RE: Vaccines (Full Version)

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angelikaJ -> RE: Vaccines (10/25/2010 8:35:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

Have you had the antibody test for HPV? Most HPV infections have no symptoms. The overwhelming majority of sexually active adults have had at least one HPV infection.


Hey DomKen,

My understanding is that HPV is one of the tests done during all pap smears. So I'd say most sexually active women DO know--symptoms or not.

I wonder about the wisdom of Guardasil vaccinations. I have left it up to my daughters. But vaccination against HPV (and some cervical cancers) really is an individual choice. This bug is not like whooping cough, where parents may be risking the lives of other children.

Some parents may not value the lives of other children. But protecting all children is absolutely the job of society.

January


2 of the strains that Gardisil protects against: HPV 16 and HPV 18 are the ones most commonly associated with most cervical cancers.
However, it isn't just cervical cancers. It has now been determined that those same strains cause oral, throat, anal and penile cancers as well.




Arpig -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 10:56:51 AM)

I have 2 sons with autistic spectrum disorders and 1 daughter with absolutely no such issues. My daughter and 1 son were vaccinated according to the schedule and the 3rd was not (we were scared off by the stories). If vaccines cause autism then how come my vaccinated daughter has no symptoms and my unvaccinated son does? I'll tell you why....its bullshit!! 




January -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 11:25:50 AM)

quote:

The test for HPV antibodies is called Digene and it is not routinely part of the pap smear although it is becoming more common.


It's a routine part of my pap smear. But not yours, apparently? I'm sure where you are getting your data, but your claim that an overwhelming majority have HPV is hyperbole. Perhaps in the younger population. Maybe.

quote:

HPV is like Pertussis. If the vast majority of people are vaccinated against it the strains in question ill be unable to spread and those who cannot be vaccinated will be protected by herd immunity just like all the other vaccine controllable diseases.


Nope. The disease is transferred by sexual activity. In order for HPV to be eradicated, MEN would have to be vaccinated, too. There's no such thing as a herd composed of just females. 'Kay?

January





DesFIP -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 12:29:36 PM)

They are now beginning to vaccinate boys. My son just received the first of three. 




angelikaJ -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 12:31:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

The test for HPV antibodies is called Digene and it is not routinely part of the pap smear although it is becoming more common.


It's a routine part of my pap smear. But not yours, apparently? I'm sure where you are getting your data, but your claim that an overwhelming majority have HPV is hyperbole. Perhaps in the younger population. Maybe.

quote:

HPV is like Pertussis. If the vast majority of people are vaccinated against it the strains in question ill be unable to spread and those who cannot be vaccinated will be protected by herd immunity just like all the other vaccine controllable diseases.


Nope. The disease is transferred by sexual activity. In order for HPV to be eradicated, MEN would have to be vaccinated, too. There's no such thing as a herd composed of just females. 'Kay?

January




http://hpv.emedtv.com/hpv/hpv-statistics.html

"Health experts estimate that there are more cases of genital HPV infection than any other sexually transmitted disease (STD) in the United States. According to the American Social Health Association, approximately 5.5 million new cases of sexually transmitted HPV infections are reported every year, though 6.2 million new infections are estimated to occur. At least 20 million people in the United States are already infected -- most of them may not even know it.

Current statistics on HPV indicate that at least 50 percent of sexually active men and women acquire a genital HPV infection at some point in their lives. By age 50, at least 80 percent of women will have been infected with genital HPV infection."

The CDC states that "at least 50% of sexually active men and women get it at some point in their lives." (bolding mine)
http://www.cdc.gov/std/HPV/STDFact-HPV.htm





tazzygirl -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 12:39:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have 2 sons with autistic spectrum disorders and 1 daughter with absolutely no such issues. My daughter and 1 son were vaccinated according to the schedule and the 3rd was not (we were scared off by the stories). If vaccines cause autism then how come my vaccinated daughter has no symptoms and my unvaccinated son does? I'll tell you why....its bullshit!! 


Add to that... these parents who are proclaiming their right to not vaccinate their children.... they were all vaccinated themselves ... how many of them have symptoms of autism.




subkatslut -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 1:07:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have 2 sons with autistic spectrum disorders and 1 daughter with absolutely no such issues. My daughter and 1 son were vaccinated according to the schedule and the 3rd was not (we were scared off by the stories). If vaccines cause autism then how come my vaccinated daughter has no symptoms and my unvaccinated son does? I'll tell you why....its bullshit!! 


I can't say whether I believe there is a link or not but using the argument that something didn't affect one person means it doesn't affect anyone else is kind of lame.

We all react differently to all sorts of medications and vaccines. That would be like me saying I can eat peanuts with no reaction so it can't be possible someone else does. Or why does my daughter swell with mosquito bites yet I barely itch?

Our bodies are different. Our genetics are slightly different. Along with any other factors that could be happenstance with the timing. A minor infection, a weakened immune system at that time, lack of sleep, stress...you name it.

There may not be a link but this is the poorest explanation in refuting it that one could come up with.





stef -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 1:18:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subkatslut

I can't say whether I believe there is a link or not but using the argument that something didn't affect one person means it doesn't affect anyone else is kind of lame.

