kind of interaction with someone and not be in their basketball court.  If they are the kind of person who can't stop playing basketball, that's basically impossible.  Even if I explain that I want to stand on the sidelines and not play the game, it doesn't usually stop them from dribbling the ball all over the place and even trying to pass it to me.  I can't see it, so for the most part I don't care what they do with the ball.  But every so often it's likely to smack me in the head because I won't see it coming.

And that is why I rarely spend voluntary social time with neurotypicals.  Very few of them know how to put the ball down and stop playing.


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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 5:35:44 AM   
DMFParadox


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

Explain to me how it is possible to have any kind of interaction with someone and not be in their basketball court.



god will this analogy never end. Ok, try this. What you're doing is akin to wearing a jersey, scoring points, catching passes, calling foul and demanding free throws, but saying that you shouldn't have to dribble because you don't understand the rules and therefore aren't playing the game.

You don't convince people to let you walk the ball that way. You sometimes convince them to explain the rules, and other times convince them to stop the game and play somewhere else. Depending on their level of patience.


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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 7:32:31 AM   
OttersSwim


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Status: offline 		Can I get some popcorn and a beer?  What?  Isn't this a game?  

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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 7:50:52 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
And that is why I rarely spend voluntary social time with neurotypicals.  Very few of them know how to put the ball down and stop playing.


Your reasons for spending little time with neurotypicals are roughly similar to the reasons why I spend little time with egomaniacs or paranoids. For me, they're a pointless vexation of the spirit.


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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 9:27:10 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox
god will this analogy never end. Ok, try this. What you're doing is akin to wearing a jersey, scoring points, catching passes, calling foul and demanding free throws, but saying that you shouldn't have to dribble because you don't understand the rules and therefore aren't playing the game.


I think I have a glimmering of your perspective.  You're trying to play basketball, and here's this clumsy retard on your court walking randomly around over the lines, waving their arms and making the ball bounce all over the place, without seeming to have a clue what they're doing.  It looks like they're trying to play basketball, but they won't play by your rules and they say they're not playing at all.  But you see them hitting the ball around.  If you're perceptive enough, you can tell they're severely nearsighted and can't actually see the ball or really notice what the other players are doing.  So what are they doing on your basketball court?  If they can't play, they should get the hell off the court. Except they can't, not if they want to talk to any of the players.  This court has no sidelines.  Does that more accurately reflect your perspective?

If you define "playing the game" as participating at all in a conversation or any type of human interaction with a personal goal in mind, then we're not really on the same page with our definitions.  My working definition of game playing involves the use of non literal communication, deceiving or misleading others about your intent or status, attempting to manipulate the behavior of others (eg, offering grooming to facilitate short term social alliances), actively seeking to increase your social status, and otherwise treating a conversation as other than a productive factual exchange with no hidden agenda. 

Visually impaired people don't learn to play basketball very well.  They can catch and throw the ball if it ends up in their hands, but they can't really see the effects of their throw.  Even if I wished to use emotional subtext to communicate, to deceive or manipulate others, or increase my social status, my impaired ability to perceive any of these things means that I largely avoid them when possible.  I have very little motivation to raise my social status when I cannot tell what that status is.  My primary goal in communication, to have a quality information exchange based on the value of the factual arguments presented, does not change whether I am a stranger to a group or whether I am well known to them and they have presumably assigned me some manner of social status.  I expect that the social experience does change for the group, but it's one of the things I can't easily perceive.  I don't usually know whether people like me or not, and I don't find it relevant to my primary goal in communication of having my arguments evaluated and discussed on their actual merits. 

It is impossible to avoid the games entirely if I want to have any sort of conversation or interaction with NT's, or for that matter if I want to function in mainstream society.  A smart AS person will try to figure out how to *pretend* they're playing the game long enough to move across the court without anyone noticing that they can't see the ball.  What they're not doing is seriously investing in the game or its results, even if their goal is human interaction.  It's difficult and seems fairly silly to be invested in results you can't see. 


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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 9:50:35 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

I think I have a glimmering of your perspective. You're trying to play basketball, and here's this clumsy retard on your court walking randomly around over the lines, waving their arms and making the ball bounce all over the place, without seeming to have a clue what they're doing. It looks like they're trying to play basketball, but they won't play by your rules and they say they're not playing at all. But you see them hitting the ball around. If you're perceptive enough, you can tell they're severely nearsighted and can't actually see the ball or really notice what the other players are doing. So what are they doing on your basketball court? If they can't play, they should get the hell off the court. Except they can't, not if they want to talk to any of the players. This court has no sidelines. Does that more accurately reflect your perspective?

If I'm getting this whole basketball analogy correct..He's saying your perceptive enough to call foul and all the other stuff...all the while pretending you don't know the rules and can't see the ball..all based on a self-diagnosis of autism.

Am I autistic as well because I don't always pick up on social cues or have the occasion where I don't quite get where someone is coming from??

