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Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 3:47:18 AM   
Aneirin


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I am just wondering here, the ills that were South Africa, apatheid and all it entailed, the world has helped to destroy what was happening there via world condemnation and sanctions. Now it is the turn of Israel to recieive world condemnation and other actions for it's regime, so as it seems the world likes to pick less than ideal countries to change, so I  am wondering, which country/regime is next ?

But it interests me to notice the countries that fall under scrutiny tend to be civilised but of little use to the rest of the world, in that they are just societies that provide nothing that is to the world's advantage, so perhaps a safe bet for worldwide attention.

But what of the countries that have what the world wants, you know commodities like minerals,oil and gas and the regimes that exist there, would the world be so brave I wonder for there are many societies less than ideal sitting on the wealth the big players and their sycophants want, but to ensure they own portion, they leave these countries problems alone.

Iraq I believe was a special case, Iraq I believe it was always intended to be beaten by outside forces, all the big players wanted was a good enough reason to invade. But why are places chosen to be invaded or bombed into submission when others just sanctions and world condemnation seem to work, or is it if the latter options do not work, the next stage is military force dependant of course on what the country holds that is of value to those who act. Say for instance sanctions on South Africa had not worked and Apatheid still existed, would military force from outside ever happen  as sanctions do not help the world that seeks markets to export to ?

Is there a difference between those whom the world condemns, a difference based upon what the country has to offer and with that a different level of attention ?

So, on one level we have had South Africa and now the world's eyes are on Israel to receive a verbal bashing, as those countries are just people, nothing really there of use to those who commit wealth and man power to sort out, on that same level, which countries does anyone think is next once Israel is quelled for it will be, I cannot see the world backing down on this one ?

But on another level, the level that seems to require military intervention, undoubtedly countries that have something to control, Iraq was one, Afghanistan is a possible due to the mineral reserves, which country is next ? Iran ?

Now as I have if I have identified two different levels of attention, could it be the levels are intentional so that humanitarian need becomes the reason for trade conquests and with that is the military now what it always was, a tool to enable the merchants to expand their empire. But one wonders if the merchants are the people, or is it as it has always been the poor fight for ideals whilst the controllers reap the benefits.


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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 5:16:30 AM   
Moonhead


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I'd question that Israel provides nothing of value to the rest of the world. If that hadn't been there since the mid '40s, distracting the battier shi'ite regimes, how long do you think the more progressive countries in the middle east would have lasted? The shitheads who run Syria and Saudi Arabia would have knocked over Qatar the second the king there started to talk about giving women the vote. Having everybody who wishes it was still the fourteenth century hating a common enemy they can't do anything about has simplified matters there a lot.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 11:05:07 AM   
Termyn8or


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"Now it is the turn of Israel to recieive world condemnation "

Yes it is.

T

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 12:00:03 PM   
Moonhead


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Why should Israel give any more of a shit about that than your own country does?
It isn't like they have to keep China sweet or anything, after all.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 12:34:07 PM   
kdsub


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First Israel can not be condemned without Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine being condemned. They are tied together in their violence none more or less guilty then the others.

World politics and economics force different countries to take sides and will block any world wide condemnations.

As for Iraq.. Perhaps they were invaded because they were the direct cause of millions of deaths over the last 25 years. They tortured, gassed, poisoned, murdered there own citizens as well as hundreds of thousands of Iranians and Kuwait’s .

Is the above bad enough for you are or you so blind you can’t see more than one side to a conflict.

Butch

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 1:01:24 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

First Israel can not be condemned without Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine being condemned. They are tied together in their violence none more or less guilty then the others.


How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.

quote:

As for Iraq.. Perhaps they were invaded because they were the direct cause of millions of deaths over the last 25 years. They tortured, gassed, poisoned, murdered there own citizens as well as hundreds of thousands of Iranians and Kuwait’s .


Ah - that's the hind-sight reason - the reason given when it turned out that the real reason Iraq was destroyed was completely bogus; based on lies muttered by two nation's leaders on a God-given mission. Bonus points if you can name the two leaders and identify the lies they used to justify the invasion. I'll give you a clue. The reason involved something that didn't exist. (EDIT: Not 'God'. Just to be clear.)

quote:

Is the above bad enough for you are or you so blind...


Exactly.



< Message edited by hertz -- 11/24/2010 1:41:35 PM >

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 1:04:44 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.

Really?
So when are you guys returning all of that land you seized from the Indians, then?

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 1:28:45 PM   
hertz


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I meant in the context of the Middle East - you specifically named 'Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine', and Israel. Of course historically other countries have stolen land.