Ignoring the scientific data that says vaccines do not increase autism rates is even more lame.  Penn and Teller say it better than I can here.

~stef




angelikaJ -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 1:44:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I have 2 sons with autistic spectrum disorders and 1 daughter with absolutely no such issues. My daughter and 1 son were vaccinated according to the schedule and the 3rd was not (we were scared off by the stories). If vaccines cause autism then how come my vaccinated daughter has no symptoms and my unvaccinated son does? I'll tell you why....its bullshit!! 


Add to that... these parents who are proclaiming their right to not vaccinate their children.... they were all vaccinated themselves ... how many of them have symptoms of autism.



That is what I find most interesting.
It is a logic point that everyone who points their fingers at vaccines seems to miss.

One of the reasons for the "increased rates" is that prior to certain criteria becoming standardized many of the kids now diagnosed with autism would have been previously diagnosed as being "mentally retarded".





subkatslut -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 2:18:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef


Ignoring the scientific data that says vaccines do not increase autism rates is even more lame. 

~stef



Yes because after all scientific data is always accurate. Has never once been scientifically deemed safe and sound only to later be scientifically proven not so safe and sound and revised or completely abandoned.

Besides my point wasn't a comment as to whether it's true or not but to the logic used to defend it. If you have "x" and "y" and both come into contact with "a" and one has a negative reaction and one does not react at all that doesn't mean "a" may not have played a role...merely that "x" and "y" reacted differently and that "a" could affect some but not all.




subkatslut -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 2:26:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

It is a logic point that everyone who points their fingers at vaccines seems to miss.

One of the reasons for the "increased rates" is that prior to certain criteria becoming standardized many of the kids now diagnosed with autism would have been previously diagnosed as being "mentally retarded".




Well and no doubt that is true. There are many disorders that were once thrown into either mental or insane categories due to pure ignorance about them. Fortunately science has changed their opinions and realized what they once believed to be right was wrong and we are now better able to help people with disorders such as autism.

But as you stated criteria being standardized is but one reason. The rate of increase is still growing and they still don't have any real explanations or answers I don't think.




angelikaJ -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 2:39:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subkatslut


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

It is a logic point that everyone who points their fingers at vaccines seems to miss.

One of the reasons for the "increased rates" is that prior to certain criteria becoming standardized many of the kids now diagnosed with autism would have been previously diagnosed as being "mentally retarded".




Well and no doubt that is true. There are many disorders that were once thrown into either mental or insane categories due to pure ignorance about them. Fortunately science has changed their opinions and realized what they once believed to be right was wrong and we are now better able to help people with disorders such as autism.

But as you stated criteria being standardized is but one reason. The rate of increase is still growing and they still don't have any real explanations or answers I don't think.



And the suspected culprit: Thimerosal has not been used as a preservative in routine childhood vaccines since 2001 with the exception of some flu vaccines.

So, the mercury preservative is out and rates are still increasing.

And you are right, there has to be a reason or reasons for the rise.

Someday researchers will figure out what it is or which dominos trigger whatever is responsible.




subkatslut -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 2:47:07 PM)

Going back to gardisil and more on topic with the OP's question.

I don't know if it's one that is required but it's strongly recommended as necessary. Since HPV is sexually transmitted why would anyone who is not sexually active have a need for it? Since it can also be tested and there are far bigger diseases to worry about when engaging in sex is it not an option to also test for HPV before fluid bonding with a partner? Much like AIDS?

I ask because even if it is safe it is never 100% effective. No vaccine is. That's proven. Yet most people assume and proceed as if they are not at risk. It gives a false sense of security. Is it also not a viable alternative should one not be comfortable with the vaccine? Does one's choice one way or the other make them right or wrong?

As for the age it's recommended. See at 9, kids should not be sexually active. If you feel the need to worry about giving a child that young the vaccine then maybe you have bigger things to worry about. Gardisil may help prevent one disease but there are far bigger problems you probably should be worried about and addressing. Just saying.




angelikaJ -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 3:02:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subkatslut

Going back to gardisil and more on topic with the OP's question.

I don't know if it's one that is required but it's strongly recommended as necessary. Since HPV is sexually transmitted why would anyone who is not sexually active have a need for it? Since it can also be tested and there are far bigger diseases to worry about when engaging in sex is it not an option to also test for HPV before fluid bonding with a partner? Much like AIDS?

I ask because even if it is safe it is never 100% effective. No vaccine is. That's proven. Yet most people assume and proceed as if they are not at risk. It gives a false sense of security. Is it also not a viable alternative should one not be comfortable with the vaccine?

As for the age it's recommended. See at 9, kids should not be sexually active. If you feel the need to worry about giving a child that young the vaccine then maybe you have bigger things to worry about. Gardisil may help prevent one disease but there are far bigger problems you probably should be worried about and addressing. Just saying.


There is a test for women.
There is no screening test yet for men/boys.

No, at 9 kids generally aren't sexually active.
The vaccine is suggested ages 9-11.

