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RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 8:07:29 AM

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Just out of interest, Butch, can you imagine the shitfit a few of the yanks on here would throw if a UK poster stated that they had no idea about how the subject of a thread was handled, then came out with some generalised blather from a parochial viewpoint quite a distance from the matter at hand?

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RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 8:15:39 AM

kdsub

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It never stopped you brits did it....

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 9:29:15 AM

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http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2010/10/should_we_be_pa another thread worth reading.

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RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 10:25:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It never stopped you brits did it....

News to me. I try to stay out of subjects I know fuck all about. Jumping in like that strikes me as far more of an Americanism than a British thing, if you'll forgive me: the cucky twins and poopey are yours, not ours, dig?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 10:43:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Not quite: it just became cheaper to import it than to pay people to dig it up. The political thing was more down to the wicked witch seizing on that as an excuse to pick a fight with one of the country's most powerful unions and destroy it, though. That's true enough.
Of course, demand and price for coal has risen since the turn of the '90s.

Thatcher wasnt to blame, Labour leaders had tried to curb the unions and failed, as did Heath. The following fact gets overlooked, the coal industry had been in steep decline since 1915. The end was the development of alternative sources for power. Scargill stating he would bring down the Tories, was the nail in the coffin, you cant let unions run the country, period

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 10:49:10 AM

kdsub

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My but you are on a high horse today...I see you commenting on all things US and I hate to say it but I often classify you right along with the other fanatics on this board... you just have an opposite view point... But I unlike you always give you respect and the benefit of the doubt.

Now how are my comments not in align with the op's thread. I simply pointed out similar statements made in America and the reasons for them. I was not judging one way or the other your system…just pointing out similarities.

You complain about generalizations… I’ve never understood this complaint. What happens in general and not specific cases is the true result of actions.

In the US alterations were made to the system to discourage this behavior. These changes were not considered conservative or liberal just common sense. And suggesting that perhaps if the behaviors had a common cause you may want to make some of the same changes.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/30/2010 10:54:39 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 10:54:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

My but you are on a high horse today...I see you commenting on all things US and I hate to say it but I often classify you right along with the other fanatics on this board... But I unlike you always give you respect and the benefit of the doubt.

Now how are my comments not in align with the op's thread. I simply pointed out similar statements made in America and the reasons for them. I was not judging one way or the other your system…just pointing out similarities.

You complain about generalizations… I’ve never understood this complaint. What happens in general and not specific cases is the true result of actions.

In the US alterations were made to the system to discourage this behavior. These changes were not considered conservative or liberal just common sense. And suggesting that perhaps if the behaviors had a common cause you may want to make some of the same changes.

Butch

Most of the posters on here are American, hence most of the political discussion is about your hilarious system. Maybe I'm giving myself a bit too much credit, but I flatter myself that I have a slightly better grasp of how that works than you seem to have on the British welfare state. Sorry.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 10:57:56 AM

kdsub

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No... no fanatic comments or your part...lol.. And I'm sure you do know more about your system... you need to read the comments I made instead of adding intent to them in your closed mind.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 11:43:22 AM

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You're accusing me of adding intent to your comments while claiming that you can read my mind?
Cute.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 12:06:20 PM

kdsub

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I'm accusing you of making no sense. ..and I could care less about your mind or lack of it. It is my statements in my first post you seem to have trouble with... A statement not even directed to you but to Aneirin. It had no mention of your posts and did not criticize your knowledge or statements.

If you want to find someone to fight with go slap your dog or something then come back to the discussion after cleaning yourself up and the chip is off your shoulder.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 12:08:19 PM

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I think you're projecting a bit, sweetie.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 11/30/2010 5:34:44 PM

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From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2010/10/should_we_be_pa another thread worth reading.

Thanks- that is an interesting discussion, and it was heartening to read that disagreements can be had without breaking down to the usual tooth and claw fur fights that such subjects bring forth elsewhere.

Interesting points from the POV of women, mothers, those who are to be hit and some cases hit hard by something that really does not make a great deal of sense beyond the first steps in dismantling the welfare state some think we have become.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 5:55:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There was a perception and in some cases reality where the system was encouraging and rewarding women on welfare to have children out of wedlock. Women were having children for money but not marrying the fathers. This was increasing the population of welfare children at the expense of the tax payer at a time when middleclass families were decreasing in size because of the tax and economic burden. Perhaps the same is happening in your country.

If so I find his comments insensitive but not necessary incorrect. It should be a wakeup call to you as it was to us and not taken as racism.

Butch

We know that some women get pregnant for calculated reasons (state handouts) but others get pregnant by accident and those women also need state handouts. Some women lose their jobs or their partner walks out. Should we penalize all single mothers on benefit?
What about married couples that keep having more and more babies whilst living on welfare?

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RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 9:07:19 AM

kdsub

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Hi allthatjaz

I am in no way suggesting you do away with your welfare system...civilized people must help each other in times of need. HERE is a link I found with information on some of the changes we made to our laws to discourage abuse but still aid those that needed it.

As I was telling Moonhead I have no idea how your system works but I was pointing our similar complaints and criticism expressed in the US to our system. I was suggesting IF the problems were the same perhaps some of the changes we made may work in yours.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 9:33:07 AM

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From: Tamaris
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I find it is always a safe option for the mighty to attack those that cannot defend themselves as the reason for anything they perceive as being a failure, you will notice, there is always someone to blame, someone, a sector of society where the finger is pointed, I ask, just what does that say about our society ?