< Message edited by hertz -- 11/24/2010 1:29:23 PM >

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 1:28:58 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.

Really?
So when are you guys returning all of that land you seized from the Indians, then?


i do love seeing yanks squirm when asked that, although H is too nice a man for it.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 1:32:51 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

I meant in the context of the Middle East - you specifically named 'Iran, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine', and Israel. Of course historically other countries have stolen land.

Such as the two attempts Egypt have made to seize Israel. The second one was how Israel's borders were extended in the first place. If memory serves, Syria were in on that as well, and are quite keen to annex Palestine after the evil Zionists have all been wiped out.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 1:38:18 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Such as the two attempts Egypt have made to seize Israel. The second one was how Israel's borders were extended in the first place. If memory serves, Syria were in on that as well, and are quite keen to annex Palestine after the evil Zionists have all been wiped out.


Re-write history much?

BTW - I am not an American.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 1:40:08 PM   
hertz


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mistrake...

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 2:37:56 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Such as the two attempts Egypt have made to seize Israel. The second one was how Israel's borders were extended in the first place. If memory serves, Syria were in on that as well, and are quite keen to annex Palestine after the evil Zionists have all been wiped out.


Re-write history much?

BTW - I am not an American.



What I find strange is that three English (AFAIK as based in the English areas of UK) males post up all the threads about Israel on here - most prolifically Hertz but also Northern Gent and Anerin. Now I’m not suggesting all English people hate Israel as Politesub and Moonhead clearly have a vastly more balanced approach but it is a bit strange nonetheless considering the large number of nationalities that post on this forum! There are threads started by these people on a quite frequent basis and notably this happens while Israeli-Palestinian issues are relatively quiet in the news. It should also be noted that no one on here starts threads that are positive of Israel – at least not in the last few months anyway. People like myself are only trying to redress what is pretty extreme blatant pro-Palestinian propaganda.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 3:43:05 PM   
Aneirin


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Bingo ! GOTCHA,

I thought you would be here,

it is as if you scan the columns searching for any mention of the Promised Land and there look to see who is involved so you can wade in and isolate those whom you have a grudge with to make yourself look shiny in their midst.

Your posting style comes across as slimy and look at me, it is akin to a politician or a lawyer who in reality cares nothing for what they collate and surmise and spew back to their peers, but just wish to be seen as the say on matters, just like a lord of the assembly.

But,did you actually read the topic I posted, or did you just assume it was anti Israel, because I had posted it ?

If you did read it, I bet it came over as a dissapointment that it was not what you thought it was, but you just had to say something, something that has FA to do with the question I asked.

FuckinTroll was funny, you are not.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 4:06:18 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Such as the two attempts Egypt have made to seize Israel. The second one was how Israel's borders were extended in the first place. If memory serves, Syria were in on that as well, and are quite keen to annex Palestine after the evil Zionists have all been wiped out.


Re-write history much?

BTW - I am not an American.


Not noticably, no. The UN recognised that Israel's borders were extended after the six day war. Whether they should have is a whole other issue, but the territories Israel currently occupies, it has a rather better claim to than we have to Northern Ireland.

I beg your pardon: whenever somebody on the internet starts using Israel as an excuse to come out with a load of obnoxious and as often as not antisemtic blather about the beastly landgrabbing jews fucking over the poor innocent arabs who want to exterminate them, I assume that they're American. The John Birch society was big on that crap forty years before the BNP existed, after all.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to hertz)
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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 6:36:20 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Bingo ! GOTCHA,

I thought you would be here,

it is as if you scan the columns searching for any mention of the Promised Land and there look to see who is involved so you can wade in and isolate those whom you have a grudge with to make yourself look shiny in their midst.

Your posting style comes across as slimy and look at me, it is akin to a politician or a lawyer who in reality cares nothing for what they collate and surmise and spew back to their peers, but just wish to be seen as the say on matters, just like a lord of the assembly.

But,did you actually read the topic I posted, or did you just assume it was anti Israel, because I had posted it ?

If you did read it, I bet it came over as a dissapointment that it was not what you thought it was, but you just had to say something, something that has FA to do with the question I asked.

FuckinTroll was funny, you are not.



Anerin I wasn’t going to reply because you clearly have lost the run of yourself but would still like to say that your attempts to criticise are becoming comical. I would use stronger language but must try to remain as civil as possible. So my posting style comes across as “slimy” – that is a subjective value judgement. In reply I would have to say that your posts are almost always absurdly incoherent as if you have only the barest grasp of your native tongue. If I see something I disagree with strongly I take them to task by breaking up their arguments. There is nothing wrong with that – this is a forum after all. You repeatedly talk crap on here, and baselessly attack others who disagree but whinge on when anybody challenges you as I have done. This is a forum so get used to people disagreeing with you ducky.