Sometimes the subsequent doses get missed.
This gives time for catch up.

They are catching HPV infections in girls who are 14.
Generally the ones they catch are genital warts, as those are visible.
But it is not uncommon for someone to have more than one strain.





DesFIP -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 5:39:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subkatslut

But as you stated criteria being standardized is but one reason. The rate of increase is still growing and they still don't have any real explanations or answers I don't think.



Actually a study in Israel showed a positive link to increased paternal age and rates of autism. Men above 40 had much higher rates of autistic children to those having kids later in life. Since there most men don't marry until past 30, it's not at all uncommon for the later kids to have autism. I see this among my cousins where in a family with five kids, only the last two have it. One high functioning, one not.




VideoAdminAlpha -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 7:07:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Have you tried messaging a moderator? Perhaps one of them might be willing to delete the posts, if any of them can be found.



It is against policy to delete posts, but thank you for offering our services, we dont mind when ANYONE messages us, no matter what time of day.




DomKen -> RE: Vaccines (10/26/2010 7:46:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

The test for HPV antibodies is called Digene and it is not routinely part of the pap smear although it is becoming more common.


It's a routine part of my pap smear. But not yours, apparently? I'm sure where you are getting your data, but your claim that an overwhelming majority have HPV is hyperbole. Perhaps in the younger population. Maybe.

It is not hyperbole it is simple fact.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050111121630.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/64137.php
http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-cervical-cancer-coalition/discussion/rate-of-hpv-infection-women-with-1-partner/




DesFIP -> RE: Vaccines (10/27/2010 10:37:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminAlpha
It is against policy to delete posts, but thank you for offering our services, we dont mind when ANYONE messages us, no matter what time of day.


Not getting enough mail, gorgeous?
I'm sure we can all write unrequited love letters then.




tazzygirl -> RE: Vaccines (10/27/2010 3:42:24 PM)

Perhaps this might help some realize that with the broadening of a category of mental health, there will be an increase in the number of those who fit that category.

That the number of new autism diagnoses is dramatically increasing is generally accepted and not a point of debate. The historical rate of autism is about 4 per 10,000 and the more recent estimates are in the range of 15-20 per 10,000 (30-60 per 10,000 for all pervasive developmental disorders of which autism is one type). (Rutter 2005) The controversy is about what is causing this rise in diagnoses. There are two basic hypotheses: 1) That the true incidence of autism is rising due to an environmental cause, 2) That the rise in incidence is mostly or completely an artifact of increased surveillance and broadening of the definition of autism. These two hypotheses make specific predictions, and there is much evidence to bring to bear on their predictions – this recent study only being the latest.


The confusion about the epidemiology of autism is one common to scientific medicine. Whenever historical comparisons are made it is possible that changing definitions and practices over time will distort those comparisons. This is why medical scientists are often reluctant to change nomenclature (disease names) and definitions – doing so immediately renders the literature obsolete. All subsequent literature must now have a footnote. But the progress of our understanding of biology and disease makes such changes unavoidable.

In the 1990′s the diagnosis of autism was changed to autism spectrum disorder (ASD) – the new name reflecting the changing concept of autism to include a broader spectrum of symptoms, including much more subtle manifestations. In particular a diagnostic entity known as Aspergers syndrome, which is essentially a subtle manifestation of autism features, was classified as part of ASD. Any time you broaden a category the number of individuals that fit into that category is likely to increase.

Autism researcher Eric Fombonne found that:

Recent epidemiological surveys of autistic disorder and other PDDs have heightened awareness of and concern about the prevalence of these disorders; however, differences in survey methodology, particularly changes in case definition and case identification over time, have made comparisons between surveys difficult to perform and interpret. (Fombonne 2005)

In addition to the broadening of the diagnosis, the social and medical network supporting ASD dramatically increased. There has been increased efforts at surveillance – scouring the community for hidden cases of autism. Further, parents have become much more accepting of the diagnosis, which may partly be due to the fact that is some states the label with facilitate access to special services. And clinicians have become more knowledgeable of ASD so are better able to make the diagnosis, even in subtle cases.

Rutter, in order to test this latter hypothesis that increased diagnostic rates were due largely to changes in diagnosis and surveillance, reviewed literature that contained sufficient information to assess true historical rates of autism. He found that applying modern criteria to these historical records yields similar rates of diagnoses: 30-60 per 10,000. Taylor did a similar review and found the following:

The recorded prevalence of autism has increased considerably in recent years. This reflects greater recognition, with changes in diagnostic practice associated with more trained diagnosticians; broadening of diagnostic criteria to include a spectrum of disorder; a greater willingness by parents and educationalists to accept the label (in part because of entitlement to services); and better recording systems, among other factors. (Taylor 2006)

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=95




Tantriqu -> RE: Vaccines (10/27/2010 4:43:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

Penn and Teller say it better than I can here.

~stef



Awesome-o, Stef! Thanks!
I hope they do one about herd immunity. With rockets.
Good for them.
Fuck that vaccine/autism bullshit, and not in a good way, and fuck that UK MD who funded the anti-vaccination campaign to create a profitable market for his own failed vaccine!




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