I think you've deluded yourself into believing the stuff you say rather than face the fact that you're no different than the rest of us.That bothers you because you don't like what you see.

Busy as a bee drawing lines between you and the rest of the world...Maybe you need to feel unique..superior in some way..Who knows for sure. You maybe but you'll never admit to it because you'd rather have people believe that your some emotionless stoic like robot that nobody can touch.




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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 10:58:27 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Busy as a bee drawing lines between you and the rest of the world...Maybe you need to feel unique..superior in some way..Who knows for sure. You maybe but you'll never admit to it because you'd rather have people believe that your some emotionless stoic like robot that nobody can touch.


That is, sadly, a fairly standard NT response to a high functioning autistic who tries to explain what autism feels like.  It's part of what can make coping difficult; it's a nearly invisible handicap.  Learn to compensate and "pass" well enough, like many high functioning AS adults, and most people will never believe that you actually are impaired in your social perceptions.  They won't believe that you didn't maliciously or selfishly intend to do whatever it is you just did that caused them offense, because they are dead certain that you can see just like they can.  That tends to create its own set of difficulties while easing others.

But autism is for real, and while I don't have a formal dx for dissociation specifically, which is something I've been considering, I do have a formal dx of AS.  You're assigning an emotional agenda to what I'm communicating because like most people, you can't drop that basketball and you can't comprehend why anyone else would not be acting congruently with the social motives that are of core importance to you.

I'm neither emotionless nor particularly stoic. I do tend to have difficulty accessing what I feel or being consciously aware of it.  I wish I didn't.  If I regret anything about having AS, it would be this.  My partners deserve a lot more authentic emotional engagement from me, but they don't always get it because quite a bit of the time it's just not there to engage.  And that sucks, but we compromise and compensate.  I think we do very well.  But I still wish we didn't have to.

Believe absolutely nothing I've said if you prefer.  If you are actually interested in knowing the facts about communicating and coping through autism and what it feels like from the inside, do some outside reading from sources you think you can trust.  If you'd prefer to believe that everyone thinks and feels the same and that I must be making things up, there's nothing I can do to stop you from making nasty comments or rude conclusions. 


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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 11:05:18 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

I'm neither emotionless nor particularly stoic. I do tend to have difficulty accessing what I feel or being consciously aware of it. I wish I didn't. If I regret anything about having AS, it would be this. My partners deserve a lot more authentic emotional engagement from me, but they don't always get it because quite a bit of the time it's just not there to engage. And that sucks, but we compromise and compensate. I think we do very well. But I still wish we didn't have to.

Believe absolutely nothing I've said if you prefer. If you are actually interested in knowing the facts about communicating and coping through autism and what it feels like from the inside, do some outside reading from sources you think you can trust. If you'd prefer to believe that everyone thinks and feels the same and that I must be making things up, there's nothing I can do to stop you from making nasty comments or rude conclusions.

I don't believe what your saying because your actions aren't lining up with your words like Paradox has stated prior.

Were my comments rude and nasty? How could you tell?


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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 11:47:17 AM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I don't believe what your saying because your actions aren't lining up with your words like Paradox has stated prior.


In which respects?  In my ability to compensate for impaired social perception with data gathering and puzzle solving?  That's what adult AS folks do, and that's part of why the experience can be so frustrating when communicating with people who do function on "normal" social wiring.  Adult AS has been referred to by some specialists in the field as an "invisible wheelchair".  Unless people who know what it's like from the inside speak out about their experience - and sadly, even when we do - no one can see it.  And so they don't believe it's there.

I have a mild prosopagnosia, another statistically common accompaniment to AS.  One of the reasons I don't watch television is I cannot keep track of actors from scene to scene if they change their clothes, unless they have a distinctive feature that doesn't require facial recognition to remember.   This puts me in potentially awkward social situations when I fail to recognize someone in real life.  I've developed techniques to compensate that work pretty well under most circumstances, so not many people ever notice.  But when I do fail at compensating, it can seriously hurt or offend people who believe that my failure to recognize them is a social snub.  It looks to them like something I did on purpose.


quote:

Were my comments rude and nasty? How could you tell?


Specifically the statement that I was pretending, eg, not telling the truth. You are saying that I am a liar.  That fits quite comfortably into the category of rude.  Do you disagree?


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RE: How many times should one make a request. - 11/5/2010 12:16:25 PM   
Icarys


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Status: offline 		Lying might be a little harsh..I'm not sure you do what you do intentionally with malice.

You seem to be picking up on all kinds of cues..especially verbally as in my rudeness towards you. (I thought High Functioning Autistic's had problems with language in general yet here you are doing a better job at it than most people on this board.)That and the drawing of lines I've seen you do on other occasions lead me to believe that you might be a little delusional or maybe using the autism as a crutch in some way for other areas of your life that it may not affect quite so much.


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