Do not make out that I’m just on here to win debates. I happen to care a lot about Israel in part because so few others defend it against hate filled individuals like yourself. Yes I read your opening post and it was critical of Israel as you lumped it in with Apartheid South Africa as if it was a given. Granted I post on here a lot but I don’t post on here at every turn and have never started any threads about Israel. I just try to put a plug in shit-talkers like yourself because the poison your lot spout is actually harming people in a very real way. I expect you have posted quite prolifically on the Israel threads too so it is a one of your stupid double standards in objecting to me doing so too. Similarly, as I said on the other thread, you have criticised me on various threads for using the term “anti-Semitism” as if the word is always illegitimate whilst ignoring others who use terms like racist and bigot for the simple reason that they agree with your stance whilst I do not. It wouldn’t surprise me if you want the term anti-Semitic completely struck from the dictionary – now you are saying I’m a troll as if I have no right to disagree.

I will also make the point that a thread does not have to stick rigidly to the subject matter. The topic here was related as another mentioned the nationality of one of the posters and I replied by stating that all the shit stirring pro-Palestinian thread starters on here are from the UK which I think is significant.

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 6:42:41 PM   
kdsub


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If they stop lobbing rockets then maybe Israel would not need a buffer... and exactly where in history do you draw the line of what belongs to who. There is plenty of blame to go around and if you or others try to just blame Israel there will never be peace in the area.

quote:

Ah - that's the hind-sight reason - the reason given when it turned out that the real reason Iraq was destroyed was completely bogus; based on lies muttered by two nation's leaders on a God-given mission. Bonus points if you can name the two leaders and identify the lies they used to justify the invasion. I'll give you a clue. The reason involved something that didn't exist. (EDIT: Not 'God'. Just to be clear.)


What a bunch of crap the above accusation is… prove that they knew there were no weapons…show where there was or is a benefit to the US for the war? You are the one using hindsight not me…You are just easily manipulated by propaganda machines. Look through all your bogymen sites and show proof instead of childish accusations. Remember it was not just the Republican administration that attacked Iraq Clinton did it as well.

But I was against the war myself… I believe we were not attacked directly or indirectly by Iraq and we were over-reacting and unnecessarily putting our soldiers at risk…but.. I think it was a tragic honest mistake that has cost too many lives.

Butch

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 8:00:48 PM   
MasterNJ20


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I also personally disagree with the war in Iraq and many of Bush's policies. However I do not believe that Bush was A) Evil or B) Incompetent. He wasn't our best president by far and was president during some tough times. I feel he was almost equivalent to Hoover. A man who during decent or good times could do well for the country, but during distress was quite paralyzed.

Also feel quite bad that the UN is quite literally trying to pick apart Israel. 80% of all human rights resolutions in 2010 were against Israel, Israel was mentioned as a humanitarian crisis that needed attention while Darfur was not.

May I note that during Operation Cast lead the number of civilians killed per soldier killed by Israel was lower than the average of all wars in 1900's, lower than the average all wars in 1990's, lower than NATO's kill ratio in urban warfare.

People need to stop *focusing* on relatively minor human rights issues. I believe the international community should stop picking apart Israel and focus on real human rights issues such as Darfur which it is willing to IGNORE. The crimes committed by Israel should be addressed on the negotiating table with the Palestinians since both sides have committed crimes and they should work out compensations for all of them between themselves.

When the UN is willing to address legitimate human rights issues equally I cannot respect what it does around the world. Situations like Darfur are far more vile than any western country commits and yet it is not listed as a human rights issue to be watched by the UN http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/11/23/ignores-haiti-darfur-points-fingers-israel/

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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 8:35:02 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz
How so? Only Israel has stolen, and continues to steal, lands belonging to others.

Really?
So when are you guys returning all of that land you seized from the Indians, then?


i do love seeing yanks squirm when asked that, although H is too nice a man for it.


Since when is hertz a yank?


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RE: Ok, Israel, whos'e next ? - 11/24/2010 8:59:54 PM   
kdsub


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OK I want it all back...I've two grandparents Cherokee... My ancestors took land from other groups of people to claim the same homeland that Europeans took from them... The very Europeans who took the land from the Indians took land in their own homeland from other groups...No group or civilization on this earth is innocent of conquest of those less powerful or less advanced. You me everyone on the boards have benefited from this conquest and therefore we are all equally guilty if guilt must be assigned.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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