Failures are not our own but there just must be someone somewhere to blame and in that a self righteousness that everything we think and do is right and the best we can do, because of the others who are to blame perchance ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 9:48:44 AM

kdsub

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Aneirin I am a charitable person...I believe in the need for welfare programs...but I also believe in personal responsibility. There are the truly needy then there are the leeches that will do their best to pick your pocket and mine. There is nothing wrong with trying to help one and deny the other.

I do agree there are those that want to deny their own part in keeping people in poverty for their own personal gain. Claiming they are lazy with no ambitions...despicable.

But don’t you agree there are just as many if not more, that refuse to take personal responsibility for their life situation and blame those around them better off for their problems?

We must do our best to help but encourage self reliance with dignity.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Aneirin)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 10:11:55 AM

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Thanks for the link kdsub. This system was set in place in 1996. I would be interested to see how well its worked.

This part of the link made a lot of sense

Many of the new approaches require subjective judgments. A human being has to decide when individual recipients are, say, ready for work and should be cut off from assistance. By and large, those responsibilities are falling to welfare caseworkers – who in the past did little more than hand over checks.

We don't yet have a system that works out each and every individual case.

This didn't

Require most recipients to work within two years of receiving assistance,
Limit most assistance to five years total.

I personally feel that a woman should have the right to work, even if they have small children, providing she has made reasonable provisions but no woman with a small child should be forced to go out to work. That, in my opinion, is stealing the hand that rocks the cradle.

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S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 10:22:58 AM

kdsub

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Just as I think some of our provisions may help your system I believe some of yours would help ours...Ideas are best shared.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to allthatjaz)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 10:23:17 AM

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From: Tamaris
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Then such programs would do better to raise a person's expectation and belief in themselves and their natural abilities rather than just punish them for having the audacity to be poor and taking advantage of a system that ensures they remain in poverty.

But that, it is a tall order, for it is known many of those who are poor have received the life education that they are despised by many a decent person, for what they have been told by those in a position of authority.

For example, many of those I know whom like myself claim welfare only live from day to day, they have no dreams to aspire to and in some cases dont care if they live or die, hence their living for the day mentality and all that it brings.

Myself, I have seen a way out of this perpetual sentence, for I have at last regained some of the confidence I had in the natural skills that once proved useful, and that smidgen of confidence was augmented by others, people who are in employment and with dreams and aspirations for the future, the employed helped me by offering good words and offers of help to get me on my feet, not offers of money, but action, they themselves are devoting their time and their skills to lift me up from the government ceated poverty trap for free, positive action by those who do not kow tow to the lies of the government and their pet the corporate media,

The poverty trap is real and unrelenting, it rots the mind and destroys the spirit and it keeps many a civil servant in employment, as no one ever considers that aspect of welfare do they, the people that find employment in operating the poverty trap, a thing every government needs or else face the redundancy of yet more many thousands of civil servants who will be surplus to requirements if those of welfare were encouraged to get jobs.

So, the unemployed and poor are in fact a requirement, they are needed for others employment, but the very least the government can do if the poor on welfare are a necessary evil, is stop giving them a bloody hard time, as it is bad enough living an enforced half or none life.

As to attacks on child benefit, does anyone really think child benefit is a reason to have children ? Thirty bucks per week for the first child and twenty bucks per week for a second child and thereafter, wow, just think of the lifestyle one could have on that, surrounded by kids on the want, their clothing and feeding needs, transportation and everything else that comes with having a child in modern society.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: UK Poor encouraged to breed - 12/1/2010 10:35:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I find it is always a safe option for the mighty to attack those that cannot defend themselves as the reason for anything they perceive as being a failure, you will notice, there is always someone to blame, someone, a sector of society where the finger is pointed, I ask, just what does that say about our society ?

quote:

Butch
We must do our best to help but encourage self reliance with dignity.

The highest percentage of single mums claiming benefits are teenage mums.

All this extra sex education and access to condoms that was set in place by Labour have made absolutely no difference to teenage pregnancies and yet the new government seems to be heading down the same line on extra sex education.
Promiscuity is on the up and no amount sex education seems to be able to stop that. It has failed since the making of Eve!
Perhaps we should be looking into the roots of promiscuity and what can be done at a conscious moral level? I’m not talking religious morals but when it comes to getting pregnant and choosing to have the baby, family values and a fathers worth. Perhaps we should be concentrating our efforts more on the hardships of bringing a baby up on your own, the lost youth, the loss of choices, the poverty trap etc, etc.

For those women that have a choice, what is in place to entice a young woman to remain with the babies father? Men are no longer the breadwinners because there’s not enough employment to go round, especially for the working classes. One salary isn’t enough if you are on a minimum wage. Family tax credits are available but a mountain of paperwork needs doing and because they don’t make it easy, half of those entitled to FTC never put in a claim. No wonder living on benefits could be far more enticing.
When Labour policies focused on state handouts, they concentrated their efforts in getting mothers into work rather than the men who can support them. In my opinion, this doesn’t solve the problem of why so many women now choose to go it alone.

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S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to Aneirin)

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